Increase Group Dungeon difficulty, make them 5-man groups

ArchMikem

I'm trying to think of ideas that may lessen the wait times in the Finder and make compromises along the way. Trying to find a pug as a DPS is like going to the DMV, yet i get groups as a Healer within seconds.

• Turn 4-player group dungeons into 5-player, adding a 3rd DPS slot so more players queueing as DPS find groups a bit more quickly.
• Increase dungeon difficulty in some way to compensate for extra DPS player.

Or more people just start playing Healers and Tanks i dunno.

Lord_Eomer

Improve rewards too,

I am already not doing!

Yoelik

Healer and Tank find a group within minutes.
I used to farm sets on normal dungeons as a tank while Im a DPS.
The queue time as a DPS is bad.

Magdalina

One of the biggest issue with groupfinder is the abysmal dps level you usually get - so people who do have healer/tank characters actually tend to prefer queueing up as dps so they don't have to deal with 10k group dps. Given ZOS religiously refuses to introduce any kind of ingame learning curve, this is only gonna get worse too and there's no real solution as it is now.

Introducing another dps to the group could be interesting but would require rather a significant rebalancing of the dungeons which I don't think they're willing to do. It also wouldn't really solve the problem, you'd still spend forever looking for tank and healer.

Krayzie

Why so I can have a 3rd guy light attacking with bow in the back while I do 95% DPS with my healer while warden tank runs around for dear life

Blackbeard

Why?
If you do the dungeons harder you prob need one more support healer. Wich will take away the DPS role anyway.

Stop playing DPS if you struggle to find groups Or get in a better guild. The solution here is not to get an extra slot either way.

BUT if they wanted it to be this way it is easy to implement like other mmo has.
Every player that enters raises the dmg and health of every mob/boss for XX%.

MLGProPlayer

Pop queue and do something else while you wait. Or look for group in zone chat or guild chat.

I really don't see what the problem is (I only play DPS too).

tunepunk

Isn't it better to change the dungeons to not require tank and healer? Make them doable with 4 dps, as long as they bring some form of self heal. I think roles and generally make the game less enjoyable, especially since you have to wait around in queues when most people like to deal damage.

Why not redesign the dungeons so you can go with whatever character/build/role you want. Add more hp/resists to enemies, and make them deal a bit less damage.

Most classes and skill lines have some form of self heal. It's easier to switch a skill or two for a bit more healing, than require a dedicated healer/tank to tag along.


* add a damage component to healer type skills/morphs
* add group heal component to DPS self sustain skills/morphs
* add group damage shield or resist buffs to tank type skills/morphs.

ScytheNL

Yoelik wrote: »

Healer and Tank find a group within minutes.
I used to farm sets on normal dungeons as a tank while Im a DPS.
The queue time as a DPS is bad.

On normal? I find groups as a DPS in about 2 minutes (Xbox EU)

Magdalina

tunepunk wrote: »

Isn't it better to change the dungeons to not require tank and healer? Make them doable with 4 dps, as long as they bring some form of self heal. I think roles and generally make the game less enjoyable, especially since you have to wait around in queues when most people like to deal damage.

Why not redesign the dungeons so you can go with whatever character/build/role you want. Add more hp/resists to enemies, and make them deal a bit less damage.

Most classes and skill lines have some form of self heal. It's easier to switch a skill or two for a bit more healing, than require a dedicated healer/tank to tag along.


* add a damage component to healer type skills/morphs
* add group heal component to DPS self sustain skills/morphs
* add group damage shield or resist buffs to tank type skills/morphs.

That sounds boring. And most dungeons already are doable with 4 dps anyway.

Having different roles ads different aspects to running dungeons, which is a good thing - and it is a shame healer and tank re already nigh redundant in so much content.

eso_nya

Its the base problem of any mmo: There is very few good tanks.
Good tanks rarely pug, cause they usually have a full friendlist and several guilds after couple hours of pugging.
If they wanna run dungeons/pledges, they first check their friend-/guildlists for good healers. After that, they check for dds with a good reputation. If none of them is available, the first wielder of a pointy stick gets grabbed.

In eso, i'd say the dungeons r balanced around 15k~20k dps/dd. There r dds who can pull more 40k, there r "dds" who can't pull 1k, the average dd u find in grpfinder will barely do 10k.
If u now increase bosses health to balance around a total of 60k dps....Dungeons really suck when u r grouped with 2 bad dds, having the option to get 3, well no thanks.

tunepunk wrote: »

Isn't it better to change the dungeons to not require tank and healer? Make them doable with 4 dps, as long as they bring some form of self heal. I think roles and generally make the game less enjoyable, especially since you have to wait around in queues when most people like to deal damage.

Swtor did that, rolefree flashpoints. bosses didnt do any dmg and there were thingies spread around in the bossrooms that would heal u if u clicked on them. It was basically dummyparsing with loot.

Better make target dummys drop loot, that u can create your own custom dungeon in your home! O.O

tunepunk

Magdalina wrote: »

That sounds boring. And most dungeons already are doable with 4 dps anyway.

Having different roles ads different aspects to running dungeons, which is a good thing - and it is a shame healer and tank re already nigh redundant in so much content.

The problem is that most people run around with their DPS char when farming, questing and other activities. People don't wanna log and switch chars just to get a dungeon spot.

Switching role should then be as easy as switching bar. Have DPS on your front bar, healer on your back bar. If people just kept their back bar for their secondary role it wouldn't be any problem.

Main problem is that most people go full on 1 role... You don't need 2 bars to heal, or tank, and you don't need 2 bars to do decent DPS.

timb16_ESO85

tunepunk wrote: »

The problem is that most people run around with their DPS char when farming, questing and other activities. People don't wanna log and switch chars just to get a dungeon spot.

Switching role should then be as easy as switching bar. Have DPS on your front bar, healer on your back bar. If people just kept their back bar for their secondary role it wouldn't be any problem.

Main problem is that most people go full on 1 role... You don't need 2 bars to heal, or tank, and you don't need 2 bars to do decent DPS.

If ZoS added a function to save equipment sets and skill setups and allowed for easy switching (without needing an addon), this would be even less of a problem. And yes, depending on the boss and your group, you DO need 2 bars to be a good tank/healer and support your group at the same time.

Sevalaricgirl

No what they need to do is change the dungeons so you don't need a tank to complete them. If you can complete dungeons with any role there would be no wait time for dpsers.

zaria

tunepunk wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

That sounds boring. And most dungeons already are doable with 4 dps anyway.

Having different roles ads different aspects to running dungeons, which is a good thing - and it is a shame healer and tank re already nigh redundant in so much content.

The problem is that most people run around with their DPS char when farming, questing and other activities. People don't wanna log and switch chars just to get a dungeon spot.

Switching role should then be as easy as switching bar. Have DPS on your front bar, healer on your back bar. If people just kept their back bar for their secondary role it wouldn't be any problem.

Main problem is that most people go full on 1 role... You don't need 2 bars to heal, or tank, and you don't need 2 bars to do decent DPS.

On pc we have addons who let you swap bar setup and gear on the fly.
Seen tanks use it to swap between tank and dps setup between mob and bosses.
Good dps will require 2 bars, healing an easy dungeon can be done mostly on one bar, but you need ele drain on destruction staff,

Tyrion87

The truth is that less and less people do dungeons nowdays. I remember the days when zone chat in capital cities was literally spammed with all this "LFG" "LFM" "gold/silver" stuff. Now it's gone. Gosh, I miss the old days...

People need more incentives to play dungeons like better rewards for completion, something new added to the undaunted chests (maybe new motifs exclusive to the chests, everybody has mercenary now...) or even some nice collectibles with a very very low drop rate (pretty much like e.g. Soul Shriven skin in IC Sewers).

Also, dungeons need to be much harder on vet. Harder content = more enjoyable. End-game players don't even want to play the vanilla dungeons anymore since they are boring as hell.

And I don't agree with your proposition. Currently most of the vet dungeons can be easily done with 4xDDs. Therefore, allowing players who queue for the dungeons to choose the group composition, e.g. 4xDD or 1Tank/1Healer/2DDs etc., would be a much better solution imo.

MisterBigglesworth

For the leveling content they could also have a hidden modifier applied to all the mobs and bosses that changes depending on your group composition.

Thus, if you have 3 dps + healer: boss doesn't hit as hard, but the mobs/bosses health pools are larger.

If you have 4 dps: there is less unavoidable damage, but more avoidable (i.e. telegraphed) damage.

Yoelik

ScytheNL wrote: »

Yoelik wrote: »

Healer and Tank find a group within minutes.
I used to farm sets on normal dungeons as a tank while Im a DPS.
The queue time as a DPS is bad.

On normal? I find groups as a DPS in about 2 minutes (Xbox EU)

Yea...
Im on PS4 EU, on Normal DPS it can take up to 20 minutes (maybe less). as a TANK the ready check is immediate !
Vet dungeons are pain in the ass. If it's a daily pledge it's faster.

SoLooney

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

For the leveling content they could also have a hidden modifier applied to all the mobs and bosses that changes depending on your group composition.

Thus, if you have 3 dps + healer: boss doesn't hit as hard, but the mobs/bosses health pools are larger.

If you have 4 dps: there is less unavoidable damage, but more avoidable (i.e. telegraphed) damage.

if youre talking about for pugs no thanks. the success rate for when I pug vet dlc dungeons is already horrific, having to explain mechanics literally everytime and almost always having a bad tank, healer or dps.

Yea. solution, find a good guild or friends, but the chance of a pug clearing vet dlc dungeons is already low

Magdalina

tunepunk wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

That sounds boring. And most dungeons already are doable with 4 dps anyway.

Having different roles ads different aspects to running dungeons, which is a good thing - and it is a shame healer and tank re already nigh redundant in so much content.

The problem is that most people run around with their DPS char when farming, questing and other activities. People don't wanna log and switch chars just to get a dungeon spot.

Switching role should then be as easy as switching bar. Have DPS on your front bar, healer on your back bar. If people just kept their back bar for their secondary role it wouldn't be any problem.

Main problem is that most people go full on 1 role... You don't need 2 bars to heal, or tank, and you don't need 2 bars to do decent DPS.

It is easy - well on pc at least. There're addons that save your gear and bars presets and let you change (out of combat) within a second. Cp and attributes are harder to change but you don't really need to change them much outside of perhaps some vet trials. Most people who are into group content actually have more than one spec/chars with different specs, I never have a "only dps" issue when grouping with friends, but most of them refuse to pug as support roles.

And what are you talking about? Of course you need 2 bars to tank, heal and especially dps well ._. If I see a dps using a resto staff I will politely ask them what they are doing because missing out on second bar is akin to losing at least half of your dps in best case. And you most certainly need different sets for these roles.

redshirt_49

eso_nya wrote: »

Its the base problem of any mmo: There is very few good tanks.
Good tanks rarely pug, cause they usually have a full friendlist and several guilds after couple hours of pugging.
If they wanna run dungeons/pledges, they first check their friend-/guildlists for good healers. After that, they check for dds with a good reputation. If none of them is available, the first wielder of a pointy stick gets grabbed.

In eso, i'd say the dungeons r balanced around 15k~20k dps/dd. There r dds who can pull more 40k, there r "dds" who can't pull 1k, the average dd u find in grpfinder will barely do 10k.
If u now increase bosses health to balance around a total of 60k dps....Dungeons really suck when u r grouped with 2 bad dds, having the option to get 3, well no thanks.

tunepunk wrote: »

Isn't it better to change the dungeons to not require tank and healer? Make them doable with 4 dps, as long as they bring some form of self heal. I think roles and generally make the game less enjoyable, especially since you have to wait around in queues when most people like to deal damage.

Swtor did that, rolefree flashpoints. bosses didnt do any dmg and there were thingies spread around in the bossrooms that would heal u if u clicked on them. It was basically dummyparsing with loot.

Better make target dummys drop loot, that u can create your own custom dungeon in your home! O.O

Thing is, you *cannot* expect a DD below 200 CPs to pull damage numbers higher than 10k DPS. You just can't. Same way you can't expect a lowbie tank to pull 30 mobs and keep the aggro. It's not a reasonable expectation. Or a lowbie healer to just heal and heal without running into sustain issues. Also, not a reasonable expectation.

So why all this hate on lowbie DDs? I never see any threads about *ahem* challenged tanks thinking a broadswoard is totally fine for tanking and then you can DPS too! Brilliant! Then he cries when he inevitably gets smushed by standing in avoidable red circles and complains about bad heals. Don't see any threads about undergeared healers queueing for random dungeons and then just NOT seeing why he, as the vaunted healer of the group, needs to pay attention to the boss mechanics and help defeat it too. (Say, on WGT, getting it into his thick skull that, yes, you must stop what you're doing and go kill those portals. No we can't do it for you. Gray screen means you gotta do it. Yes. Got it? Ok. Aw shucks, he left. *Yes, this happened. Twice. In the same day.*)

Aaaaanyway, back to DDs.
I tried this out on my alt account, running the same gear and skillset as on my main and DPS just capped off at about 9k.
Same gear, same skills, same rotation. 9k. While it was 30-40k on my main account. It's the kind of numbers that are put up by having loads of CPs invested into thaum, precise, mighty etc. etc.

The only thing I'd change about group finder is find out what's wrong with its matching algorithms and fix it.
Me and friend queue up at same time. Both DPS. He gets queue pop within 2 minutes. I stop bothering at 50 minutes.
Just add additional matching parameters like alliance, level range, current zone etc. Just having that makes it easier for a sorting program to match people together and people won't find themselves sitting in queue for 2 hours because the sorting program doesn't actually assign any kind of priorities to people who have been waiting forever. Or perhaps it should, and simply doesn't.

agegarton

Interesting concept.

I'd like to see some sort of shake-up too. 5-player groups sounds interesting, but I'd also like to see some good content for pairs, and maybe for 3-player groups - especially pairs.

I know that a lot of content is "doable" in pairs as I that's how I tend to play, but many of the Vet dungeons are too hard for the average player to solo or attempt with fewer that 3-4 people.

Nemesis7884

ScytheNL wrote: »

Yoelik wrote: »

Healer and Tank find a group within minutes.
I used to farm sets on normal dungeons as a tank while Im a DPS.
The queue time as a DPS is bad.

On normal? I find groups as a DPS in about 2 minutes (Xbox EU)

Hmmm my avg time on pc is usually 15-25m

Khami

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm trying to think of ideas that may lessen the wait times in the Finder and make compromises along the way. Trying to find a pug as a DPS is like going to the DMV, yet i get groups as a Healer within seconds.

• Turn 4-player group dungeons into 5-player, adding a 3rd DPS slot so more players queueing as DPS find groups a bit more quickly.
• Increase dungeon difficulty in some way to compensate for extra DPS player.

Or more people just start playing Healers and Tanks i dunno.

Go play WoW if you want five-man groups.

supaskrub

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

ScytheNL wrote: »

Yoelik wrote: »

Healer and Tank find a group within minutes.
I used to farm sets on normal dungeons as a tank while Im a DPS.
The queue time as a DPS is bad.

On normal? I find groups as a DPS in about 2 minutes (Xbox EU)

Hmmm my avg time on pc is usually 15-25m

I'm on XboxEU and when I'm pugging vet pledges as a DD I can have a low wait time (around 2-5 minutes) for a popular dungeon (VoM for example) but then again I can go the other end of the spectrum and be in the realms of 40 minutes +. A random daily generally is pretty quick ~5 minutes or so.

Nemesis7884

I prefer 4 man dungeons....fpr normal past 50 u domt really need healer and tanks....i rather have some sort of loadout system that lets u switch gear and skills with a button so you can adapt easily.... more people means even longer farming unless you increase number of bosses

Morvane

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm trying to think of ideas that may lessen the wait times in the Finder and make compromises along the way. Trying to find a pug as a DPS is like going to the DMV, yet i get groups as a Healer within seconds.

• Turn 4-player group dungeons into 5-player, adding a 3rd DPS slot so more players queueing as DPS find groups a bit more quickly.
• Increase dungeon difficulty in some way to compensate for extra DPS player.

Or more people just start playing Healers and Tanks i dunno.

hell yeah, but dev will say hell, no cuz our game is so original:
PvP is AvA
raids are trials
arena's are battlegrounds
dungeons are dungeons but 4ppl instead of 5
items quality borrowed from WoW: grey, white, green, blue, violet, gold.
dying items instead of transmog

the main problem is that u cant replace character position in character list

Junkkis

i heal as dps mag NB veteran dungeons easy. healing is super easy tis game and more relaxing than wow.

Merlin13KAGL

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm trying to think of ideas that may lessen the wait times in the Finder and make compromises along the way. Trying to find a pug as a DPS is like going to the DMV, yet i get groups as a Healer within seconds.

• Turn 4-player group dungeons into 5-player, adding a 3rd DPS slot so more players queueing as DPS find groups a bit more quickly.
• Increase dungeon difficulty in some way to compensate for extra DPS player.

Or more people just start playing Healers and Tanks i dunno.

You realize, technically Healer and/or Tank is optional, right?

If you have the roles you need, or if you are missing the roles you are willing to live without, you can additionally list yourself as the alternate roles and queue to your hearts content.

I highly recommend you're honest to anyone that joins after they fact, as to what they're getting into. But if they're ok with it, go nuts. Wanna 4 DPS CoA II, aside from the initial technicality (which has already been explained how to bypass), there's nothing stopping you. 2 Heals, 2 Tanks to vCoS? Why not!

Your other options are:

• Be patient
• Be willing to change to an alt
• Actually multi-role, at least dual, other than just DPS (not just checking the box).

Your current situation is like a checkers tournament where everyone is willing to play, but only if they can be "red."

Most of the 4 man content is balanced (using that term generously) for a group of 4. Changing it either way throws off the balance, making already easy content even easier, or already difficult content even harder (when someone does queue in a group of four.)

If you wanted an option to opt for smaller groups, say a group of three, keeping current difficulty level, I'd be for it. You'd then have the option to 4 man at current difficulty, or 3 man (or less) at resulting harder difficulty.

svaboss

i have 2 tanks a healer and some DPS and i really like to run dungeons. someties for gear (ok every day a few rounds for gear), sometimes for the xp, sometimes for some ppl on friends list or guild, and sometimes i pug a group from group finder just for the adrenaline rush of the unknown and to get a new personal 1st place on the "how bad can a norm dung run be" latter.

so here we go, why i dont like the group finder groups: 1st because you can get (very often) DLC dungeons with 2 or 3 ppl under lvl 30 and i mean really under lvl30 ppl not the ones who are lvl a new char but have max cp and know all the vet dung and vet trials. really new ppl who dont know almost anything about roles, how skills work armor etc. (we all know whos fault is that). so now you think i hate all low lvl and dont want to tech anyone because im max cp, thats not true: read number 2

2nd. i really hate ppl who dont listen or want to communicate. i really dont mind to spend 5h in wgt to teach a group how to do the planar or finish a fight by myself on my 3-4k dmg dealing tank if everybody is dead but they got the boss down to like 10% and they now know the mechanics. if you want to learn and if you are not offended if i tell you: dont do HA with a frost staff youll get aggro" i can be patient and a lot of other ppl i know can be as well but plz listen and learn. if you dont understand english you might tell so in group chat if you see the group wipes over and over again, there are alot of ppl playing this game who know more than 1 language including myself just try to work with the group.

3rd. you can get some wanna be OP cp 300-400 "elite" player who is raging at some lvl 20-30 player because he cant carry his weight. (to all those wanna be elitist: this lvl 20 player is maybe a hard core end game player with way over 1k cp who just made a new char and HE will actually carry YOU thru the dungeon bcause he knows this game so very well that he can pull alot more dps on a lvl 20 than maybe you can on a cp350)

4th and this is maybe the main reason why there are not more tanks is: tanking is a slower playstyle as a role in the group. you have a great responsibility to carry with you. the big problem here is that ZOS is making the tanking less and less fun and even slower because of all the nerfs they dropped on tanks. first the no stam regen while blocking, every mayor update some more nerfs for tanks regen nerfs increas block cost etc etc. the tanking came down from a fun and active playstyle to a watch the buff tracker from some UI addon so i wont spent my resurses too soon and hit him again bacuse i struggle tomuch with them. i already see i will get alot of hate becuse of this one from ppl like i dont have any resurce issues i can manage them with this set and this set and those skills. well dear all surviving mega resurce managment tank im not talking about player who are tanking for years in this game and who know all the fights in dungeons, have all the best sets and a full suport raid group from a end game PVE guild. im talking about ppl who might start to play this game and want to tank but they hit a wall. so what do they do: they roll a dps.

so i dont think the 3rd dps will solve the issue here. just make tanking more fun, and tell ppl at the tutorial how skills armor weapons and roles work.

sry for my bad grammar, english isnt my 1st nor 2nd language

Kneighbors

Looking at ideas here I just hope they will change nothing.