I love to play a healer in dungeons BUT...

Honghua

Not when i have a tank with two handed sword and damage dealers on 1-160 CP range with no equipment whatsoever, killing mobs for ages and dying out without me spamming aoe 10k healing ability all the time.
Sometimes i dont get it, why my team is dealing less damage than my jesus beam, please explain it to me.

Magdalina

They're just playing how they want, nothing wrong with that, is there?

But yes. Absolute majority of pugs is godmode awful these days. Given they can't make use of your buffs anyway, slot an extra damage skill or two so you at least hit 10-15k dps and it goes slightly faster.

Or don't go as a healer. That's part of the reason groupfinder has issues finding support roles - no one likes dealing with 10k group dps.

tommalmm

Magdalina wrote: »

But yes. Absolute majority of pugs is godmode awful these days. Given they can't make use of your buffs anyway, slot an extra damage skill or two so you at least hit 10-15k dps and it goes slightly faster.

This! For me the mark when I start buffing DDs is somewhere close to 20k per DD. Otherwise it's just easier to concentrate more on DPS, as we gain more with me dpsing rather than buffing the team. For me the difference is between 8-12k and 20k in my dps (making sure they're always at 100% for SPC to proc all the time, combat prayer, charged lightning vs sharpened = have both, etc).

The general idea for DDs is, that if your healer behaves like a third DD (and quite often getting DPS on par with you), there is seriously something wrong with your skills.

Edit: I wouldn't call them awful though. They're fine, just not good. With two DDs doing 15k dps each and a healer pulling 15k, tank 3-5k, you're getting 50k, which is pretty much enough to burn through every boss in vet "one" dungeons.

Turelus

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Morgul667

Joina guild will change your life

But as most of us do that, the pug % of people who dont understand a thing increase

Last time i tried to give advices to a guy, he said he disnt care at all about his dps

Azurya

Honghua wrote: »

Not when i have a tank with two handed sword and damage dealers on 1-160 CP range with no equipment whatsoever, killing mobs for ages and dying out without me spamming aoe 10k healing ability all the time.
Sometimes i dont get it, why my team is dealing less damage than my jesus beam, please explain it to me.

this game is so much fun.............

Magdalina

Turelus wrote: »

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Just because we do have an option to choose people to play with it doesn't make it okay that 2/3 pugs have no idea about block, breakfree, dots, aoes and all that good stuff.

"This thing is broken. - So go use that other thing then, it works" kind of "solution" doesn't really solve thing #1 being broken to start with. It actually makes it worse because no one even tries to fix it.

Turelus

Magdalina wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Just because we do have an option to choose people to play with it doesn't make it okay that 2/3 pugs have no idea about block, breakfree, dots, aoes and all that good stuff.

"This thing is broken. - So go use that other thing then, it works" kind of "solution" doesn't really solve thing #1 being broken to start with. It actually makes it worse because no one even tries to fix it.

Is there a problem with the game teaching people how the advanced mechanics, builds and rotations work? Yes.

Should we come to the forums and whine every bad PUG we have? No.

Should we limit who can enter Group Finder? No.

Should we work as a community to help get more/better information out there for people? Yes.

The problem is no one wants to work on the idea of helping and theory ways to help people, no they just want to whine about how they didn't get epic numbers or how they're better than the dumb pug scrubs.

Morgul667

Turelus wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Just because we do have an option to choose people to play with it doesn't make it okay that 2/3 pugs have no idea about block, breakfree, dots, aoes and all that good stuff.

"This thing is broken. - So go use that other thing then, it works" kind of "solution" doesn't really solve thing #1 being broken to start with. It actually makes it worse because no one even tries to fix it.

Is there a problem with the game teaching people how the advanced mechanics, builds and rotations work? Yes.

Should we come to the forums and whine every bad PUG we have? No.

Should we limit who can enter Group Finder? No.

Should we work as a community to help get more/better information out there for people? Yes.

The problem is no one wants to work on the idea of helping and theory ways to help people, no they just want to whine about how they didn't get epic numbers or how they're better than the dumb pug scrubs.

True but there should be some kind of in game preparation for whats going on next

jaws343

I queued for Banished 2 normal on my lvl 22 healer last night and if it wasn't for my own DPS we would have never cleared Keeper Imiril. I had 3 players kiting everything all around the room. It was nearly impossible to keep everyone healed. And that was on normal. I gave up on healing one of the DPS and started DPSing and healing intermittently to clear it.

Turelus

Morgul667 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Just because we do have an option to choose people to play with it doesn't make it okay that 2/3 pugs have no idea about block, breakfree, dots, aoes and all that good stuff.

"This thing is broken. - So go use that other thing then, it works" kind of "solution" doesn't really solve thing #1 being broken to start with. It actually makes it worse because no one even tries to fix it.

Is there a problem with the game teaching people how the advanced mechanics, builds and rotations work? Yes.

Should we come to the forums and whine every bad PUG we have? No.

Should we limit who can enter Group Finder? No.

Should we work as a community to help get more/better information out there for people? Yes.

The problem is no one wants to work on the idea of helping and theory ways to help people, no they just want to whine about how they didn't get epic numbers or how they're better than the dumb pug scrubs.

True but there should be some kind of in game preparation for whats going on next

Right, so what are the solutions? As bragging and bashing forums posts are not it.

I've seen some interesting ideas like an undaunted academy in the past. The thing is though how do you explain a good rotation when that rotation can literally change the next patch?

What people are asking for is everyone to be invested and clued in on every detail of how the game functions, which there is no perfect solution ZOS can do and as a community you can only advise and try to help.

Thread basing people who don't perform does nothing to help convince others to perform either, it just pushes potentially interested people away because they got told to L2P or git gud rather than actual helpful information.

If you really want to start a better class of ESO players grab a free guild slot and start an ESO Academy, train people in how to be better and invest some time in bringing more players into the fold. They can then share that knowledge as well.

MarzAttakz

Turelus wrote: »

Right, so what are the solutions? As bragging and bashing forums posts are not it.

AGREED.

Turelus wrote: »

I've seen some interesting ideas like an undaunted academy in the past. The thing is though how do you explain a good rotation when that rotation can literally change the next patch?

They shouldn't though should they? Too many massive scale changes too often. I've seen it at work, I've seen it in game. It doesn't work. Since I started playing a few months ago I've experienced dramatic class changes, core mechanic changes, cp changes, set changes, trait changes. In less than 6 months? W.T.F?

Turelus wrote: »

What people are asking for is everyone to be invested and clued in on every detail of how the game functions, which there is no perfect solution ZOS can do and as a community you can only advise and try to help

We shouldn't have to rely on people like Asyre et all in combination with 3rd party tools and sites to have access to information that should be available and explained in game! I shouldn't have to load add-ons to display my crit and mitigation percentages! I shouldn't have to go to uesp.net to figure out what the hell my build is actually doing. I'm not bitching at you Turelus, I just feel that the stakeholders of this game have left far too much basic work undone.

Turelus wrote: »

Thread basing people who don't perform does nothing to help convince others to perform either, it just pushes potentially interested people away because they got told to L2P or git gud rather than actual helpful information.

COMPLETELY AGREE.

Turelus wrote: »

If you really want to start a better class of ESO players grab a free guild slot and start an ESO Academy, train people in how to be better and invest some time in bringing more players into the fold. They can then share that knowledge as well.

Which has happened in many of the other games I've played, however there are only a handful of individuals who have the patience, knowledge and people skills to run with a large-scale project of this nature. It is essentially a full-time job creating material, keeping it updated, creating formats, managing rosters and schedules etc. You know what I mean. It's a great idea but I have no clue who would sign the dotted line to do so.

Thank you for putting the suggestions forward @Turelus I'm all out myself.

Honghua

Turelus wrote: »

Right, so what are the solutions? As bragging and bashing forums posts are not it.

I've seen some interesting ideas like an undaunted academy in the past. The thing is though how do you explain a good rotation when that rotation can literally change the next patch?

What people are asking for is everyone to be invested and clued in on every detail of how the game functions, which there is no perfect solution ZOS can do and as a community you can only advise and try to help.

Thread basing people who don't perform does nothing to help convince others to perform either, it just pushes potentially interested people away because they got told to L2P or git gud rather than actual helpful information.

If you really want to start a better class of ESO players grab a free guild slot and start an ESO Academy, train people in how to be better and invest some time in bringing more players into the fold. They can then share that knowledge as well.

Make a limit for dungeons from 160 CP, since under that the leveling is so fast, your equipment gets obscure withing 1-2 days of playing.
In most cases, it is not the problem that someone using bad abilities or rotation screw that, in this game you could literally spam 1 ability and do decent damage, but their equipment quality is.
Wearing white-greenish stuff with random bonuses IS A PROBLEM even on normal dungeons, especially if a person does not understand the standard stamina-magicka diversity mechanics.
Giving an opportunity to ruin other people dungeons with low level useless character is a problem, not the people themselves.

Magdalina

Turelus wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Just because we do have an option to choose people to play with it doesn't make it okay that 2/3 pugs have no idea about block, breakfree, dots, aoes and all that good stuff.

"This thing is broken. - So go use that other thing then, it works" kind of "solution" doesn't really solve thing #1 being broken to start with. It actually makes it worse because no one even tries to fix it.

Is there a problem with the game teaching people how the advanced mechanics, builds and rotations work? Yes.

Should we come to the forums and whine every bad PUG we have? No.

Should we limit who can enter Group Finder? No.

Should we work as a community to help get more/better information out there for people? Yes.

The problem is no one wants to work on the idea of helping and theory ways to help people, no they just want to whine about how they didn't get epic numbers or how they're better than the dumb pug scrubs.

Actually I disagree on the "whine" part somewhat(the rest I mainly agree with).

The one who REALLY SHOULD start working on teaching players the ropes is Zenimax. Because not only it's not players' responsibility to explain to cp 300+ players how to break free when pugging in a vet dungeon, but the mentality the game encourages is one extremely opposed to learning.

I love teaching people the dungeons. Seriously, I've even pugged and successfully completed vet ROM and COS, not to mention WGT and ICP. But it's getting worse and worse, it's not even that people are bad on their own, it's their absolutely refuse to accept any advice, no matter how polite and useful it is. They ragequit, call you names, tell you "lul shut up its not a trial no one cares" then proceed to wipe, etc etc etc. Now you can't fix stupid but it didn't use to be quite THAT bad. I feel the growing issue is they've nerfed all and every piece of open world content to where following any kind of rotation, having a build and following simple mechanics (bash, breakfree, dodge, block) is simply not needed and players feel their bow light attack spam from as far away as possible is an effective playstyle. If someone consciously wants to do it for rp purposes that's fine but they NEED to know it's not an effective playstyle and it's not something you should do in a vet group dungeon. They don't know it. Then after they get to cp 300-600 with this "build", successfully doing all the open world they naturally feel they're good and it's other players telling them to change that are the problem.

In the light of this, I'm currently in favor of people coming to forums and whining about bad pugs as loud as they can. Because if it gets loud enough there's a chance ZOS might actually listen and try to change something. Is this how it should be? No, but ZOS has shown time and again they don't give a flying *** about constructive suggestions. There have been DOZENS of threads full of constructive suggestions, there have been people all over offering themselves to be mentors in dungeons for pugs if ZOS were to give such system, I personally have made a very long post/thread in regards of missing learning curve and possible solutions prior to WGT/ICP nerfs in DB(which shockingly haven't been enough. I wonder why?)...and all of them have been ignored with not as much as a single comment from anyone. They only respond/listen to us when the whining gets too loud and they want to avoid the scandal.

I don't like it being that way, but if it's the only way to get through, then let the "whining" come.

zaria

Turelus wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

So join a guild or start one.

Then you can be selective about who you play with.

Just because we do have an option to choose people to play with it doesn't make it okay that 2/3 pugs have no idea about block, breakfree, dots, aoes and all that good stuff.

"This thing is broken. - So go use that other thing then, it works" kind of "solution" doesn't really solve thing #1 being broken to start with. It actually makes it worse because no one even tries to fix it.

Is there a problem with the game teaching people how the advanced mechanics, builds and rotations work? Yes.

Should we come to the forums and whine every bad PUG we have? No.

Should we limit who can enter Group Finder? No.

Should we work as a community to help get more/better information out there for people? Yes.

The problem is no one wants to work on the idea of helping and theory ways to help people, no they just want to whine about how they didn't get epic numbers or how they're better than the dumb pug scrubs.

True but there should be some kind of in game preparation for whats going on next

Right, so what are the solutions? As bragging and bashing forums posts are not it.

I've seen some interesting ideas like an undaunted academy in the past. The thing is though how do you explain a good rotation when that rotation can literally change the next patch?

What people are asking for is everyone to be invested and clued in on every detail of how the game functions, which there is no perfect solution ZOS can do and as a community you can only advise and try to help.

Thread basing people who don't perform does nothing to help convince others to perform either, it just pushes potentially interested people away because they got told to L2P or git gud rather than actual helpful information.

If you really want to start a better class of ESO players grab a free guild slot and start an ESO Academy, train people in how to be better and invest some time in bringing more players into the fold. They can then share that knowledge as well.

The undaunted academy was this ones idea
And the idea was just to teach the basic, DoT then spam, redo add some LA or HA, advanced class is two bar rotation.
Not animation canceling, not caltrops as its an PvP skills who most low level players lack and was not very usefull in pve before last patch.

Second was an healer and tank training, the standard could be done with restoration staff on any magic build and probably inner fire on tank if you had self heal. its just about healing the team and controlling boss.
An harder version and preferable multiple would be nice for testing builds.

AlMcFly

I exclusively pug as a healer. I've seen CP 30 players out-play some garbage CP 400 players. It's really a toss up what skill level you get. I stick it out until the first boss usually, then decide if it's worth kicking somebody or leaving myself.

I usually kick when I watch [snip] trying to light-attack their way into being carried through. I don't even care if it's on Normal mode, I'll still call them out, especially if they're the tank.

deepsix

There's something to be said for the challenge of the occasional PUG. More fun, more challenging, more communication and more leaning than running through on auto pilot.

No saying they can't be a PITA but you get that completion high when it's been tough.

This may be a massive generalisation but also noticed higher CP folks seem to have more patience in terms of wiping and trying again and again til done. Not always but there's a pattern.

gepe87

When pugging i check if damage done is, at minumum, twice of my healing done. If not, I quit.
Got scared when healing done is higher than damage and seeing Stamblade using light bow attacks, at least I give a chance and suggest them to use volley, whirlwind and/or arrow spray.

Dear DDs, Healers don't prevent One-hit KO's