Reworked balance made a massive overall damage nerf. How to complete high level content?

PlumpOrange

Hello, this HOTR patch has brought many changes into a game. To be honest, those changes seem very logical: stamina classes are fragile and vulnerable but do really high damage, magica classes have a huge amount of saving stuff like shields and range distances (my kisses to mDKs, my healer's heart tears on peaces when I see our mDK near the last vHOF boss ) but less damage, trial mechanics supposes very balanced stam/mag team because of the melee DDs limits, everything seems right, but...

This shiny picture was reached by nerfing mag classes. I do understand that game developers want to make game easier for casual players just to make them more comfortable with their DPS performance because players get mad easily like "hey, kick him, 15k dps, LTP noob!", and this patch made crafted sets great again, but the real fact is that the developers should BUFF the casual players, not to NERF good ones. If you want stam classes to perform better - BUFF them, do not NERF the mag class.

The struggle is real because of the high level content. Our team was preparing for vMOL hardmode, our DDs were reaching 39-42k DPS on mag classes and over 43k on stam, and this patch on PTS was a real enjoyment (43+ mag and 45-47 stam!! WOW!), and then... Then HOTR came out. With all those nerfs. Even HODORs have troubles with hard mode run, so... This content was quite able to complete in Homestead, it became really hard in Morrowind, is it just unfair to make it even harder for players.

I feel terrible because we were preparing really hard, and now it will take more time to rebuild.Really unfair: it was way easier in Homestead with 50+k DPS and is it even possible now with 37-40k?! Why don't just UP stam classes without nerfing mag?

Feels so bad that I even started to cry on forums, meh...

Marabornwingrion

It's terrible that they are making huge changes to classes and sets every 3-6 months (which are usually lowering our dps), but leaving mobs and bosses in trials and arenas without any changes (they have still the same HP and resistances).

Nebthet78

It's why I no longer put Money into this game any more or really do much of the content. Tired of having any progress I made, to be able to do end game content taken away because the elite 1% can blow through it, and the devs overreact and nerf everyone without actually rebalancing the content to match.

Feanor

Top raid groups (I mean the ones which still play the game and have not quit already) struggle with content? I don't think so. For progression groups it may be harder again, yes. But then the whole "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mantra never was more than a cover up for the mishandled design choices.

Ulfgarde

I think end-game progression guilds are doing just fine despite the changes.

Hate to say it, but MMOs are MMOs. Things like meta nerfs and power creep are to be expected. Look at how vMA weapons are nearly useless except for the bows. It's just something everyone has to accept.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

It's why I no longer put Money into this game any more or really do much of the content. Tired of having any progress I made, to be able to do end game content taken away because the elite 1% can blow through it, and the devs overreact and nerf everyone without actually rebalancing the content to match.

I would say it's the opposite. Casual players who have never even run vet dungeons complain about everything, and ruin the meta for everyone else. The person who runs a bow and 1h&s in a normal dungeon and does 5k dps, yet complains about the healer on the forums, has much more voice than the 43k dps hero running vHoF hm every moment. The game is tuned for casuals for sure. If it wasn't, maybe we'd have a lot more people than 200 or so on the leaderboards.

That aside, if you aren't ready to accept the dynamic nature of MMOs, maybe this game isn't for you.

ccfeeling

There is no similar game in the market wth!
I will jump once it comes out asap
I wont spend any money to this game , hell lag , what type of megaservers , dang lag and suck

dpencil1

Long boss fights were always supposed to be about coordination with regard to various fight mechanics and challenging players to make as few mistakes as possible over a sustained duration. In Homestead, you could burn through boss fights so fast that these elements were largely inconsequential. So ZOS took on this problem on two fronts. First with HoF with boss fight design that made it impossible to do a straight burn, and second with Morrowind and HotR changes to lower the ceiling of what top end players could acheive. Raising the floor largely came from the rebalanced to the CP system, so that those first points would count for more than the last, and also bringing many sets/traits more in line with each other so that there is less of a barrier of needing one particular set or trait to complete higher level content.

Im not saying ZOS has executed this perfectly, but their intention seems to be sound.

theamazingx

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Buffs mostly offset the minor nerfs, I'd put the loss at 5% max. My magdk is parsing higher than before, 38k with fire wall and up to 41 with lightning, and seeing the results on Rakkhat and Mage quite well. And you cite Hodor as even having issues with vmolhm, but the video those posted titles something along the lines of "First Run After Patch" was a relatively smooth <25min run. If you really lost that much, buckle up and learn lunar phase, it's really not that hard.

Magdalina

Astrid_V wrote: »

It's terrible that they are making huge changes to classes and sets every 3-6 months (which are usually lowering our dps), but leaving mobs and bosses in trials and arenas without any changes (they have still the same HP and resistances).

Do we have any data to back that one up? I gotta say I might be slightly out of touch with top tier raiding lately as I haven't been running Trials forever, but I was under distinct impression our dps has steadily been going up, not down. Not sure on HotR yet - I think people are still working out BiS for all classes/builds after those last minute live changes - but I remember the days when 20k dps was viewed as great and 40k was like godmode op amazing burst dps and then I remember people hitting 40k dps solo on Robust skeletons just fine, with people posting Trials runs with 50-60-70k dps...

Alpha83

theamazingx wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Buffs mostly offset the minor nerfs, I'd put the loss at 5% max. My magdk is parsing higher than before, 38k with fire wall and up to 41 with lightning, and seeing the results on Rakkhat and Mage quite well. And you cite Hodor as even having issues with vmolhm, but the video those posted titles something along the lines of "First Run After Patch" was a relatively smooth <25min run. If you really lost that much, buckle up and learn lunar phase, it's really not that hard.

No way ... good sets like necropotence lost almost 1k magicka (which is actually like 1.5k magicka after % magicka increase). The thief + shadow mundus stones were almost universally used by DPS characters, and both got MASSIVE nerfs. This effectively ruined the Twice Born Star (TBS) crafted set.

Everyone that spent time + money to get full gold TBS gear just got screwed royally.

I'd argue this is at least a 10-15% dps nerf across the board. Crafted sets like Julianos were never top tier, and they're now very competitive despite not being changed at all.


This patch really screwed over PvE dps in a bad way. It's shameful, punishing players for doing well at the game.

theamazingx

Magdalina wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

It's terrible that they are making huge changes to classes and sets every 3-6 months (which are usually lowering our dps), but leaving mobs and bosses in trials and arenas without any changes (they have still the same HP and resistances).

Do we have any data to back that one up? I gotta say I might be slightly out of touch with top tier raiding lately as I haven't been running Trials forever, but I was under distinct impression our dps has steadily been going up, not down. Not sure on HotR yet - I think people are still working out BiS for all classes/builds after those last minute live changes - but I remember the days when 20k dps was viewed as great and 40k was like godmode op amazing burst dps and then I remember people hitting 40k dps solo on Robust skeletons just fine, with people posting Trials runs with 50-60-70k dps...

Everyone took a hit with the sustain changes of Morrowind and it's mostly been sidegrading since then. Now people have to run stam to hit those numbers, since they compensate better with fast and hard hitting heavies, which requires meeting a steeper mechanics check in most fights to survive. The majority of complaints about nerfs are from sorcs that used to get what they considered high dps while afk with 20k shields on demand.

theamazingx

Alpha83 wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Buffs mostly offset the minor nerfs, I'd put the loss at 5% max. My magdk is parsing higher than before, 38k with fire wall and up to 41 with lightning, and seeing the results on Rakkhat and Mage quite well. And you cite Hodor as even having issues with vmolhm, but the video those posted titles something along the lines of "First Run After Patch" was a relatively smooth <25min run. If you really lost that much, buckle up and learn lunar phase, it's really not that hard.

No way ... good sets like necropotence lost almost 1k magicka (which is actually like 1.5k magicka after % magicka increase). The thief + shadow mundus stones were almost universally used by DPS characters, and both got MASSIVE nerfs. This effectively ruined the Twice Born Star (TBS) crafted set.

Everyone that spent time + money to get full gold TBS gear just got screwed royally.

I'd argue this is at least a 10-15% dps nerf across the board. Crafted sets like Julianos were never top tier, and they're now very competitive despite not being changed at all.


This patch really screwed over PvE dps in a bad way. It's shameful, punishing players for doing well at the game.

Necro's total magicka mostly stayed the same. The buff to stat bonuses applied to it's 2, 3, and 4 set bonus. Julianos was changed, all crit bonuses were buffed. TBS has been bad for a long time. Apprentice/Warrior now work quite well instead of thief. Did you actually read the patch notes?

casparian

Alpha83 wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Buffs mostly offset the minor nerfs, I'd put the loss at 5% max. My magdk is parsing higher than before, 38k with fire wall and up to 41 with lightning, and seeing the results on Rakkhat and Mage quite well. And you cite Hodor as even having issues with vmolhm, but the video those posted titles something along the lines of "First Run After Patch" was a relatively smooth <25min run. If you really lost that much, buckle up and learn lunar phase, it's really not that hard.

No way ... good sets like necropotence lost almost 1k magicka (which is actually like 1.5k magicka after % magicka increase). The thief + shadow mundus stones were almost universally used by DPS characters, and both got MASSIVE nerfs. This effectively ruined the Twice Born Star (TBS) crafted set.

Everyone that spent time + money to get full gold TBS gear just got screwed royally.

I'd argue this is at least a 10-15% dps nerf across the board. Crafted sets like Julianos were never top tier, and they're now very competitive despite not being changed at all.


This patch really screwed over PvE dps in a bad way. It's shameful, punishing players for doing well at the game.

But no one should have been spending time or money to get gold TBS, at least not since One Tamriel or earlier. That hasn't been a recommended endgame DPS set for a very long time. What "ruined" TBS wasn't any change to mundus stones, but the change to Warhorn several patches ago.

Alpha83

theamazingx wrote: »

Necro's total magicka mostly stayed the same. The buff to stat bonuses applied to it's 2, 3, and 4 set bonus. Julianos was changed, all crit bonuses were buffed. TBS has been bad for a long time. Apprentice/Warrior now work quite well instead of thief. Did you actually read the patch notes?

I did read the patch notes, and I'm speaking strictly in terms of relative 5-piece set bonuses. As you said, they buffed the 2-4 set piece bonuses, so this effectively cancels out across the board. Thus, comparing sets need only be done at the 5-piece bonus level.

And both of us did our math incorrectly:

Old Necropotence: 3*967+4000 =6901 magicka
New Necropotence: 3*1097+3150 = 6438 magicka

So the new necropotence set received roughly a 500 magicka nerf (~750 after bonus magicka % increase from various sources). That's still a substantial nerf. That's nearly half a 2-4 piece set bonus of magicka gone.

Spinner set lost 600 magicka penetration -- 1.2% damage nerf right there.

And people still used TBS for thief + shadow.

theamazingx

Alpha83 wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Necro's total magicka mostly stayed the same. The buff to stat bonuses applied to it's 2, 3, and 4 set bonus. Julianos was changed, all crit bonuses were buffed. TBS has been bad for a long time. Apprentice/Warrior now work quite well instead of thief. Did you actually read the patch notes?

I did read the patch notes, and I'm speaking strictly in terms of relative 5-piece set bonuses. As you said, they buffed the 2-4 set piece bonuses, so this effectively cancels out across the board. Thus, comparing sets need only be done at the 5-piece bonus level.

And both of us did our math incorrectly:

Old Necropotence: 3*967+4000 =6901 magicka
New Necropotence: 3*1097+3150 = 6438 magicka

So the new necropotence set received roughly a 500 magicka nerf (~750 after bonus magicka % increase from various sources). That's still a substantial nerf. That's nearly half a 2-4 piece set bonus of magicka gone.

Spinner set lost 600 magicka penetration -- 1.2% damage nerf right there.

And people still used TBS for thief + shadow.

Yes, a set that only petsorcs use that can't even be used for Mage took a slight nerf. And no, the 5 piece would the the only relative comparison if you were comparing set to set, but your post's comparison was of player to content. And anyone using TBS after the crit multipliers were made additive is gimping themselces to the point balance can't be centered around them. Balance of content to gear is based on performance ceilings, and those have barely dipped a smidge.

Alpha83

theamazingx wrote: »

Yes, a set that only petsorcs use that can't even be used for Mage took a slight nerf. And no, the 5 piece would the the only relative comparison if you were comparing set to set, but your post's comparison was of player to content. And anyone using TBS after the crit multipliers were made additive is gimping themselces to the point balance can't be centered around them. Balance of content to gear is based on performance ceilings, and those have barely dipped a smidge.

Clearly DPS has dipped at the top level. I've noticed it's A LOT more difficult to complete random group vet dungeons since this nerf. I've also noticed my trial guilds have lower DPS and more difficulty. And clearly other PvE trial players are having difficulty as well.

A lot of people are complaining about DPS dropoff since the patch.

theamazingx

Alpha83 wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Yes, a set that only petsorcs use that can't even be used for Mage took a slight nerf. And no, the 5 piece would the the only relative comparison if you were comparing set to set, but your post's comparison was of player to content. And anyone using TBS after the crit multipliers were made additive is gimping themselces to the point balance can't be centered around them. Balance of content to gear is based on performance ceilings, and those have barely dipped a smidge.

Clearly DPS has dipped at the top level. I've noticed it's A LOT more difficult to complete random group vet dungeons since this nerf. I've also noticed my trial guilds have lower DPS and more difficulty. And clearly other PvE trial players are having difficulty as well.

A lot of people are complaining about DPS dropoff since the patch.

Gonna have to give some kind of example. I've seen no dropoff at that level. Only cries of joy for their bright pink damage telegraphs and NB executes that actually work. I'm thinking placebo.

theamazingx

You say "clearly" and "a lot of people" but you're not really giving me anything. Honestly, you lost me when you made up Hodor struggling.

MehrunesFlagon

theamazingx wrote: »

Alpha83 wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Necro's total magicka mostly stayed the same. The buff to stat bonuses applied to it's 2, 3, and 4 set bonus. Julianos was changed, all crit bonuses were buffed. TBS has been bad for a long time. Apprentice/Warrior now work quite well instead of thief. Did you actually read the patch notes?

I did read the patch notes, and I'm speaking strictly in terms of relative 5-piece set bonuses. As you said, they buffed the 2-4 set piece bonuses, so this effectively cancels out across the board. Thus, comparing sets need only be done at the 5-piece bonus level.

And both of us did our math incorrectly:

Old Necropotence: 3*967+4000 =6901 magicka
New Necropotence: 3*1097+3150 = 6438 magicka

So the new necropotence set received roughly a 500 magicka nerf (~750 after bonus magicka % increase from various sources). That's still a substantial nerf. That's nearly half a 2-4 piece set bonus of magicka gone.

Spinner set lost 600 magicka penetration -- 1.2% damage nerf right there.

And people still used TBS for thief + shadow.

Yes, a set that only petsorcs use that can't even be used for Mage took a slight nerf. And no, the 5 piece would the the only relative comparison if you were comparing set to set, but your post's comparison was of player to content. And anyone using TBS after the crit multipliers were made additive is gimping themselces to the point balance can't be centered around them. Balance of content to gear is based on performance ceilings, and those have barely dipped a smidge.

And to think that I heard a guildie saying he was getting 67k stam with draugur and another set which I don't recall.

Jhalin

My guild has been getting into vet content and even with most parsing just above 25k on a dummy, it's not that hard to complete veteran non-DLC trials. While the new trials are more challenging, they're mostly mechanic heavy and require organization and calm heads way more than outrageous dps numbers

DjMuscleboy02

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Hodor killed the Pinacle Factotum with only going up top one time last week(end)?

Damage is still pretty solid.

Faint_One

I think those Dps before just high by some imbalance attributes，like we know Old sharpend gives us over 10% dps increase but precise only less than 5%.I also feel terrible with dps lose

Cage_Lizardman

The vast majority of us can't get >30k dps. I was almost there with the unintentional IA buff, but that's gone now. I guess I'll never do vMoL ever.

Nemesis7884

i would have less issues with more complex boss fights if the randomness in loot drops werent so high...i think both together just doesnt work well...you can have one or the other imo...if you want to have more challenging dungeons i think a system as in gw2 where you get tokes that you can exchange for the loot you want makes more sense....

rhapsodious

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

The vast majority of us can't get >30k dps. I was almost there with the unintentional IA buff, but that's gone now. I guess I'll never do vMoL ever.

Not with that attitude!

All classes can pull 30k+. You can do it too with enough practice and the right gear. A lot of it at that point is knowledge of mechanics and not dying, since dead DPS is no DPS. I believe in you!

f047ys3v3n

PlumpOrange wrote: »

The struggle is real because of the high level content. Our team was preparing for vMOL hardmode, our DDs were reaching 39-42k DPS on mag classes and over 43k on stam, and this patch on PTS was a real enjoyment (43+ mag and 45-47 stam!! WOW!), and then... Then HOTR came out. With all those nerfs. Even HODORs have troubles with hard mode run, so... This content was quite able to complete in Homestead, it became really hard in Morrowind, is it just unfair to make it even harder for players.

I feel terrible because we were preparing really hard, and now it will take more time to rebuild.Really unfair: it was way easier in Homestead with 50+k DPS and is it even possible now with 37-40k?! Why don't just UP stam classes without nerfing mag?

Feels so bad that I even started to cry on forums, meh...

It is pretty obvious from the short ass leaderboards that probably 2/3 people who were running vet raids pre-morrowind are not now. Hell, they can't even fill the weekly vMA boards anymore. Last week sorc was the only class to fill on PCNA. The bottom line is that there is clearly little interest in creating, or more to the point, maintaining endgame content. the magnitude of their wild vacillations in just about every area of combat balance would prevent content from ever being kept at any kind of compelling difficulty level even if they spent the resources to try to re-balance it every patch to do so, which, they do not. They have now left the mess they made of the very underlying basics of combat (heavy attack scaling) for 6 months. A mess where medium attacks had their damage nerfed but give no resources, heavy attacks were actually buffed in terms of damage/second and give resources and you have a heavy animation that takes 2.2 seconds for a 1.7 second attack. I might also mention that at no point in the design of any of this content were 1.7 second pauses in mechanics for heavy attacks taken into consideration.

It is all a mess and I wouldn't think any of us were even supposed to care about it except that ZOS is now seems intent on spending resources to create lots more content for that end game community that it has shrunk to a rump by deciding not to spend any resources on basic combat issues such as heavy attack scaling. It is all very baffling.

Zos does the strangest and most idiotic things. For instance, for some unknown idea ZOS decided to end the separation strategy on the osara fight in vSO. I guess your just supposed to endlessly get overcharged and poisoned now the whole fight by an overcharger and troll that respawn as soon as you kill them. Right, I'll just sign up for that *** show. I'm probably a little extra salty because I came up with the earliest version of that separation strategy. I should also mention that I had to be told about the change because 1) It's not in the patch notes and 2) I don't raid anymore because the combat system sucks and doesn't mesh at all with the mechanics of the fights as they were designed.

Cage_Lizardman

rhapsodious wrote: »

All classes can pull 30k+. You can do it too with enough practice and the right gear.

Nope. I've had plenty of practice, got gear that Alcast could probably do 40k in, it's not enough.