Is Argonia the largest "Empire" by the 4th Era?

ArchMikem

For all the hardships and discrimination the Argonians have had to endure, it seems the Race eventually acquires their revenge and elevation by the 4th Era. Not only do they still hold onto Black Marsh, but they also turn on the Dunmer during their weakened state from the Oblivion Crisis and the eruption of Red Mountain, and if I recall correctly, the Argonians actually invade and occupy Vvardenfell itself, driving the Dunmer out to Solstheim and elsewhere. So then does that mean by that time the Argonians technically have the most controlled land on Tamriel? Especially since the Empire of Cyrodiil is a fractured shell after the Great War.

Tyrobag

ArchMikem wrote: »

For all the hardships and discrimination the Argonians have had to endure, it seems the Race eventually acquires their revenge and elevation by the 4th Era. Not only do they still hold onto Black Marsh, but they also turn on the Dunmer during their weakened state from the Oblivion Crisis and the eruption of Red Mountain, and if I recall correctly, the Argonians actually invade and occupy Vvardenfell itself, driving the Dunmer out to Solstheim and elsewhere. So then does that mean by that time the Argonians technically have the most controlled land on Tamriel? Especially since the Empire of Cyrodiil is a fractured shell after the Great War.

The Argonians only invaded Southern Morrowind (with good reason, Vvardnefell is unlivable) I believe that the furthest they went was Mournhold. Even assuming that they officially claimed all of the land they attacked, Cyrodiil is still bigger. Despite the great war, Cyrodiil is still controlled by the empire and is still larger than Blackmarsh and Southern Morrowind combined. On top of this, Highrock has not officially seceded from the empire, and Skyrim may or may not have.(depending on the result of the civil war).

Still, the Argonians do now control a significant portion of Tamriel, and they have a homeland that has been noted for being unconquerable. Perhaps the Argonians will be the ones to free Tamriel from the thalmor.

ArchMikem

Tyrobag wrote: »

The Argonians only invaded Southern Morrowind (with good reason, Vvardnefell is unlivable) I believe that the furthest they went was Mournhold.

Something is telling me I read somewhere that the Argonians took Vvardenfell over, but after looking over the Wikis again, I guess I was wrong.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

It might also be tied for size with the Third Aldmeri Dominion - just eyeballing it, Black Marsh + Morrowind up to Mournhold looks to be roughly the same size as Summerset + Elsweyr + Valenwood (not counting the ocean separating the pieces).

I wouldn't bet on them stopping the Third Era Thalmor though - per Rising Threat they may have been partially to blame for the uprising. Also, I've never really gotten the impression that the Hist cared much about the rest of Tamriel (though someone link examples to me if I'm forgetting any counter examples). Even with the Oblivion Crisis they called all their scaly children home and left the rest of the continent to hang.

ArchMikem

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Also, I've never really gotten the impression that the Hist cared much about the rest of Tamriel (though someone link examples to me if I'm forgetting any counter examples). Even with the Oblivion Crisis they called all their scaly children home and left the rest of the continent to hang.

I did read that part about the Argonians gaining a King with more of a Nationalist ideology, it sounds like they're trying to organize and modernize their society again.

TonyRockaroni

The Argonians don't have the LARGEST empire by the 4th Era, but it's larger than it ever has been AND they're the most united empire of the 4th Era.
First, they're the only nation that, during the Oblivion Crisis, was able to drive the Daedra back through their portals AND force them to actually close their own portals.
Second, they didn't just attack southern Morrowind, they conquered it and reclaimed it as part of Argonia. Pretty much everything south of Mournhold is their's now.
And to top it all off, as of 4E 201, they have no real enemies.

The largest empire is definitely still THE Empire, but it is definitely not as united as the Argonians are. In fact, it's a shadow of its former glory. They've been severely weakened by the aftermath of the Great War, the Aldmeri Dominion's attempts to take over, the Skyrim Civil War, and the fact that they just lost their emperor courtesy of the Dark Brotherhood.

The Aldmeri Dominion may be trying to rise up and take control, but they have their own weaknesses. Elsweyr has its own civil war going on with most of the Khajiit rallying against the Thalmor, and many of the Bosmer apparently can't stand the Thalmor either based on Delphine and Malborn's dialogue. And if you side with the Empire in the civil war in Skyrim, General Tulius' dialogue indicates that the Empire isn't finished with the Dominion either.

Despite Hammerfell successfully defending themselves as an independent nation from the Dominion, the damage was still devastating. And because of how recent the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed, it is very unlikely that Hammerfell has fully recovered from the damage caused by the Dominion.

As for the Dunmer, well, they got what they deserved in my opinion.
House Telvanni suffered from Red Mountain's eruption due to losing all of their holdings on Vvardenfell AND the Argonians hit them the hardest.
Houe Dres was also hit hard by the Argonians considering most of their holdings were in southern Morrowind, which is now Argonian territory.
House Indoril was definitely weakened by the Tribunal's destruction and Mournhold's sacking at the hands of the An-Xileel.
House Sadras is too new to really be noteworthy at the moment.
House Hlaalu isn't even a great house anymore.
House Redoran is the only house that has any real power considering they were the only house that could drive the Argonians back to Black Marsh. And that's most likely due to how far north the Argonians had to go and because they had already fought the other Dunmer houses. By the time they got to House Redoran's territory, they were definitely not at 100%. I can't say if the Argonians would have actually pushed through them if they had been 100%, however. That's mostly up for debate. XP

Vrienda

Not by a long shot. House Redoran pushed them quite far south. At least further than Mournhold. At best the beastfolk lay claim to the tear, but little else.

The Imperials lay claim to being the largest empire. Although the Dominion probably takes that title if you sided with the stormcloaks. And might yet take that title anyway considering how they probably influenced the Argonians to attack in the first place. Argonia could be a dominion nation within the next hundred years after Skyrim.

k9mouse

To see what happens next will be very interesting....

ChibchanLawyer

I never understood Argonia as an imperialistic nation. Their invasion on Morrowind was mostly driven by the radical nationalist An-Xileel government, whom, with the blessing of the Hist, sought payback against the Dark Elves specifically for millenia of slavery and mistreat, I also read somewhere that the Aldmeri Dominion tried to make moves in Black Marsh but ultimately failed and decided to discard the Province. However, there is a very long chasm between invading a country full of your people's slavers and torturers, and invading a foreign nation for the sake of expansion or power, and the Hist probably draw their line there.

Cyrodiil and Summerset, on the other hand, do invade Provinces for the sake of power and territorial expansion. But to answer the question (let's asume it before the Dragonborn chooses sides and alters Skyrim's status as an Imperial Province):
- Hammerfell was renounced as an Imperial Province after the White-Gold Concordate raised raging opposition within the Redguards. So it's an Independent Nation.
- Skyrim, for the purposes of common ground, still hasn't met the Dragonborn and is in Civil War, but remains an Imperial Province.
- High Rock remains a prosperous Imperial Province.
- Morrowind is devastated and with terrible diplomatic relations with the Empire, even having it's pull on the Council of Houses replaced, but the Province itself has never been resigned as an Imperial Province, so it would still count along the Imperial Landmass.

As for the Aldmeri Dominion, they hold Summerset, Valenwood and Elsewyr. But if landmass is the criteria, then the Empire is still bigger, if nothing else, then by the uninvaded part of Morrowind alone. However, the Aldmeri Dominion's leadership on their provinces is far stronger than any of the provinces under Imperial rule.

ArchMikem

Vrienda wrote: »

Not by a long shot. House Redoran pushed them quite far south. At least further than Mournhold. At best the beastfolk lay claim to the tear, but little else.

I don't know why I had the idea that it said somewhere that after the eruption of Red Mountain driving out the Dunmer, the Argonians completely annexed the island for themselves. I guess then even if they took just the areas around Mournhold they wouldn't be anywhere near the size of the Empire which still holds Skyrim and High Rock. I just assumed the gains in Morrowind would've put them over since Argonia itself is pretty damn large by itself.

TonyRockaroni

Vrienda wrote: »

Not by a long shot. House Redoran pushed them quite far south. At least further than Mournhold. At best the beastfolk lay claim to the tear, but little else.

Actually, considering the Argonians were able to sack Mournhold and reach territory controlled by House Telvanni (or at least what they had left), they had to have gotten pretty far into Morrowind. I'm pretty sure they hold everything south of Mournhold now, and not just Tear.

starkerealm

TonyRockaroni wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Not by a long shot. House Redoran pushed them quite far south. At least further than Mournhold. At best the beastfolk lay claim to the tear, but little else.

Actually, considering the Argonians were able to sack Mournhold and reach territory controlled by House Telvanni (or at least what they had left), they had to have gotten pretty far into Morrowind. I'm pretty sure they hold everything south of Mournhold now, and not just Tear.

Probably worth noting, Redoran holdings trend towards the western side of Morrowind, while the Telvani occupy the east. It's entirely possible the Argonians went up the coast, hitting places like Necrom, and Telvannis, without actually having much success against the Redoran.

starkerealm

ChibchanLawyer wrote: »

I never understood Argonia as an imperialistic nation. Their invasion on Morrowind was mostly driven by the radical nationalist An-Xileel government, whom, with the blessing of the Hist, sought payback against the Dark Elves specifically for millenia of slavery and mistreat, I also read somewhere that the Aldmeri Dominion tried to make moves in Black Marsh but ultimately failed and decided to discard the Province. However, there is a very long chasm between invading a country full of your people's slavers and torturers, and invading a foreign nation for the sake of expansion or power, and the Hist probably draw their line there.

Because revenge often gives way to the dream of conquest. I'm probably paraphrasing Babylon 5 unintentionally here. An abused people, looking to avenge their previous losses can easily transition into imperial expansion. Initially simply to balance the books for what was taken. But, as time passes, and successes mount, that transitions into the belief that their cause is just, that they deserve what they have taken, what they can take.

A millennia of mistreatment by the Dunmer could easily have lead to real hatred from the Argonians, directed against them. The cycle of abuse is that, without introspection, the victim will become a new abuser when the opportunity presents itself. Initially that hatred would have been directed against the Dunmer specifically. But, over time, it could easily expand to encompass anyone who facilitated the Dunmer's abuses. The Empire, the Pact, or The Dominion for not stopping slavery when they had the opportunity. Even if that opportunity never really existed.

BrianDavion

Keep in mind, the size of their territory isn't nesscarily relevant to their power level. Population density, access to resources etc can all play an important role in this regard as well. if sheer land mass was all it took Canada would be more powerful then the USA

olivesforge

starkerealm wrote: »

Because revenge often gives way to the dream of conquest. I'm probably paraphrasing Babylon 5 unintentionally here. An abused people, looking to avenge their previous losses can easily transition into imperial expansion. Initially simply to balance the books for what was taken. But, as time passes, and successes mount, that transitions into the belief that their cause is just, that they deserve what they have taken, what they can take.

A millennia of mistreatment by the Dunmer could easily have lead to real hatred from the Argonians, directed against them. The cycle of abuse is that, without introspection, the victim will become a new abuser when the opportunity presents itself. Initially that hatred would have been directed against the Dunmer specifically. But, over time, it could easily expand to encompass anyone who facilitated the Dunmer's abuses. The Empire, the Pact, or The Dominion for not stopping slavery when they had the opportunity. Even if that opportunity never really existed.

Indeed, it's such a common concept that real-life international relations has a term for it: "revanchism."

The continued abuse of the Argonians by the Dunmer certainly would cause such a feeling within Argonia. Just don't blame the Dominion - too self absorbed in their own majesty to even care.

Dustfinger81

BrianDavion wrote: »

Keep in mind, the size of their territory isn't nesscarily relevant to their power level. Population density, access to resources etc can all play an important role in this regard as well. if sheer land mass was all it took Canada would be more powerful then the USA

I suspect this is the case. The lead us by the nose through subterfuge, free health care, an extra "A" and string pulling.

ArchMikem

BrianDavion wrote: »

Keep in mind, the size of their territory isn't nesscarily relevant to their power level. Population density, access to resources etc can all play an important role in this regard as well. if sheer land mass was all it took Canada would be more powerful then the USA

The question though wasn't of Argonia's political strength, but just it's geographical claims. Largest, as in how much physical landmass the Argonian nation controls.

Volsera

I think because of the Hist and it's mysterious way of communicating with the Argonians combined with their guerilla strategy, rogue warriors and powerful mages they are able to beat the Thalmor but merely choose not to do so and keep to themselves and Black Marsh.

HugsAlotOfBosmer

Neh, far from it. they only have some bits of southern morrowind, below mournhold. as to how close or far from mournhold, no one has a real idea.

HugsAlotOfBosmer

Volsera wrote: »

I think because of the Hist and it's mysterious way of communicating with the Argonians combined with their guerilla strategy, rogue warriors and powerful mages they are able to beat the Thalmor but merely choose not to do so and keep to themselves and Black Marsh.

neh, they wouldn't be able, I mean. Talos HIMSELF needed a time breaking god machine to actually be able to take Summerset Isle

SosRuvaak

k9mouse wrote: »

To see what happens next will be very interesting....

>implying we will see it happen
gonna be dead by the time the next beefy elder scrolls game is released.

HugsAlotOfBosmer wrote: »

Volsera wrote: »

I think because of the Hist and it's mysterious way of communicating with the Argonians combined with their guerilla strategy, rogue warriors and powerful mages they are able to beat the Thalmor but merely choose not to do so and keep to themselves and Black Marsh.

neh, they wouldn't be able, I mean. Talos HIMSELF needed a time breaking god machine to actually be able to take Summerset Isle

but talos wasnt an argonian, he didnt have the strength of the hist. the hist is nearly like a hive mind for the argonians, its inside all of them. not that talos wasnt a big ***.

MythicEmperor

According to Master Neloth in Dragonborn, House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell, so no. To suggest the Argonians are anything more than uncivilized savages is the ultimate folly. They will once again learn their place under the iron fists of their Dunmer masters.

starkerealm

MythicEmperor wrote: »

According to Master Neloth in Dragonborn, House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell, so no.

As I recall, what he actually says is that they still have their holdings on the mainland. Blacklight (presumably under the control of the Redoran) and Port Telvannis (which isn't technically on the mainland, I know) (I think). While Vvardenfell itself is mostly uninhabitable after the Red Year.

Beyond that Redoran still has mainland holdings near the Skyrim border, but the implication I always took away was that the Argonians had pushed all the way to the inner sea, at least.

MythicEmperor

TonyRockaroni wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, well, they got what they deserved in my opinion.
House Telvanni suffered from Red Mountain's eruption due to losing all of their holdings on Vvardenfell AND the Argonians hit them the hardest.

You are mistaken. Neloth specifically states in Dragonborn that House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell. Furthermore, what source states they were hit the hardest? Keep in mind the evidence of House Telvanni 'falling' is from a Dunmer hiding in his basement hearing "a thousand booted feet" above him. From his perspective, the world itself might as well be ending. How would he know that the House itself fell and not just his town? Neloth disproves this journal with his dialogue, so I see no point in considering the assertion as factual.

starkerealm

MythicEmperor wrote: »

TonyRockaroni wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, well, they got what they deserved in my opinion.
House Telvanni suffered from Red Mountain's eruption due to losing all of their holdings on Vvardenfell AND the Argonians hit them the hardest.

You are mistaken. Neloth specifically states in Dragonborn that House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell. Furthermore, what source states they were hit the hardest? Keep in mind the evidence of House Telvanni 'falling' is from a Dunmer hiding in his basement hearing "a thousand booted feet" above him. From his perspective, the world itself might as well be ending. How would he know that the House itself fell and not just his town? Neloth disproves this journal with his dialogue, so I see no point in considering the assertion as factual.

After surviving the Red Year, struggling to dig from the ash and the rubble, and burying the thousands that died, is this to be our epitaph?

The implication I get isn't that Telvanni managed to save their holdings on Vvardenfell, so much as they simply refused to let go, and rebuilt by brute (magical) force.

Though, from the base game, the implication was that House Telvanni had been nearly wiped out, while the Dragonborn DLC disputes that somewhat.

EDIT: There is a mildly amusing read of Neloth, where the house has been utterly obliterated, and he's completely oblivious to this, because he's finding things to entertain and distract him. It would fit with the base game evidence, and wouldn't be out of character for him. Though, there's not much to support the idea.

Also, if The Pride of Tel Vos was actually named for its port of call, it paints a very grim picture for the state of Telvanni defenses during the Argonian invasion.

MythicEmperor

starkerealm wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

According to Master Neloth in Dragonborn, House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell, so no.

As I recall, what he actually says is that they still have their holdings on the mainland. Blacklight (presumably under the control of the Redoran) and Port Telvannis (which isn't technically on the mainland, I know) (I think). While Vvardenfell itself is mostly uninhabitable after the Red Year.

Beyond that Redoran still has mainland holdings near the Skyrim border, but the implication I always took away was that the Argonians had pushed all the way to the inner sea, at least.

No, he clearly said Vvardenfell, and Port Telvannis is the island to the east of Morrowind. The island is likely intact due to its isolation.

starkerealm wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

TonyRockaroni wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, well, they got what they deserved in my opinion.
House Telvanni suffered from Red Mountain's eruption due to losing all of their holdings on Vvardenfell AND the Argonians hit them the hardest.

You are mistaken. Neloth specifically states in Dragonborn that House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell. Furthermore, what source states they were hit the hardest? Keep in mind the evidence of House Telvanni 'falling' is from a Dunmer hiding in his basement hearing "a thousand booted feet" above him. From his perspective, the world itself might as well be ending. How would he know that the House itself fell and not just his town? Neloth disproves this journal with his dialogue, so I see no point in considering the assertion as factual.

After surviving the Red Year, struggling to dig from the ash and the rubble, and burying the thousands that died, is this to be our epitaph?

The implication I get isn't that Telvanni managed to save their holdings on Vvardenfell, so much as they simply refused to let go, and rebuilt by brute (magical) force.

Though, from the base game, the implication was that House Telvanni had been nearly wiped out, while the Dragonborn DLC disputes that somewhat.

EDIT: There is a mildly amusing read of Neloth, where the house has been utterly obliterated, and he's completely oblivious to this, because he's finding things to entertain and distract him. It would fit with the base game evidence, and wouldn't be out of character for him. Though, there's not much to support the idea.

Also, if The Pride of Tel Vos was actually named for its port of call, it paints a very grim picture for the state of Telvanni defenses during the Argonian invasion.

Holdings were certainly damaged. Some towns were destroyed during the Red Year, and others fell to the N'wah invaders. I do not dispute this simple example of survival of the fittest. Clearly, the lesser must be weeded out so that only the strong remain. It matters little if these holdings remain from offense or defense. What matters is that House Telvanni did not lose its holdings as @TonyRockaroni would suggest. I also claimed that House Telvanni wasn't hit the hardest. Allow me to elaborate: House Dres, being the closest to Black Marsh, would be the most affected target. They were the ones who would typically capture the slaves due to their proximity, although the Telvanni did partake in this. These factors mean that House Dres would certainly be the worst victim of this violent terrorism.

Furthermore, I find your suggested theory unlikely. Neloth was one of the less eccentric Telvanni masters in Morrowind. If it were Therana, then it would be a real possibility. Neloth may be egotistical and extreme, but he is not insane. Quite the contrary. Who else could create a staff enchanter?

tplink3r1

- Argonians
- Empire

TelvanniWizard

@MythicEmperor keep it up! House Telvanni rules! We´ll come back from Port Telvannis and put those lizards where they belong! You´ll see that "empire" of theirs teared down by our magical forces.

ArchMikem

@MythicEmperor 's dedication to Character is next level, give him that much.

Fvh09NL

The lizards simply fell in the ingeneous Telvanni trap: The Telvanni wanted them to conquer Morrowind territory in the south so their slaves would be closer to their homes and thus it would be less of a journey to go and capture some. Which would make rebuilding from the eruption of Red Mountain faster. The Telvanni losing holdings to the lizards is just An-Xileel propaganda.

starkerealm

ArchMikem wrote: »

@MythicEmperor 's dedication to Character is next level, give him that much.

Mildly annoying at times, too.