ESO's Medieval Marketplace

jmrathbun

Having played some other MMOs, and leveled a couple of toons in ESO, I'm puzzled at the devs' decision to keep the marketplace so medieval. To use WoW as an obvious example, the auction house you choose can be alliance-wide or even server-wide. You needn't be part of a "trading guild" and price discovery is very easy, leading to an efficient marketplace that serves the player base relatively well. ESO's markets are very narrowly constructed, making price discovery difficult and opening the door to all sorts of arbitrage that takes advantage of naive players. Some trading guilds elect to pay high fees for traders and that overhead burdens the player base unduly imo. WoW's auction house is even polite enough to warn you before listing an item below its vendor price; on the ESO markets I often see items that sell to a vendor for 5 G being listed around 3.5 G, which makes no sense at all. Am I missing something, or are the devs just stuck in a medieval mindset?

davey1107

The idea is that by limiting the number of sales spots and locating them all over the place, this system creates scarcity that props up the prices for everything and thereby keeps the economy stable.

But more importantly, it prevents mass market manipulation by making the capability to manipulate so cumbersome that barely anyone would bother. Not that people don't...there's just a limit to how much effect one player or one guild can have under this system. I've manipulated prices before on specific items...buying every single one at every guild spot on a Friday morning, then creating a price surge as weekend traffic hits, then offloading the goods at a tidy profit. I won't reveal what I mess with, but we will refer to it by the code name "mirn poot." My ability to do true damage to the economy is limited because I only have five guilds and 30 trade slots in each. It would be boring to devastate the market...but if I had a thousand trade slots I probably could.

So the current system is honestly horribly inconvenient for players, but not the worst economic model in the world. It really does prevent the market from collapsing.

Greydir

Also the weekly overhead for guildtraders serves as a relatively efficient goldsink. That is another factor, that is needed to keep the inflation better in check.

Runefang

It's terrible in my opinion for so many reason, but this has been a point made over many years and it's here to stay.

I guess it's nice for ESO to remain unique though, cookie cutter is for WoW.

Wanderica

I haven't been here for most of ESO's life, but I was here at the beginning, and one of the main reasons I didn't play this game at the time was because of the guild based auction system. Back then, if I recall, you had to be in the guild to even see the listings. At least now, I can use a particular guild's market without having to be in the guild. I agree that it was a huge mistake that Zenimax has been . . . reluctant to change. I disagree with Zenimax that their chosen method benefits players. At best it prevents inflation, but inflation can help newbies as well as helping when low level items go for ridiculous sums of gold.

Honestly, I would prefer a player bazaar system. EQ's bazaar system has changed to a more AH like system, but FFXI has both. FFXI-AH.com searches and lists all player bazaars accross all servers for convenient listing. In the end, I'd be more than satisfied with the current system in ESO if there were a way to search for what I want. As a new player, having to look, literally, all over the world for a level 10 piece of armor seems a touch ridiculous. I'd rather just do without. That hurts the economy, rather than help it.

Taleof2Cities

Wanderica wrote: »

As a new player, having to look, literally, all over the world for a level 10 piece of armor seems a touch ridiculous. I'd rather just do without. That hurts the economy, rather than help it.

A lot of players disagree with your statement ... including myself.

The guild stores are much better than an "Auction House" type system and way better for the economy. Sure, you have to spend some time finding a good deal.

By the way, you outlevel low level gear pretty fast anyway ... especially at level 10. If you can't craft your own set armor (or don't have the gold to pay a crafter), it's best to just use the gear that you pick up in the world.

jmrathbun

Here's one example of how the current marketplace frustrates players:

I want an epic Necropotence necklace. Some people sell them for around 8K, which I would happily pay. A clown by the name of @Mogster123 buys up all he can find and lists them on The Meat Market for 50K. How many hours must I spend checking all the different guild stores to find one before he can? This is the opposite of fun!

FoolishHuman

jmrathbun wrote: »

Here's one example of how the current marketplace frustrates players:

I want an epic Necropotence necklace. Some people sell them for around 8K, which I would happily pay. A clown by the name of @Mogster123 buys up all he can find and lists them on The Meat Market for 50K. How many hours must I spend checking all the different guild stores to find one before he can? This is the opposite of fun!

With a global auction house it would be even easier for these players to buy up the market and control prices. And if everyone could see all prices noone would put them up cheaper anymore at all. There is always players that just sit in town and play stock broker, but an auction house makes it even easier for them and worse for normal players.

jmrathbun

Actually, what happens in a normal marketplace where there's plenty of supply is that sellers undercut each other until the buyers step up. We've seen this in RW E-commerce. "Price Discovery" is facilitated in a global marketplace. I used to have to drive from store to store and make tiresome inquiries to find the best price; now a little spider tells me. That's why I call the ESO marketplace "medieval".

Mureel

I for one, REALLY like it this way.

I think people need to just get over the *Like WOW has...* mentality.

Beardimus

If you use the search function on Auction House @jmrathbun you can read through the various threads over the years where this dead horse is flogged. Which will save this thread also getting out of control with all the same points.

To be clear though, the threads are generally started by those new to ESO and want the experience to be like WOW often referencing it. This is not WOW this is ESO, and many of the players here (those with and without oether MMO experience) categorically do NOT want an auction house.

It would wreck a very interesting and involved part of the game that's unique to ESO and works well - if use correctly.

There are many floors with an auction house, and the only real object to ESO Guild Traders is based around in game lazyiness - i.e. wanting to simplify something - which would wreck a part of the game many enjoy.

As a buyer - reward for effort finding deals.
As a seller - pricing how you want / for demand / in the trader location you have go.

AH is WAY easier to manipulate by any billionaire players of guilds, and it would be faster for them to it - but lets not delve into economics as the experts have waged war on that on all the other threads.

I, and many others, 100% don't want a Auction House.

FoolishHuman

jmrathbun wrote: »

Actually, what happens in a normal marketplace where there's plenty of supply is that sellers undercut each other until the buyers step up. We've seen this in RW E-commerce. "Price Discovery" is facilitated in a global marketplace. I used to have to drive from store to store and make tiresome inquiries to find the best price; now a little spider tells me. That's why I call the ESO marketplace "medieval".

This is also a game and not a real world economy. Look at a game like GW2 where they treat the auction house like a real economy: a few big trading post barons control the market and the drop rates are so low to stabilize the economy that if you want anything at all you have to go gather materials, sell them to the barons just so you can buy the stuff you want from them. Meanwhile the rich don't even leave the cities to get all the BiS gear and cosmetics they could ever want. We don't need a working middle class in a video game.
Diablo 3 took out their auction house for exactly that reason: people would get their gear from the market instead of going out and doing content.

jmrathbun

I joined ESO at launch but dropped out after a few months because there were too many unfinished parts. I've been back in the game for about three months, and much has been fixed... but not the economy, I'm sad to say. I've also played GW2, WoW, and LotRO for comparison. So I plead innocent to charges of noobness. I'm also old enough to recall very clearly the pre-Internet economy in the U.S. and how much things have changed in the past decade.

Here's a recent example:

Two of my favorite bourbon whiskies, Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare, are essentially unavailable in my state due to the state monopoly on liquor sales. One option is to go to a city in a neighboring state and look around the stores there. That would likely cost me three hours. In a few minutes I found three online distributors offering the quantities I wanted. In another few, I was able to determine the total cost with shipping to have six bottles delivered to my door. The ordering process took another couple of minutes. I saved three hours and a tank of gas, and probably enough money to pay for another tank. That's the beauty of a global marketplace!

As for inflation, RW e-commerce utilization has soared in the past decade. Where's the inflation? It's in Venezuela, where the government controls the marketplace. Central bankers in more civilized places are scratching their heads and trying everything they can think of to stimulate inflation, but it's a no-go.

When it comes to accusations of middle-classness, I'll happily plead guilty. In fact, I wish you all a speedy accession thither. I have nearly a million gold sitting idle in my bank. Why shouldn't I have the privilege of spending it on what makes me happy rather than laboring like a prole to farm stuff?

The only ones benefiting from ESO's medieval economics are those who choose to spend their time playing arbitrage. Honest farmers can't get the best prices for their merchandise, and us bourgeois have to pay a luxury tax or waste a lot of time on every purchase.

It's a sad situation, and that people defend it reflects a distressing lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

Beardimus

Great articulation, a little indulgent wording for the context i'm sure, however the whole argument misses many of the points raised previously.

Its asking to dumb down an area of the game many enjoy, because you don't like it / don't want to spend the effort.

If we go that route Dungeons could be made easier, we'd give out Monster shoulders like sweets, vMA would be a cakewalk so casuals can have a BIS staff etc etc etc etc

Trading in game takes minutes if done properly, and is thriving. Joining 3-4 trading guilds gives you instant access to that many from any bank in the game. If you are smart you pick ones in differing capital cities. Then you soon know which out of the way traders are worth a visit for the deals. If you are on PC there are million Add On's to make life simpler if you want to go that far.

If you want it to be like WoW et al - play WoW et al. This is ESO, and its A) not going to change in the shorter term (Mega server complexities have been mentioned) many would be gutted that another area of the game is flattened due to lack of effort in players.

FoolishHuman

jmrathbun wrote: »

I joined ESO at launch but dropped out after a few months because there were too many unfinished parts. I've been back in the game for about three months, and much has been fixed... but not the economy, I'm sad to say. I've also played GW2, WoW, and LotRO for comparison. So I plead innocent to charges of noobness. I'm also old enough to recall very clearly the pre-Internet economy in the U.S. and how much things have changed in the past decade.

Here's a recent example:

Two of my favorite bourbon whiskies, Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare, are essentially unavailable in my state due to the state monopoly on liquor sales. One option is to go to a city in a neighboring state and look around the stores there. That would likely cost me three hours. In a few minutes I found three online distributors offering the quantities I wanted. In another few, I was able to determine the total cost with shipping to have six bottles delivered to my door. The ordering process took another couple of minutes. I saved three hours and a tank of gas, and probably enough money to pay for another tank. That's the beauty of a global marketplace!

As for inflation, RW e-commerce utilization has soared in the past decade. Where's the inflation? It's in Venezuela, where the government controls the marketplace. Central bankers in more civilized places are scratching their heads and trying everything they can think of to stimulate inflation, but it's a no-go.

When it comes to accusations of middle-classness, I'll happily plead guilty. In fact, I wish you all a speedy accession thither. I have nearly a million gold sitting idle in my bank. Why shouldn't I have the privilege of spending it on what makes me happy rather than laboring like a prole to farm stuff?

The only ones benefiting from ESO's medieval economics are those who choose to spend their time playing arbitrage. Honest farmers can't get the best prices for their merchandise, and us bourgeois have to pay a luxury tax or waste a lot of time on every purchase.

It's a sad situation, and that people defend it reflects a distressing lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

How can these economic principles even apply in an economy where goods are created from thin air and people have zero costs of living, there are no envoirmental costs, transport costs, labor costs or natural resource shortages? These comparisons with the real world don't work. If you have played GW2 then you should know how they have to have very low drop rates to not destabilize the economy, heck I've seen some of the barons demand that drop rates get reduced and it got into the very next patch! Getting something rare was a nightmare in that game, you had to buy it from someone else, the drop rates were so low! In ESO if you want a specific item set you go to that dungeon or crafting station that provides it. This is a video game, making people play the content (quests, dungeons, trials) should be the goal of all game design. Gathering wood all day so you can buy stuff from the rich is not entertainment, it's work. Leave that to the real world economies where it belongs.