Buffing Warden DPS in PvE - Please read @ZOS

Vaoh

Everything in this post is meant to be constructive! I definitely tried to be as constructive as possible here. I want to be able to play my Magicka Warden DPS competitively with my Magicka Sorc, as well as any of the other classes. That is all!

The Warden class seems a bit incomplete when you compare it to other classes. This is totally fine considering how many changes other classes have gone through since launch - the Warden will not be an exception to the refining that other classes have endured overtime. Keep in mind, what I've written up here focuses on endgame PvE content, as well as making sure not to buff them in PvP since they are not in any dire need of buffs for that content. When it comes to Overland and most Dungeon content, you can use whatever you want even though the same sentiment exists. It is a totally different scenario in endgame PvE, where class effectiveness truly matters based on role.

Background

What qualifies me to judge the class at all

I have played Magicka Sorc since launch, but have also tried Damage Dealing, aka DPS, on all Class specs. I have been (and for most still am) #1 on all PS4 NA Vet trial Leaderboards and am therefore pretty knowledgeable about everything you can do to be good at dealing DPS in ESO. When Morrowind launched, I mained Magicka Warden for awhile. I can say with certainly it is my favorite class (coolest looking too), though it has proven pretty bad at putting out DPS. Very bad, actually.

***The highest numbers I have seen some of the best players pull against target dummies with their Magicka Wardens (including Healer support for an unrealistic 100% uptime on Moondancer procs, Necrotic Orb synergies, and Ele Drain) is just sad. My Magicka Sorc can pull higher DPS with no Ultimate, no Ele Drain, and with much easier and more reliable rotation that still ends DPS parses at nearly full Max Magicka, plus with increased DPS for execute phases, far better AoE DPS, and slightly better overall group utility.

If I'm not qualified to judge this class at all for DPS, then I don't think there is anyone else who can either tbh. I do know my stuff when it comes to ESO, and a lot of people in-game look up to me and ask me all the time for what I'll be running next patch because I'm apparently reliable when it comes to stuff like that. I took time to write this all up so...... what you'll find in this post is going to be as realistic as possible.

Why it matters in endgame PvE

Participating in endgame PvE content means pitting class specs against each other and determining which ones are best when fulfilling 12 person rosters. You won't take 12 Dragonknights because other classes could perform much better depending on the scenario and you miss out on the tons of meaningful group buffs provided by other classes. Although each of the five classes play different and bring many of their own unique abilities and playstyles to a raid, it is important to choose whichever class spec holds its weight in a given role and optimize as much as possible.

To put it plainly - trials are already difficult enough, and high scores are placed by experienced/optimized groups, so why choose to bring that Hybrid Templar DPS over the Magicka Sorc DPS when one of them is clearly superior at their role? Unless the reason is to purposely bring weak builds during a fun trial run or a skin (carry) run, then there is no point to it as it makes your group weaker before even attempting difficult content.

Why the Warden class turned out this way - Development Team goals

It seems that Wardens had their class skill lines drastically changed sometime midway through development, and in a way that caused their development to become different than the four original classes. Two big hints are given which point to this.

1. Wardens existed as a class in early versions of ESO, but were likely unfinished/not unique enough and weren't ready to make the finished version of ESO at release. Knowing they were a class that long ago tells us they were not Morrowind-related at all when first designed. Cliff Racers, Shalks, Betty Netches.... none of these were even thought of yet. Judging by the focus of Sorcerer on a Shock-based DPS skill tree, and Dragonknights on a Flame-based DPS skill tree, Wardens were definitely given a focused Cold-based DPS skill tree. This builds on to the second point....

2. I won't claim to know a whole bunch about how ZOS functions, but I do know that Wrobel was not the Lead Combat guy when ESO launched (aka when Warden was first developed). It is clear that Wrobel has his own vision for ESO, and when tasked with the development of the Warden class, had different ideas than the former Lead Combat Designer.
Although the Warden class is very cool, Wrobel and the Devs created the a bit Warden differently than the other classes - here is what I mean:

(quoted from this article)

"Wrobel: This was a pillar of the class's design. ESO: Morrowind is a great opportunity for new players to experience The Elder Scrolls Online for the first time, so we wanted a class that was easy to pick up, yet difficult to master. When we came up with the ideas for Animal Companions, Green Balance, and Winter's Embrace, they each had to fit into one of these molds.

We did move some of the Skill Lines around as we were designing them to see what best fit. For example, we were playing with the idea of having Winter's Embrace exclusively deal damage, but when trying to make an entire class' Skill Lines, the other options made less sense for a tanking tree. There are only so many abilities you can make out of mudcrab armor!"

From here, Winter's Embrace was seen originally as a DPS skill line, mirroring Sorcerers and Dragonknights elemental DPS skill lines. Equally as important, they announce that Wardens were going to have one skill line dedicated to each of the three roles, which strays from the design of other classes which tend to draw from all skill lines for all roles.

I'm sure I am pretty off about some of my assumptions, but regardless there are certainly strains of truth here. This is why the Warden turned out how it has, and I don't think ZOS intended it to underperform so badly in any role. (why would they?)

Why Wardens are so behind right now

Where Wardens fall short, and why it's happening so badly to Magicka Wardens

Warden is the only class where you cannot effectively build a *competitve* DPS, since they inherently lack the active and passive skills to be competitive with other classes.

The Warden class is the weakest of all classes when it comes to DPS passives.

Since Magicka DPS specs rely mostly on class active skills, and Stamina DPS rely mostly on weapon active skills, the current situation is easy to figure out. Stamina Wardens are weaker than the other Stamina specs, but can still sort of attempt to compete since they still have many good non-Class skills for DPS. Magicka Wardens are drastically behind in all areas of PvE DPS, and need massive buffs to be made on par to any of the four other Magicka DPS class specs. It ofc needs to happen while not buffing their PvP effectiveness too.

This is actually a lot easier than it sounds, since ZOS has already managed this with the Dragonknight class.

More on that when going over Wardens and how they compare to Dragonknights These two classes have much in common, making it pretty simple as to what is missing.

Wardens vs the other classes, ZOS giving their skill lines "roles"

Given the role-focused skill lines of a Warden, ZOS (as the've said on numerous occasions) chose to build their trees like this:
• Winter's Embrace: Tanking
• Green Balance: Healing
• Animal Companions: Damage Dealing

Other classes cannot be broken down the same way, as each skill one is *generally* meant to fulfill multiple roles rather than a singular role.

Dragonknight
• Ardent Flame: Damage Dealing
• Draconic Power: Tanking
• Earthen Heart: Damage Dealing, Utility

Sorcerer
• Storm Calling: Damage Dealing
• Daedric Summoning: Damage Dealing, slight Healing
• Dark Magic: Utility

Nightblade
• Assassination: Damage Dealing
• Siphoning: Damage Dealing, slight Utility
• Shadow: Damage Dealing, Utility

Templar
• Aedric Spear: Damage Dealing, slight Utility
• Dawn's Wrath: Damage Dealing, slight Utility
• Restoring Light: Healing



Each of the other classes are built with multiple skill trees heavily benefitting DPS and only minor Support bonuses, with a third tree generally devoted to Support.

These are my own observations. It is totally arguable how much these skill lines cater to each role. What is obvious is that Wardens are much more focused on having one skill tree per role, which is exactly as ZOS wanted to do and did develop them for

Warden has been focused into having each skill tree encompass one role. The Warden class skill trees do not properly synergize with each other because they are built around the idea of striving to be different rather than synergize into one class. Healing and Tanking can be generalized into the role of Support, while Damage Dealing is its own category. As a result, Healers/Tanks can both sort benefit a decent amount from both Green Balance and Winter's Embrace, while a Damage Dealer is given just one skill tree to really work with in terms of killing stuff. The Winters' Embrace skill tree should have been a secondary tree for this, but was changed to be exclusively for tanking. We can easily fix this by overhauling that skill line - it's that easy. We already changed one morph (Winter's Revenge) from a tanking skill into a DPS skill. The issue has been proven to be noted by ZOS since they made such a big change (as well as the Piercing Cold change), though the issue is still almost as bad as before the buffs.

Warden Passives - not enough room for DPS

Warden passives are cool, but when compared to what other classes are offering, they simply don't stand a chance for DPS. Most notable is their severe lack of DPS-oriented passives. It's not that ZOS provided bad passives, but that they are spread too thin - certain passives need to be merged in order to allow for necessary DPS passives to be added. Magicka Wardens being weak at Damage Dealing is due both to Passive and Active skills.

Here is a comparison of all passives that benefit each class when specced as Damage Dealer in trials. This is where we find Wardens are severely lacking:

Dragonknight

Strong
• Increase damage of Burning and Poisoned status effects by 66%
• Increase damage of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknights Standard by 3%, and grant 2 seconds of extra duration to them
• Increase damage of Flame and Poison AoE abilities by 6%
• Increase the duration of Earthen Heart ablities by 20%
• Restore 46 Health, Magicka, and Stamina for each point of an Ultimate's cost
• Casting an Earthen Heart ability grants you 990 Stamina
• Grant you group Minor Brutality for 20 seconds on casting a an Earthen Heart ability. When in combat, you will now generate 3 Ultimate every 6 seconds.

Other
• Increase Spell Resistance by 3299



Sorcerer

Strong
• Increase Health and Stamina recovery by 20% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted
• Increase Shock and Physical Damage done by 5%
• Increase Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 2% per Sorcerer ability slotted
• Increase Magicka Recovery by 10%
• Reduce Magicka and Stamina costs by 5%
• Reduce Ultimate Cost by 15%
• Grant you group Minor Prophecy for 20 seconds on casting a Dark Magic skill
• When damaging an enemy under 15% health with Shock or Physical damage, you have a 6% chance to proc Implosion which deals X Shock or Physical damage to the enemy (strong passive execute)

Other
• Your Dark Magic skills (aka Crystal Fragment) will heal you for 8% Max health on striking a target
• Increase Max Health by 8% when a pet is active
• Restore about 1500 Magicka when a pet dies



Nightblade

Strong
• Increase Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 per Assassination ability slotted
• Increase Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 15%
• Increase Max Magicka by 8% if a Siphoning ability is slotted.
• Increase Shadow Ability duration by 15% (Path of Darkness, Consuming Darkness, Veiled Strike buff)
• Increases Critical Damage by 10%, and grants Minor Savagery to your group for 20 seconds when you critically strike an enemy
• Casting a Siphoning skill grants 2 Ultimate, with a 4 second cooldown.
• Drinking a potion grants 20 Ultimate

Other
• Casting a Shadow ability grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, with a 25% duration increase per Heavy Armor piece slotted (a Damage dealer wears 0-1 heavy armor pieces)
• Restore about 2000 Magicka over 6 seconds when you kill an enemy with an Assassination Ability
• Increase Max Health by 3% per Shadow Ability slotted



Templar

Strong
• Increase Critical Damage done and damage against blocking targets by 10% while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted
• Increase Weapon Damage by 6%, Increase Spell Resistance by 2640
• Increase duration of Sun Fire, Eclipse, and Nova by 30%
• Reduce Magicka, Stamina, and Ultimate costs by 4%
• Casting a Dawn's Wrath skill grants 3 Ultimate, with a 6 second cooldown.
• Grant you group Minor Sorcery for 20 seconds on casting a Dawn's Wrath skill
• When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal X Physical or X Magic damage, with a 0.5 seconds cooldown

Other
• Increase damage you can block from melee attacks by 15% while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted
• Increase resurrection speed by 20%



Warden

Strong
• Increase Damage Done by 2% per Animal Companion ability slotted
• Increase Magic and Frost damage by 6%
• Increase Magicka and Stamina recovery by 12% when an Animal Companion ability is slotted
• Casting an Animal Companion skill grants 4 Ultimate, with a 8 seconds cooldown

Other
• When an Animal Companion is killed or unsummoned, you are healed for about 1300 Health
• When healing yourself or an ally, the affected target is granted Minor Toughness for 10 seconds
• When healing yourself or an ally you gain 250 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever resource is lower with a 1 seconds cooldown
• Increase Spell and Physical Resistance by 500 per Winter's Embrace ability slotted
• Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies by 200% with Winter's Embrace abilities

.... and when you play a Warden DPS, it is painfully clear how weak they are compared to other setups.
How do we buff their passives? Well it's easy.
Look to the Dragonknight class.

Huge buffs so Wardens can have competitive PvE DPS, but not be OP in PvP

Taking inspiration from Dragonknights, making Magicka Wardens on par

These two classes are similar. Why are they so similar? Well... neither have an execute!

Dragonknights do not have an execute. Wardens have one, but it is connected to the Bear Ult, which is a double-barred Ultimate and is not taken in trials/endgame PvE since all other DPS ultimates are better in practice for that content. Even when used, it never changes up your rotation and DPS doesn't become much greater like a real execute would cause. Wardens and Dragonknights are the only two classes that put out DPS that stays consistent, while the other three classes (especially Templar) spike in DPS during execute. Although the Bear is awesome against a target dummy, trials are far more complex, and the bear will even die! (zero DPS+no other Ults)

In order to compensate for not having an execute, Dragonknights have amazing sustained DPS. An Ultimate more powerful than Elemental Rage, great DoTs, an insane group buff DoT, and amazing passives to support a Damage Dealer. These make up for their flaws - they must be in melee range to apply all DoTs, and have no execute.

A Warden has the similar flaw of having no true execute. However, they do not have anywhere close to the great DoT DPS that Dragonkights are capable of through both passives and actives. Buffing Wardens has to do with fixing two issues:
1. Overhauling the most confused skill line in the game - Winter's Embrace.
2. Buffing a few Animal Companions skills

As a result, they will not only be worth taking into trials for DPS, but also unique. Right now they feel like a much weaker version of a Sorcerer using the rotation that was used before Velocious Curse became Haunting Curse. These buffs will focus on their *overtime* sustained damage. A Dragonknight immediately applies high DoT damage and sustains it since they do not have an execute. A Warden should work the same way as a Dragonknight, but apply a DoT damage that begins weaker and spikes in damage overtime into a very powerful DoT effect. Doing this will not only work fantastically, but also stop PvP Magicka Wardens from gaining an OP burst skill too. It'll be very impractical and quite bad to try to set up the high DoT damage in PvP.

The actual skill changes I propose....

The goal: Make Magicka Warden DPS on par. There is a loooooong way to go in balance changes before Magicka Wardens can even get close in DPS to the other classes. Stamina Wardens needed help too, and I've definitely made sure to address that in a way that supports PvE as well. I have had an awesome time writing this up, thinking about what Magicka Wardens could be if Frost Damage is embraced like we wanted from the "Ice Mage" class.

Magicka Wardens have good enough burst damage. They can fight a pack of adds that die quick and kill them fast enough to where they are not behind in DPS. Any fight longer than a quick pack of weak enemies is where they already start to fall behind. The goal of the buffs here is to make them on par in a way that drastically increase their overtime sustained DPS. Even more important - have Magicka Wardens actually BE the Ice Mages us RPers and endgame players alike hoped for.

---

The buffs - what Magicka Wardens need to be competitive! (and also very cool )

• Winter's Revenge (morph of Impaling Shards): Give this morph a *small* burst of initial hit damage, equal to 2 ticks of the DoT. The purpose is to increase DPS slightly when not making use of the full duration, since it is usually recasted around the 8-10 second mark in rotations. Causes Winter's Embrace skills to gain 100 Spell and Weapon damage while slotted. Also Fix the bug that is causing this skill to critically strike less than intended.

• Swarm: Increase tooltip damage by 5%. Mainly give this skill a secondary effect of some sort. Right now it is the only DoT in the game with no secondary effect. I propose causing afflicted enemies to deal slightly less damage to the caster, though this secondary effect could be anything. It shouldn't be just a plain DoT.....

• Cutting Dive (Dive morph): Now deals up to 15% increased damage based on your distance from the target. This effect synergizes very well with Stamina when forced away from the target, and specifically buffs Bow builds to help them possibly be viable in endgame

• Screaming Cliff Racer (Dive morph): No longer increase damage based on distance. This morph now has a 25% chance to pierce though the original target and strike a nearby target for X Magic Damage (maybe around 33% of this skill's original damage). This is very nice for people who hate cliff racers in PvP, as those Magicka Wardens casting it from afar will now deal 15% less damage, and you won't have to think about it when using this skill in PvE since you are almost always close to a boss/enemy to get heals. The pierce also makes it more on par with the slight AoE component of Force Pulse.

• Piercing Cold: Grants 2%/5% Frost and Magic damage, and 3%/6% Physical Damage.


****And now for the giant PvE DPS buffs which will hopefully be enough to get Magicka Wardens on par! There are two major buffs that will allow this to happen alongside what I have written above.****

1.
• Arctic Wind: This skill feels very plain. It also doesn't feel like it has two meaningful morphs. Give this skill the Arctic Blast morph as part of the base effect.

• Polar Wind (morph of Arctic Wind): Leave as is. With this morph chosen, the resulting skill will now behave like the current version of Arctic Wind but with both morphs active. A tank can now give out the occasional heal while dealing a small bit of DoT damage which may also aid them in aggroing enemies.

• Arctic Blast (morph of Arctic Wind): It is now a totally different skill and the main buff to help Magicka Wardens be on par. We can coincidentally change this skill into the same skill we saw in the announcement trailer for Morrowind! (here from 1:55 -1:58)

Arctic Blast now scales off of Maximum Magicka and Spell Damage. This skill casts a ball of permafrost that is targeted at an enemy, which deals a burst of Frost Damage (not greater than Dive) to the target and nearby enemies (6m radius), and afflicts on your target a Frost Damage DoT for 8 seconds. All enemies hit by Arctic Blast are afflicted with a debuff that causes them to take 3% increased Cold Damage from all sources for 12 seconds. If the skill is cast on the enemy after 5 seconds, the debuff is increased by another 3%, and the duration is reset to 12 seconds. This debuff can be stacked 5 times, up to 15% increased Cold Damage taken. When the debuff reaches its maximum potential (15%), you are returned 1 Ultimate for every 6 seconds the debuff is active at this strength.

Why? How is it balanced?
The Magicka cost is still high - the same as Arctic Wind. Multiple casts of Arctic Blast by different Wardens will not bypass the 5 second cooldown, and the increased Cold Damage taken debuff still cannot surpass 15%. This balances the skill out very nicely, and causes it to be not so great in PvP, though still potentially useful in a 1v1 if the cost isn't too tough to work with. Wardens are supposed to gain ultimate fast, but this is not possible for PvE DPS since Shimmering shield is not used, so the small Ultimate gain would help them get Ultimate just a tiny bit faster.


2.
• Glacial Presence: Add the effect of Icy Aura onto this passive skill.

• Icy Aura: Dealing Frost Damage gives you a 5%/10% chance to create a subtle aura of frost around your feet that deals X Frost Damage over 2/4 seconds, beginning with a radius of 4 meters and expanding 1 meter each second. This effect can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Dealing Physical Damage gives you a 5%/10% chance to create a subtle aura of cold wind around your feet that deals X Physical Damage over 2/4 seconds, beginning with a radius of 4 meters and expanding 1 meter each second. This effect can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Increases the duration of all casted abilities that deal Frost Damage or Physical Damage by 1/2 seconds.

The purpose of these changes is to give Wardens an inherent sort of Elfborn set. This makes them more unique, and especially helps out Stamina Wardens too. That small AoE passive gives them better melee range DPS which helps their close range AoE DPS as well. Overall, it creates more options AND mainly allows non-warden Cold Damage skills (Ice Comet, Ice Destruction Staff skills) to be worth using and quite good.




A nice quality of life buff for Tanks:

• Frozen Gate: Apply the the Frozen Device morph effect to this skill.

• Frozen Retreat (morph of Frozen Gate): Leave as is.

• Frozen Device (morph of Frozen Gate): Reduces the range, but now casts the rune under a selected target, and reduces the rune arming time to 1 second. This should help PvE tanks quite a bit in pull targets in. I know many tanks who would love this change, since it would behave very much like a Dragonknight's chain pulling utility. The current version is awesome but gets messy in raids and especially at longer distances.



These buffs all around sound like a lot, but if you have tried to play a Magicka Warden DPS before, or compared a Stamina Warden with other Stamina DPS under the same conditions, you won't find these changes too OP at all. They'll seem (hopefully) interesting and strong enough to make Wardens an option for the Damage Dealer role. On top of this, they don't have any Critical Damage buffs, so those Horns of the Reach 2/3/4 piece buffs don't give them the extra push that certain other *already viable* DPS class specs are getting. We create Ice Mages AND viable Warden DPS for endgame PvE. Please ZOS....

Morrowind DPS Tests - Sorc vs Warden

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1AUm9sJrNw

---

INFO

Sorcerer Tests:

Sorcerer Test 1
(00:02 - 03:25) - 30.5K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka Food

Sorcerer Test 2
(03:26 - 06:29) - 33.2K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka
- Elemental Drain

Sorcerer Test 3
(06:30 - 09:42) - 31.9K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka/Magicka Recovery Food

Sorcerer Test 4
(09:43 - 12:43) - 34.2K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka/Magicka Recovery Food
- Elemental Drain

Sorcerer Test 5
(12:44 - 15:24) - 39.2K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Necropotence, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka
- Elemental Drain , Volatile Familiar

Sorcerer Test 6
(15:25 - 18:14) - 37.7K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Necropotence, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka/Magicka Recovery Food
- Elemental Drain , Volatile Familiar

Sorcerer Test 7
(18:15 - 20:54) - 39.9K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Necropotence, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka
- Elemental Drain , Volatile Familiar , Twilight Tormentor

---

Warden Tests:

Warden Test 1
(20:55 - 24:32) - 29.3K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka Food

Warden Test 2
(24:33 - 27:55) - 32.2K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka
- Elemental Drain

Warden Test 3
(27:56 - 31:55) - 30.5K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka/Magicka Recovery Food
- Elemental Drain

Warden Test 4
(31:56 - 35:00) - 34.5k DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka Food
- Elemental Drain , Eternal Guardian

Warden Test 5
(35:01 - 37:52) - 32.1K DPS
- 2x Ilambris, 5x Julianos, 4x Moondancer
- Max Health/Max Magicka/Magicka Recovery Food
- Elemental Drain , Eternal Guardian

---

Compared Results:
Max Health/Max Mag , no Ele Drain
- Warden Test 1: 29.3K DPS
- Sorcerer Test 1 (no pet/curse): 30.5K DPS

Max Health/Max Mag , Ele Drain
- Sorcerer Test 5: 39.2K DPS
- Warden Test 2: 32.2K DPS
- Sorcerer Test 2 (no pet/curse): 33.2K DPS

Max Health/Max Mag/Mag Recov , Ele Drain
- Sorcerer Test 6: 37.7K DPS
- Sorcerer Test 4: 34.2K DPS
- Warden Test 3 (no pet/curse): 30.5K DPS

---

NOTES:
- Damage (Blue) CP Setup was 56 Elfborn, 56 Elemental Expert, 23 Spell Erosion, 75 Thaumaturge. Gear, passives, and everything was consistent between both classes which likewise plays to their best performance. All gear is gold, sharpened, divines, etc.... all purely BiS and playing to the maximum performance of each class spec.
- I stayed 15-17 meters away from the target skelton on Magicka Warden tests to give Screaming Cliff Racer 15% more damage done..... this would be much weaker in most actual fights
- Magicka Sorcerer rarely ever needs to take off their Volatile Familiar, meaning the Pet Sorc parses are the most accurate parses to compare with in actual combat scenarios
- Haunting Curse or Boundless Storm would have increased non-pet Magicka Sorcerer DPS by a lot, but I slotted Inner Light to keep things more consistent in terms of skill slotting as well as the fact that you will likely not want to change morphs to Haunting Curse when you mainly slot a pet anyway.....and also sometimes you can't get close enough to make use of Boundless Storm
- A Magicka Sorcerer deals much higher AoE Damage than a Magicka Warden, and provides Minor Prophecy to the whole group while a Warden provides nothing.
- A Magicka Warden can slot Eternal Guardian to boost single target DPS by a decent amount, but it is *artifical* DPS..... you cannot slot this skill in actual trials or endgame scenarios since you need you Northern Storm+Elemental Rage combo. Slotting the bear means you will constantly have to resummon it (always dies), have no powerful AoE Ult to use, and must complicate your rotation to make use of. That bear will only be useful against a target dummy.
- A Magicka Sorcerer rotation is much easier to make use of and is is consistently pulled off flawlessly in lag, whereas a Magicka Warden rotation is far harder to not mess up due to the clunky nature of it and can even miss the target (Deep Fissure).

Overall, Magicka Warden is seriously behind Magicka Sorcerer, and their is zero reason to bring one as a DPS. As of Morrowind they are drastically behind all Magicka Specs. My Magicka Warden parses are the highest solo you will be able find, yet they are crushed by my Magicka Sorcerer parses which can still be increased further and match up to around the same numbers as Magicka DKs/NBs/Templars.

BUFF/OVERHAUL WINTER'S EMBRACE. ty

I only wrote this post up because I like the Warden class most, and want to be able to use a Magicka Warden DPS as effectively as I can any other class spec. Please let them be useful as DPS! Right now you get laughed at for attempting to bring one as a DPS into a trial.... like c'mon

This is my feedback, coming from the perspective of probably one of the best "Mag Warden DPS" on my platform. Warden Tanks and Warden Healers are luckily pretty great at their roles as a whole.
I can wait for buffs to make the class on par as long as I know they'll eventually come. As awesome as Wardens turned out to be, I now get depressed whenever I load up my poor Magicka Warden DPS to feed the horse..... @Wrobel

EDIT: Added Morrowind DPS Tests to show just how far behind Magicka Wardens are in terms of pure single target DPS.

Yamenstein

So much to read. I have yet to play a magicka warden but tell me if I'm wrong. My understanding was that they are the jack of all trades? If they require a buff to be a bit more competitive when it comes to DPS but at the same time not meet the expectations of other classes who can't tank and heal. You yourself just said that a warden healing and tanking ate great at their role, so they can effectively heal and tank - maybe not tank as well as a DK but they can heal better. Or maybe not as great as healing as a templar but they can tank better possibly?

I don't see why the DPS of a warden should match the DPS of the other classes, unless you are happy to give up other benefits that they get to make up for it.

Or they had all classes have a tanking, dps and healing tree.

Just my opinion

ArchMikem

Winters Embrace getting a big dps overhaul i will definitely support. My Ice Mage is starving for some power.

SoLooney

mag warden is weak compared to other mag dps classes. the only skill i like on it is deep fissure. they need a buff, currently only play mine for vma weekly rewards, will never take it in vet trials

NordSwordnBoard

I dislike how tri-focus leaves ice with tanking only. Perhaps a small percentage of bonus damage towards both single target and aoe would work. This is a big reason for making my magwarden strictly PvP once undaunted is leveled up.

On the other hand, I do like the idea of trying the frost staff aggro for proc sets like vanguard in PvP.

seedubsrun

I think balancing a buff to warden DPS with not making it too powerful in PvP will be hard for Zos without some really major changes. Any buffs to the damage output of the Animal Companion line will have PvP people crying nerf. The burst is already pretty solid for that it just falls short in PvE. The Frost skill line needs more DPS options to really utilize the passives but then the problem becomes, are they taking away from frost tanking by changing skills to DPS or if they just add damage to some skills that don't have it are they making them too strong? I'd be ok with them reducing the magic damage but adding frost damage to the magicka morphs so they did both. That wouldn't make them too OP in PvP but would give Frost Mage DPS a chance and all those cold damage sets a use.

There's some issues that should be easier to work out like Fetcher not counting as a dot properly. They could also buff some skills like Bird of Prey's duration. 10 seconds is too short to make it useful in my opinion.

I agree that tri-focus only benefiting tanking is one problem. I'd like to see the snare come back. I'd be more into an adjustment to the Ancient Knowledge passive maybe it could give a bump to crit chance or crit damage since single target and AOE damage are covered by the other two.

SodanTok

Funny thing is the class is actually not split 1/3 for tanking, healing, dps. There are 5 healing skills plus ultimate in healing tree. In tanking tree there are 4 tanking skills plus ultimate with 1 tanking healing skill and one potential magicka DPS morph. In DPS tree there are 3 (2 for stam warden) damage skills plus ultimate and two support skills. Sure these support skills increase your damage, but pve wise those are are all redundant buffs.

Not that these 2 supportive skills are bad, they are great in pvp and pve, but they should have been in those two other trees. I am sure no warden healer or tank is using all healing or tanking skills this class offers, yet all DPS wardens use everything and even that is not enough.

Same case for passives.

Mojmir

too much healing,bear is just bad, animations are slow, needs more cowbell.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Honestly, the only thing they could do is rework ice staves and the winters embrace tree. But, that would be a lot of wasted money so obviously that's not gonna happen.

WuffyCerulei

I think the Shalk skill needs the sorc treatment with a longer time before it goes off or a cost reduction. Also, Dive needs a shorter animation time whilst being dodgeable for pvp's sake.

Artis

So how much DPS do they pull? And the buff is needed because their DPS is weaker than others', not because it's not enough "in vacuum", right?

I get they pull enough to get the job done and complete content, right? I mean, I cleared dungeons, vHoF in particular with a warden DPS in group. He's still on a leader board right now (Duhh, it's almost empty lol). We even tried HM that night and had 3% left.

Vaoh

Artis wrote: »

So how much DPS do they pull? And the buff is needed because their DPS is weaker than others', not because it's not enough "in vacuum", right?

I get they pull enough to get the job done and complete content, right? I mean, I cleared dungeons, vHoF in particular with a warden DPS in group. He's still on a leader board right now (Duhh, it's almost empty lol). We even tried HM that night and had 3% left.

You have the four base game classes dealing (within a small range) the same general DPS as each other, with many different benefits they provide. You can run any of them as DPS and still pull nice numbers which is awesome. Good balancing as you can pretty much play whatever you like and not let down your group. Only in the most optimal group compositions will it be an issue to play whatever you want.

Warden is not included here unfortunately, since they are that far behind. They simply aren't given the skills in their skill trees to do it. I detailed this in my original post..... I know it was a super long post but I did a large comparison of DPS passives in one area.

As for your Warden DPS.... well good on him for liking the class, but the purpose is to be as effective as possible. By choosing Magicka Warden, he pulled very low DPS compared to what everyone else was pulling unless everyone else was really bad and he was amazing. I don't say this negatively btw. This is all honesty since it is literally impossible to defend Warden DPS atm which is horrible.

To put it in perspective, you could take a CP5 Hybrid Templar into vHoF and still clear it. Would Hybrid Templar DPS be competitive if this happened? Obviously it is a no, and although your Magicka Warden wasn't nearly as drastically weak as a CP5 Hybrid Templar, the point is that anyone can get through vHoF since it is a group effort. By saying Magicka Warden is fine because your friend cleared vHoF with it is equivalent of saying the entire game is 100% perfectly balanced since anything can be tested the same way.

Take your friend's Magicka Warden to a test dummy and see how much DPS they pull. Afterward, compare it to what any other class can pull. If both tests are done by very good players and under the same conditions (buffs, debuts, etc), then the difference in DPS will be tremendous, all while the Warden fails to provide much group support at all. This is all inherent to the Warden since they literally lack the ability from their class skill trees to put out the same damage other classes can.

Judging how "good" a class is at dealing damage is only possible by comparing it to the competition it faces. If your friend is a great player, they could pull significantly more DPS on another Magicka spec. Again, there is no bashing here - Warden doesn't have the toolkit available to them to put out the same damage. It's impossible until ZOS makes some major changes.

Also I'll post some parses to give you an idea of what I mean. Feel free to request how you'd like me to test if you want to show it best. My DPS tests will be done on Magicka Warden and Magicka Sorc.

Artis

Vaoh wrote: »

As for your Warden DPS.... well good on him for liking the class, but the purpose is to be as effective as possible. By choosing Magicka Warden, he pulled very low DPS compared to what everyone else was pulling unless everyone else was really bad and he was amazing. I don't say this negatively btw. This is all honesty since it is literally impossible to defend Warden DPS atm which is horrible.

To put it in perspective, you could take a CP5 Hybrid Templar into vHoF and still clear it. Would Hybrid Templar DPS be competitive if this happened? Obviously it is a no, and although your Magicka Warden wasn't nearly as drastically weak as a CP5 Hybrid Templar, the point is that anyone can get through vHoF since it is a group effort. By saying Magicka Warden is fine because your friend cleared vHoF with it is equivalent of saying the entire game is 100% perfectly balanced since anything can be tested the same way.

Thanks, perfect. So effective is not a binary thing, and you probably use as a synonym to the word efficient (like some others). Will it be competitive no? Never said that. But it has enough to get the job done.

I understand that perspective.

Oh, that just reminded me about a friend who would like to know this information. He thinks that as long as the job is done - it's all good. Even if a french hammer isn't competitive with a german hammer, it's still a hammer and gets the job done.

So @hmsdragonfly which Vaoh do you agree with? The one from the past that said it wasn't effective period? Or the one who just said "not as effective" and "competitive"? Because there definitely is at least 1 mWarden DPS that I know of. With a good score (for now), too. And that's after 2-3 HM pulls, which, as you know take like 15 mins each. So the score could be higher.

And using your "definition" effective = can produce desired or intended result. Which it did - we intended to clear vhof and succeeded (see the leaderboard). Even got HM to 3% in a couple pulls - and that was the first night trying. Would clear it if we had more time, will do in the nearest future. So it's effective. But you agreed with Vaoh when he said it wasn't effective period. Sounds like hypocrisy. But furthermore - now looks like "effective" that he means is not binary. Because if it was, one couldn't say "as effective as something", and if it wasn't - then you wouldn't see what you can see now on PC NA leader board. Absolutely the same argument was about non templar healers - they can heal and regen resources, so they are effective. Score didn't matter, hence it doesn't matter now too - something can be effective without being competitive. But for some reason you agreed with something that contradicted this.

Vaoh wrote: »

Take your friend's Magicka Warden to a test dummy and see how much DPS they pull. Afterward, compare it to what any other class can pull. If both tests are done by very good players and under the same conditions (buffs, debuts, etc), then the difference in DPS will be tremendous, all while the Warden fails to provide much group support at all. This is all inherent to the Warden since they literally lack the ability from their class skill trees to put out the same damage other classes can.

Judging how "good" a class is at dealing damage is only possible by comparing it to the competition it faces. If your friend is a great player, they could pull significantly more DPS on another Magicka spec. Again, there is no bashing here - Warden doesn't have the toolkit available to them to put out the same damage. It's impossible until ZOS makes some major changes.

Also I'll post some parses to give you an idea of what I mean. Feel free to request how you'd like me to test if you want to show it best. My DPS tests will be done on Magicka Warden and Magicka Sorc.

Yep, that's pretty much what I was saying. It's all about comparison with others. But regarding tremendous difference - that's what I was asking. Since you tested sorc and warden, you would know, but you didn't mention any numbers.

Yes, you were right all along. I remember you created a thread back when MOrrowind was on PTS, saying that Wardens have very few DPS skills and will definitely be behind. I was optimistic and was saying that maybe those skills will be balance and pull similar DPS anyway (maybe a bit less, but that's to be expected, since, you know, fewer skills - easier rotation + more flex slots to use some of the buffs or off heals).

Hopefully, ZOS will get inspired by your ideas and address this. Hoping even more that no class will be preferred over others for any role - that would be ideal.

Liofa

Only ''decent'' Magicka Warden I saw until today was only decent . Not more . Depending on synergies for Moondancer , stupid Bear running around ... Even with highest effort , still bit lower than other Magicka classes .

Even a half decent player can make a comparison between Magicka Sorcerer and Magicka Warden and say that Magicka Sorcerer is better . Not because DPS but because of support and utility it brings . Magicka Sorcerer has much higher contribution to Concussion since they use Shock attacks much more resulting in more group DPS . As I said , best Magicka Warden I saw was running after Orbs to do proper DPS , lowering Alkosh uptime while bringing almost no support to group .

Magicka Wardens need to be somewhat useful to the group . Like Templars giving Minor Sorcery or Sorcerers giving Minor Prophecy . These are just underwhelming small bonuses most group don't even care about . A sorcerer brings fastest clears on backyard running , incredible AOE , amazing Concussion and Off-Balance uptime and survivability . What does a Magicka Warden do ? Nothing . Personally , I don't care if they do low DPS . They need to be useful and be wanted in a team in order to be viable . That is the most important thing . If they did skyrocket DPS like a Stamina DD , they would have their place in a team no matter what but they don't have that too .

To sum up , Magicka Warden needs to be buffed in one of these 2 ways , not both . Either do lot more DPS to be accepted in a group or be useful enough to be wanted in a group and bring some utility and buffs .

I hope ZOS gives this thread some attention and find a way to make Magicka Warden more viable for end-game PvE without making it even more overpowered in PvP ^^

Vaoh

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

As for your Warden DPS.... well good on him for liking the class, but the purpose is to be as effective as possible. By choosing Magicka Warden, he pulled very low DPS compared to what everyone else was pulling unless everyone else was really bad and he was amazing. I don't say this negatively btw. This is all honesty since it is literally impossible to defend Warden DPS atm which is horrible.

To put it in perspective, you could take a CP5 Hybrid Templar into vHoF and still clear it. Would Hybrid Templar DPS be competitive if this happened? Obviously it is a no, and although your Magicka Warden wasn't nearly as drastically weak as a CP5 Hybrid Templar, the point is that anyone can get through vHoF since it is a group effort. By saying Magicka Warden is fine because your friend cleared vHoF with it is equivalent of saying the entire game is 100% perfectly balanced since anything can be tested the same way.

Thanks, perfect. So effective is not a binary thing, and you probably use as a synonym to the word efficient (like some others). Will it be competitive no? Never said that. But it has enough to get the job done.

I understand that perspective.

Oh, that just reminded me about a friend who would like to know this information. He thinks that as long as the job is done - it's all good. Even if a french hammer isn't competitive with a german hammer, it's still a hammer and gets the job done.

So @hmsdragonfly which Vaoh do you agree with? The one from the past that said it wasn't effective period? Or the one who just said "not as effective" and "competitive"? Because there definitely is at least 1 mWarden DPS that I know of. With a good score (for now), too. And that's after 2-3 HM pulls, which, as you know take like 15 mins each. So the score could be higher.

And using your "definition" effective = can produce desired or intended result. Which it did - we intended to clear vhof and succeeded (see the leaderboard). Even got HM to 3% in a couple pulls - and that was the first night trying. Would clear it if we had more time, will do in the nearest future. So it's effective. But you agreed with Vaoh when he said it wasn't effective period. Sounds like hypocrisy. But furthermore - now looks like "effective" that he means is not binary. Because if it was, one couldn't say "as effective as something", and if it wasn't - then you wouldn't see what you can see now on PC NA leader board. Absolutely the same argument was about non templar healers - they can heal and regen resources, so they are effective. Score didn't matter, hence it doesn't matter now too - something can be effective without being competitive. But for some reason you agreed with something that contradicted this.

Vaoh wrote: »

Take your friend's Magicka Warden to a test dummy and see how much DPS they pull. Afterward, compare it to what any other class can pull. If both tests are done by very good players and under the same conditions (buffs, debuts, etc), then the difference in DPS will be tremendous, all while the Warden fails to provide much group support at all. This is all inherent to the Warden since they literally lack the ability from their class skill trees to put out the same damage other classes can.

Judging how "good" a class is at dealing damage is only possible by comparing it to the competition it faces. If your friend is a great player, they could pull significantly more DPS on another Magicka spec. Again, there is no bashing here - Warden doesn't have the toolkit available to them to put out the same damage. It's impossible until ZOS makes some major changes.

Also I'll post some parses to give you an idea of what I mean. Feel free to request how you'd like me to test if you want to show it best. My DPS tests will be done on Magicka Warden and Magicka Sorc.

Yep, that's pretty much what I was saying. It's all about comparison with others. But regarding tremendous difference - that's what I was asking. Since you tested sorc and warden, you would know, but you didn't mention any numbers.

Yes, you were right all along. I remember you created a thread back when MOrrowind was on PTS, saying that Wardens have very few DPS skills and will definitely be behind. I was optimistic and was saying that maybe those skills will be balance and pull similar DPS anyway (maybe a bit less, but that's to be expected, since, you know, fewer skills - easier rotation + more flex slots to use some of the buffs or off heals).

Hopefully, ZOS will get inspired by your ideas and address this. Hoping even more that no class will be preferred over others for any role - that would be ideal.

Ty trying to have as constructive a conversation here as possible.

As mentioned in my original post, all I want is to bring a Magicka Warden into a real trial run instead of a Magicka Sorc and feel like I'm holding my weight the same way. Right now I have to make a conscious decision whether to pull significantly higher damage or significantly lesser damage based strictly on the class, which almost feels a bit selfish unless it's for a Weekly. Also I'm on PS4 NA so I can't check PC NA leaderboards, though I am #1 in vHoF atm on my platform

I have been hyped for Wardens since we datamined their skill lines on One Tamriel PTS, and have pushed for buffs after extensive testing and examination on Morrowind PTS and Live. I could tell they were going to lack damage since they lacked Actives, but I never knew until testing with my fully leveled/specced character just how behind they are....

Major help is needed, so I finally created this thread and tagged Wrobel. There's little else I can do besides enlighten others who are unaware and think Tree Ult heals+Cliff Racers = Warden is completely fine if not OP.

Lmk exactly how you want me to test parses. I have all of the BiS gear right now so I should be able to test whatever is needed. Eventually I'll post a bunch of typical Mag Sorc and Mag Warden parses for comparison. A bit busy atm to get to it but I will.

Artis

Vaoh wrote: »

Ty trying to have as constructive a conversation here as possible.

As mentioned in my original post, all I want is to bring a Magicka Warden into a real trial run instead of a Magicka Sorc and feel like I'm holding my weight the same way. Right now I have to make a conscious decision whether to pull significantly higher damage or significantly lesser damage based strictly on the class, which almost feels a bit selfish unless it's for a Weekly. Also I'm on PS4 NA so I can't check PC NA leaderboards, though I am #1 in vHoF atm on my platform

I have been hyped for Wardens since we datamined their skill lines on One Tamriel PTS, and have pushed for buffs after extensive testing and examination on Morrowind PTS and Live. I could tell they were going to lack damage since they lacked Actives, but I never knew until testing with my fully leveled/specced character just how behind they are....

Major help is needed, so I finally created this thread and tagged Wrobel. There's little else I can do besides enlighten others who are unaware and think Tree Ult heals+Cliff Racers = Warden is completely fine if not OP.

Lmk exactly how you want me to test parses. I have all of the BiS gear right now so I should be able to test whatever is needed. Eventually I'll post a bunch of typical Mag Sorc and Mag Warden parses for comparison. A bit busy atm to get to it but I will.

As somebody who played a class that was at the bottom for more than a year, I can relate

Hey, I didn't want any super strict numbers. Just a usual DPS test with major breech and regen provided. And then maybe share what numbers you typically see in trials playing as a warden and as a sorc.

It's not only for me, I think they would make your case a little stronger. And if combat metrics shows the same ratio of light attacks and skills, then we know you weaved attacks and everything equally good (doesn't have to be strictly equal, just approximately). Maybe even post videos?

The last one I saw was a stam warden doing 42k on a dummy and I heard people are doing 50k+ in trials with them (I think it was about Valariel or some other static fight from old trials? In vhof you don't hit that much typically with all that downtime and resource troubles). That seems like good numbers and higher than what my class can get. But then again - I don't run old trials all the time. I don't care about my score since it gets reset every major update anyway So maybe these numbers aren't impressive.

I don't know the exact up-to-date numbers for magicka wardens.

MisterBigglesworth

Could easily buff PVE damage with minimal impact to PVP by giving Impaling Shards an extra, large damage spike at the end of it's 12 second duration. Nobody's gonna get hit by that in PVP.

Integral1900

I was so hoping for an ice Mage dps, what we got was a sub par magical tank with a taunt that takes over two seconds to get its blasted boots on!

Jack of all trades and master of stuff all, it's fun to use in open world pve or normal dungeons but I don't use it for more than that, it just doesn't have the teeth.

A Templar out heals it

A dragon knight is a vastly superior tank

Everything else does more damage

And the biggest bug bear of all! Because of some whining gits on this forum, instead of that huge underground beast we got three poxy exploding shalk in a line!

WuffyCerulei

My main issues with warden DPS is 2 skills in Scorch and Bird of Prey (Falcon's swiftness morph). Scorch and morphs can do a bit of a damage, but the issue is that for magicka builds, it's a pain to rotate and it's rather expensive for the short time it's up. Subterranean Assault is fine as is, but Deep Fissure needs a change. Keep the damage as is, but remove the single stun and give it Minor Breach and reduced cost.
And Bird of Prey is also too expensive for magicka DPS with too short of an uptime. If it lasted like 5 seconds longer, it would be worth the magicka cost. Compared to grim focus or a healer putting out Combat Prayer, it has limited uses to magicka dps in pve cuz of its cost and short time.

Vaoh

@hmsdragonfly @Artis I'm not sure what's happening here but please keep it out of my thread. Trying to have a really nice discussion thread rn.

No arguments - PM each other if you need to settle things. If possible I'd appreciate it if you both edited out your argument comments here and replaced them with a period like this: "."

I want people to come here and see good discussion and ideas no drama. Very rare to have a truly constructive thread these days. Can't get Dev attention on threads that go south and I put time into my original post!

Ty!

hmsdragonfly

Vaoh wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly @Artis I'm not sure what's happening here but please keep it out of my thread. Trying to have a really nice discussion thread rn.

No arguments - PM each other if you need to settle things. If possible I'd appreciate it if you both edited out your argument comments here and replaced them with a period like this: "."

I want people to come here and see good discussion and ideas no drama. Very rare to have a truly constructive thread these days. Can't get Dev attention on threads that go south and I put time into my original post!

Ty!

He tagged me, then I tried to close that stupid conversation like 5 times. I don't know what else I can do. Maybe I should have just ignored him. I am so sorry. I removed all of my comments.

Vaoh

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly @Artis I'm not sure what's happening here but please keep it out of my thread. Trying to have a really nice discussion thread rn.

No arguments - PM each other if you need to settle things. If possible I'd appreciate it if you both edited out your argument comments here and replaced them with a period like this: "."

I want people to come here and see good discussion and ideas no drama. Very rare to have a truly constructive thread these days. Can't get Dev attention on threads that go south and I put time into my original post!

Ty!

He tagged me, then I tried to close that stupid conversation like 5 times. I don't know what else I can do. Maybe I should have just ignored him. I am so sorry. I removed all of my comments.

Ty. I hope you understand and that @Artis does the same. Regardless of the topic or who's right or wrong, this is one of those few threads where I feel like it could possibly be viewed by Devs (even if not commented on) and perhaps they are inspired to take some sort of action.

Kinda odd of me to ask for both of you to delete comments like that but for once I want Wardens to have a thread that might be productive instead of "Cliff Racer OP" and "Trees are OP" stuff.

Vaoh

@Artis @hmsdragonfly you guys actually both deleted the comments tysm!

Also no worries I will post DPS parses likely over the weekend. My plan atm is to post my usual setups on both classes in Vet trials, and then afterward use exactly the same gear and similar skills. That's as best as I know how to compare without just outright saying that Warden doesn't stand a chance.

Artis

Don't rush, the new update is coming. Maybe it's better to do all that after all the changes go live. Or your numbers will be technically outdated on Monday

Tenofas

From what I can remember, a couple of magicka warden players posted their DPS on test dummies, and they were saying that they could reach a little over 35-36k.

One of them wrote a very nice post about it and recently updated it with a video:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/347997/magicka-warden-pve-dps-hows-it-looking-for-you-and-can-we-make-it-work-in-its-current-state/p1

I am not sure about a buff for magicka warden, personally I love the idea of a class that could easily switch role, from off-tank to off-healing to dps, according to the situations. It would not make sense to have that class to reach top dps too.
But again, I am not an end-game player, I just play casual so my view on this issue is not much relevant.

Edit: forgot! Stamina warden seems to be in much better shape than magicka one. At least this is what I understand from reading forums.

seedubsrun

Keep in mind this was done quickly and some info can be arguable but it's for the most part accurate. Here's class skills that deal damage or passives that increase damage without having to do anything. It also includes skills that deal damage after being morphed:

Templar: 12 skills, 1 w/ morph, 3 passives
Dragon Knight: 14 skills, 1 w/ morph, 3 passives
Nightblade: 10 skills, 2 w/ morph, 3 passives
Sorcerer: 11 skills, 2 w/ morph, 3 passives
Warden: 6 skills, 2 w/ morph, 2 passives

This is without comparing amount of damage and doesn't include skills that when cast increase your weapon or spell damage. It also doesn't take into account passives that extend duration of other skills (which would technically cause them to deal more damage).

As you can see Wardens are way behind in just the ability to put out damage let alone the amount of damage they do put out (i.e. current Fetcher infection bug). The 2 w/ morph skills are also very underwhelming (both Winter's Embrace shield skills, one reflects, one gives very low damage)

Masel

Tenofas wrote: »

From what I can remember, a couple of magicka warden players posted their DPS on test dummies, and they were saying that they could reach a little over 35-36k.

One of them wrote a very nice post about it and recently updated it with a video:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/347997/magicka-warden-pve-dps-hows-it-looking-for-you-and-can-we-make-it-work-in-its-current-state/p1

I am not sure about a buff for magicka warden, personally I love the idea of a class that could easily switch role, from off-tank to off-healing to dps, according to the situations. It would not make sense to have that class to reach top dps too.
But again, I am not an end-game player, I just play casual so my view on this issue is not much relevant.

Edit: forgot! Stamina warden seems to be in much better shape than magicka one. At least this is what I understand from reading forums.

Stamina warden is better than it's magicka counterpart, but it is behind the other stamina specs as well, at least that is what I see on the dummy and I have everything but a stamplar and I can play them fairly well.

For me it is just the passives that need reconsideration. Sorcs have so many great passives for damage dealing, if you look at wardens in comparison, it is just meh. And the stamina warden got it's one nice passive taken away....

seedubsrun

Masel92 wrote: »

Tenofas wrote: »

From what I can remember, a couple of magicka warden players posted their DPS on test dummies, and they were saying that they could reach a little over 35-36k.

One of them wrote a very nice post about it and recently updated it with a video:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/347997/magicka-warden-pve-dps-hows-it-looking-for-you-and-can-we-make-it-work-in-its-current-state/p1

I am not sure about a buff for magicka warden, personally I love the idea of a class that could easily switch role, from off-tank to off-healing to dps, according to the situations. It would not make sense to have that class to reach top dps too.
But again, I am not an end-game player, I just play casual so my view on this issue is not much relevant.

Edit: forgot! Stamina warden seems to be in much better shape than magicka one. At least this is what I understand from reading forums.

Stamina warden is better than it's magicka counterpart, but it is behind the other stamina specs as well, at least that is what I see on the dummy and I have everything but a stamplar and I can play them fairly well.

For me it is just the passives that need reconsideration. Sorcs have so many great passives for damage dealing, if you look at wardens in comparison, it is just meh. And the stamina warden got it's one nice passive taken away....

I don't see why the passive had to be taken away. Why can't it just increase frost, magic, and physical damage? Stamwarden at least would be in a much better place if it was like that

stileanima

Been rolling a Magicka Warden DD in quite a few trials recently, and yeah... take away the Eternal Guardian, and you take away the class's DPS. And even with the Bear, Mag Warden DPS is not as good at its peak as what you can get out of other classes and specs at their peaks. Not to mention the lack of desirable group utility in trial settings. I pretty much agree with everything that @Vaoh and @Liofa have said here. #BuffMagWarden

Vaoh

@stileanima Of all of the Mag Warden DDs, you've probably pulled the highest numbers so I'm glad you've posted here.

Magicka Warden needs a toooon of help. That bear cannot realistically be slotted in Vet trials either since you need your AoE Ult and 8% Max Mag. They need to have enough DPS to compete in single target without Eternal Guardian or an execute.

I wish it was as simple as buffing a few skills but in reality they mainly need an overhaul to Winter's Embrace.

cpuScientist

A few things, I love the class for PvP and vMA but I don't bring it anywhere near trials, and for the first time in this game when I see one I rather leave that group than go through it. For those saying it's a good tank or a good healer. Sure in vet dungeons where warhorn is not necessary it's just fine, because of the tree. But a tank with shields or a magplar with breath is still better. But in a trial that tree is a no go and the ice ulti pales in comparison to Nova which can be placed cause a healer is not gonna always be able to stack with group. This is not enough to say meh they should have horrid dps.

Now they are good in PvP, nowhere near the best and they have some very hard counters such as roots stopping them from aiming the groundhog and invisibility being able to cancel their burst mid combo. They can put out big burst but then you have time to recover since they lack an execute and rely very heavily on ult to finish like a DK does. They have good survivability, but still not the best of the magic classes a magSorc still wins there. They are a solid class and shine in groups with classes that can finish for you.

To get the best possible do you need the bear. Which is really bad to bring in trials as a destro ult is better, and it's also bad in open world. The bear is essentially only ever good in the "fake" "meaningless" parts of the game skeleton parses and duels. In open world and trials it's nearly trash. Can't even be shielded so it's dead alot as well.