Random Dungeon Finder/PUG pledges. The Issue and the Solution.

InFernalEntity

This is not designed to exclude any players but more of a quality of life update to prevent PUGs from hell etc.

Let me start with what gave me the idea. Recently I've been doing the random daily dungeon for the xp. However, in certain dungeons there are mechanics and some players just don't get it. 4/5 times I've done ruins of Mazzatun the last 2 days only to have players not understand the Chudan or Xal-Nur fights and it's almost impossible to do these yourself on a new toon without optimal gear.

I've had similar PUGs with L2P issues for the last direfrost boss and the boss that has flame atronach shields (can't remember the dungeon name).

So I propose a 3 way system. As we now get trophies for killing dungeon bosses this will determine who can queue where. It also means you only have to have completed the dungeon once on any character to queue for it again.

Pledge Finder: This will queue players who have completed the dungeon for the daily pledges. To queue for normal you must have the normal trophy furnishing. To queue for vet you must have the vet trophy furnishing. (Ensures players understand the mechanics and are capable of dealing with the difficulty of the content)

Random Dungeon Finder: Queues you for a random dungeon that you have the normal trophy furnishing for. Can queue for either difficulty. (Ensures players understand the mechanics and are familiar with the dungeon. Allows players to achieve veteran furnishings)

Specific Dungeon Finder: Allows players to queue for vet or normal dungeons regardless of completion. This would allow players to do pledges as they are now. Also, anyone can use this so players who have previously competed the dungeon can find a group with friends who haven't. (Allows players to do pledges. Allows players to complete dungeons they haven't yet completed on either difficulty)

I know the activity finder is broken but I think these are some positive changes to improve the pledge and random dungeom process.
Plus because the furnishings are account based and not character based it doesn't lock anyone out of dungeons based on their character. You only have to have finished it on one toon.

What's the thoughts of the people?

InFernalEntity

Additionally, Add a Hard Mode Queue to the pledge finder. Though I don't know how to determine who'd be capable of this or not because there isn't HM trophies. Still, a good option to have from the beginning.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

I think it sounds like you need a guild. PUG is PUG. You take the good, you take the bad, and there you have, the PUG life.

InFernalEntity

@vyndral13preub18_ESO I have a guild to do pledges with. But random dungeons are random dungeons and it doesn't have to be the way it is right now. It could be improved drastically by implementing the above ideas. At least, in my opinion.

max_only

To queue for vet you need to have run it on vet?

To learn the computer, search the internet.

I've run dlc dungeons with lvl 14 damage dealers who didn't have soul gems so I mean.... just take the good with the bad as they come.

josiahva

Pugs are NOT a problem. I routinely pug even the DLC dungeons like vCoS and vRoM without any issue(75%+ completion rate, all it takes is explaining mechanics to the others in the group), as well as all the lesser dungeons. The fact is, if someone has such a miserable time on a given dungeon...they wont queue for it again. Just like the first time I ran vCoS and vRoM were miserable failures, I didnt try them again for weeks. If you are unable to complete these dungeons with a pug group, it is YOUR failure to help your group win. There are some few requirements though...you need a minimum group DPS of 30k for the totem in vRoM as an example, but these are really not onerous. This is what a pug group is: a group of random people who may or may not be able to complete a given dungeon. If you want a higher completion percentage...simply run the dungeon with friends and/or guildees and leave the pugs to those of us who enjoy them.

agingerinohio

Great ideas but their main focus should be to fix the Group Finder, which is still broken. Tested today and still had issues with it booting out of queue after "someone declined".

InFernalEntity

@max_only not what I said. Players are free to queue for specific vet dungeons. But players can also choose to queue for a vet dungeon they have completed with other players who have completed it so that players doing the vet pledge get a reasonably competent PUG.

There is no real reason for players just to accept that PUGs will be PUGs when the system could be improved.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@vyndral13preub18_ESO I have a guild to do pledges with. But random dungeons are random dungeons and it doesn't have to be the way it is right now. It could be improved drastically by implementing the above ideas. At least, in my opinion.

And I disagree with your opinion. Random dungeon finder to me is the tool for
People who don't have a large group a friends or a guild and maybe never did the dungeon before but want to try it out. Or maybe never did a dungeon at all and want to see what all the noise is about.

Sure I get frustrated by people who don't know what to do. Or won't ask what to do. Or just spam light attack. But those are also the people to me that make the group finder interesting.

Taking those people through a dungeon. Or zoning in to a half done dungeon and having the tank and the dps say, oh good you are our 8th healer I hope we can get through this... you know how bad you have to be to have 8 healers quit on you? Ok! Challenge accepted! Ps. It was a mess. Like hearding cats.

Anyway my point is, the guild is the option for those established players. Looking to better themselves and play with friendly like minded individuals looking to complete something smoothly and move on.

The PUG? The PUG is a land of chaos and carnage! Where who knows what you will get. I can only run a dungeon so often before I need something to entertain me.

You also set up a system where you have to have completed the dungeon before you can queue for it. That is backwards to me. The pug group is never the place to look for people who know what to do when. Sure there might be some of those people there, but the pug group is for ease of use. For those who don't have a dungeon guild. Or any friends who run dungeons.

But tldr: it is safe to say we are looking for two completely different things in our dungeon finders.

InFernalEntity

@josiahva I am not talking about removing that aspect from the game though?

I am saying keep that option. But allow players who have ran dungeons previously to queue with a more capable group. I don't see the issue with that.

Plus some PUG players are beyond help. You can only tell people the mechanics. You can't make them perform them. I can only type "focus on the totem" or "don't kill the handlers at the start" so many times to the same 3 people. If they don't listen it can't be 100% my fault.

max_only

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@max_only not what I said. Players are free to queue for specific vet dungeons. But players can also choose to queue for a vet dungeon they have completed with other players who have completed it so that players doing the vet pledge get a reasonably competent PUG.

There is no real reason for players just to accept that PUGs will be PUGs when the system could be improved.

I re-read and I understand now.

This is wishful thinking for Zos to add sub categories and account checks to the group finder when it doesn't even do (for a lot of people) the bare bones of finding a group.

I'd love a guarantee op group every time, but that can only be found with a guild.

josiahva

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@vyndral13preub18_ESO I have a guild to do pledges with. But random dungeons are random dungeons and it doesn't have to be the way it is right now. It could be improved drastically by implementing the above ideas. At least, in my opinion.

And I disagree with your opinion. Random dungeon finder to me is the tool for
People who don't have a large group a friends or a guild and maybe never did the dungeon before but want to try it out. Or maybe never did a dungeon at all and want to see what all the noise is about.

Sure I get frustrated by people who don't know what to do. Or won't ask what to do. Or just spam light attack. But those are also the people to me that make the group finder interesting.

Taking those people through a dungeon. Or zoning in to a half done dungeon and having the tank and the dps say, oh good you are our 8th healer I hope we can get through this... you know how bad you have to be to have 8 healers quit on you? Ok! Challenge accepted! Ps. It was a mess. Like hearding cats.

Anyway my point is, the guild is the option for those established players. Looking to better themselves and play with friendly like minded individuals looking to complete something smoothly and move on.

The PUG? The PUG is a land of chaos and carnage! Where who knows what you will get. I can only run a dungeon so often before I need something to entertain me.

You also set up a system where you have to have completed the dungeon before you can queue for it. That is backwards to me. The pug group is never the place to look for people who know what to do when. Sure there might be some of those people there, but the pug group is for ease of use. For those who don't have a dungeon guild. Or any friends who run dungeons.

But tldr: it is safe to say we are looking for two completely different things in our dungeon finders.

^^ This, if you want a smooth run, the group finder is not for you...stick with friends, the group finder is a cheallenge to see exactly how far you can drag a bad group.

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@josiahva I am not talking about removing that aspect from the game though?

I am saying keep that option. But allow players who have ran dungeons previously to queue with a more capable group. I don't see the issue with that.

Plus some PUG players are beyond help. You can only tell people the mechanics. You can't make them perform them. I can only type "focus on the totem" or "don't kill the handlers at the start" so many times to the same 3 people. If they don't listen it can't be 100% my fault.

This is true...some pugs are beyond help...this is why my pug completion rate for those 2 dungeons is 75% and not 100%. I dont disagree with what you want...you want to be able to finish pledges, farm gear, etc, I just don't think dungeon finder is or ever will be tool you want.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

max_only wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@max_only not what I said. Players are free to queue for specific vet dungeons. But players can also choose to queue for a vet dungeon they have completed with other players who have completed it so that players doing the vet pledge get a reasonably competent PUG.

There is no real reason for players just to accept that PUGs will be PUGs when the system could be improved.

I re-read and I understand now.

This is wishful thinking for Zos to add sub categories and account checks to the group finder when it doesn't even do (for a lot of people) the bare bones of finding a group.

I'd love a guarantee op group every time, but that can only be found with a guild.

The other problem is how it splits the queue. Take the wait time and multiply it by however many different queues you make.

InFernalEntity

Well as it stands the Group Finder itself is a long wait at best and incapable at worst.
Plus there are already 4 main queues as it stands.

Queueing for Normal Pledge.
Queueing for Vet Pledge.
Random Normal.
Random Vet.

This adds 2 more queues (bringing the total to 6) which would probably be reasonably popular. And assuming the group finder itself gets fixed...well finding groups in 5 minutes is the dream isn't it?

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Although I will say I would like to see an option to not join dungeons already started. While I don't think I would use it all that often. And maybe having to wait longer for a replacement would suck. Sometimes you just have time for one and you want it to be a pledge. Or you are trying to do the pledge. You should t be forced into a half way completed quest if you don't want to.

Junkkis

why not give pug partys 10% health/damage reduc/gamage/healing boost? just like wow have.

InFernalEntity

@Junkkis they already do. 50% boost to health and 25% increase to damage. Some players just don't understand the dungeon lol.

Junkkis

InFernalEntity wrote: »

@Junkkis they already do. 50% boost to health and 25% increase to damage. Some players just don't understand the dungeon lol.

i havent seen any buff

spend today 1 hour in pug becouse low dps in party and dps stand in fire

redshirt_49

That's a great way to make dungeons HELL for new players as you'll be stuck with 4 players without a clue what to do as opposed to having one or two guys there who can explain the drill

InFernalEntity

Dungeons aren't that difficult to figure out. No one has ever explained mechanics to me. I just used common sense.

Example: when the last boss in dire frost CCs me, she heals. Solution? Break CC.

Example: Mighty Chudan goes underground to kill the lightning people in RoM before the fight even starts. That's your hint. You might not understand the red circle the first time it happens but once you see Chudan dive underground then the 2nd time you should get it.

If players want to understand the mechanics they can. Trials I accept that it would be absolute hell. But normal dungeons are easy enough for a player to familiarise themselves with the mechanics and then take that on to complete vet.

The only people this would torture are the ones who just want to kill stuff without the hassle of added mechanics.

InFernalEntity

Update: just ran RoM (I keep getting this dungeon on Random for some reason?) on normal with 2 DPS and a tank. Everyone knew the mechanics.

This is what I want. I don't have an issue with PUGs as long as people know what they are doing. 3 players. Level 40 and under. (That's how easy normal dungeons are)

I'd take that group every time if I could. And that's all I'm asking for. An option to run dungeons with people who are competent.