Defining ESO, a divide of conceptual expectations
Spacemonkey
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357530/few-idea-for-chages-to-make-the-game-great-again-lol#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357434/how-much-percentage-of-your-playtime-do-you-play-alone-solo-in-eso#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/325165/trait-research-times-need-to-be-toned-down#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357564/i-have-been-told-there-is-now-a-hard-cap-to-increased-movement-speed-buffs-is-this-true#latest
Those are just a few (recent) discussions from the forum. Nothing out of the ordinary. Some would argue it represents the often claimed 'toxicity' of the ESO forums. I would argue it definitely represents and portraits a division in expectations, thoughts and wishes we have, when it comes to ESO. But most of these are at complete odds, in fact the arguments in these threads, posted by us, are at such complete opposites that it is somewhat baffling. Are we not all playing the same game? Have we not all chosen to purchase, play, and continue playing the same game?
Perhaps we are not.
The reality is that everyone will have slightly diverging opinions about what an MMORPG is. While back in the 90s or even early 2000s, it was very clear and simple what an MMORPG was. Technology and popularity in the genre has expanded this once niche type of game into something much, much larger, and vague. Where the term MMO is still used most of the time as its literal acronym of a massive multiplayer online game , the term RPG has lost much of its early typical definition, some games now claim or are labeled being an RPG because they have some kind of character development options and features, others because they have progression, and others simply because they have some kind of a non linear story. Heck there are even some games labeled as RPGs that have none of that. And there lies the problem. If we can no longer agree on what is an RPG, how can we agree on what an MMORPG is supposed to be, and end up agreeing on what should or shouldn't be in a game. How can the developers?
We end up with progression vs competition vs time investment vs skill vs reward vs economy vs large game world, mixed all together. Pairing up these concepts will be contradictory. So we not only have a divided player base but also have a game attempting to be conceptually at odds with itself. How can you balance a game that wants everyone to be competitive at any level regardless of gear/stats/skills/class anywhere. How do you fit progression or time investment in there. What is progression? What is an RPG?
Popular RPGs, whether on paper or in video games, use to revolve heavily on progression. Rewarding time invested in the game, with power. It is the increase in power, the promise of being able to do more, better, and take on things that you could not originally when starting out, that has hooked a generation (or 2, or even 3) of gamers. Its why D&D became so popular. Its why early MMORPGs became so popular. It got people 'addicted' in a way, to getting more power. This core concept, once upon a time so intricately tied with the definition of what an MMORPG was, is however entirely incompatible with the concept of game-wide competitiveness. It is also incompatible with the leveling field introduced by games like WoW in the early 2000s, that is the End Game. What folly is 'end game' in a construct based on continuous progression? The End Game promises and end to progression. An end to the 'GRIND'. A promise that any content from now on, you can complete. And that (conceptually) you cannot become stronger. And end to the one concept that drives people to play.
Are competition, are 'end-games' bad? Not at all. Simply contradictory to the entire progression core of older MMORPGs. It could be argued that it would be better to get rid of progression altogether. It would most definitely benefit competition. But what about time vs reward? What keeps people investing time in MMORPGs, when other games offer arguably better competition, take more skill etc... It is again, that shunned progression concept, but also the social aspect. But the social aspect alone is not enough. Players must be rewarded for their time. This generally takes the form of loot, prizes, exp, skills etc... The issue with these rewards, again, is that everything must be kept competitive and with 'end games' all these rewards also cannot become better than 'end game' level, indirectly creating issues for social economy aspect of mmorpgs. Sooner or later, end game rewards saturate any market, there can neither be any truly epic reward that would skew the playing field on a competition stand point, nor can that be any true rarity because anyone at end-game could obtain it.
ESO
I've been playing since Beta. I've seen ESO change a lot. Whether it was good changes or bad ones is entirely a matter of perspective.
When ESO started out, progression was very much a core concept. If you attempted killing something too strong, it would wipe the floor with you. (NPC, other player, slaugtherfish....). You could go out there, play some more, and come back 4 hours, 5 levels, and new gear later, and mop the floor with whatever killed you. You had progressed, were rewarded for your time, but granted, not necessarily for you skill. Slaughterfish would still kill you though. The progression was so much more present that world bosses warned you that you needed to be stronger. Numbers would only help you so much as ALL adds were triple or double diamond. PVP was also much less forgiving, a level 20 would not win vs a lvl 50 no matter what they tried in a 1v1. They may have been able to tip the scales in group battles however. Progression.
Ever since the Beta however, ESO has been moving away from progression. The fast tracking of exp to get people up to CP 160 as fast as possible. The half-fake CP progression system. The removal of any NPC/Zone/Monster level, the scaling. Same types of changes have been seen on many of the other concepts of the game. Now the removal of progression isn't bad, the tip-toeing-insecure way in which it is being removed however is most likely a source of diverging opinions, confusion and forum rage. There are a number of elements in the game I could point out that testify of themselves for this statement, and there are a number of elements , of 'remnants' of an originally core concept that is progression that are still in the game that are in themselves sources of debates; Should they be removed? Should they be modified? Left alone? etc...It is not what I am trying to discuss.
Rather what is or what should be an MMORPG?
To me, at its core an mmorpg is:
Tied to the core concept of early rpgs and mmorpgs. Progression. A promise that no matter what I do, there will be no backtracking. Depending on my skill, I might be able to take on things more difficult than I should, or need to progress more before being able to do things I should already be able to do. But destroying the first mob I ever encountered should always become more and more of an overkill, a testament to my progression.
The world should be large, and contain various different degrees of difficulty, some I can do right away, some I will need to invest time before being able to complete, and some I might be able to get away playing in, with superior skill. At any moment it should be a possibility that I encounter other players, hostile or not, and interact with them.
TLDR: since the idea is to discuss, you should really read at least parts of the above.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357434/how-much-percentage-of-your-playtime-do-you-play-alone-solo-in-eso#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/325165/trait-research-times-need-to-be-toned-down#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357564/i-have-been-told-there-is-now-a-hard-cap-to-increased-movement-speed-buffs-is-this-true#latest
Those are just a few (recent) discussions from the forum. Nothing out of the ordinary. Some would argue it represents the often claimed 'toxicity' of the ESO forums. I would argue it definitely represents and portraits a division in expectations, thoughts and wishes we have, when it comes to ESO. But most of these are at complete odds, in fact the arguments in these threads, posted by us, are at such complete opposites that it is somewhat baffling. Are we not all playing the same game? Have we not all chosen to purchase, play, and continue playing the same game?
Perhaps we are not.
The reality is that everyone will have slightly diverging opinions about what an MMORPG is. While back in the 90s or even early 2000s, it was very clear and simple what an MMORPG was. Technology and popularity in the genre has expanded this once niche type of game into something much, much larger, and vague. Where the term MMO is still used most of the time as its literal acronym of a massive multiplayer online game , the term RPG has lost much of its early typical definition, some games now claim or are labeled being an RPG because they have some kind of character development options and features, others because they have progression, and others simply because they have some kind of a non linear story. Heck there are even some games labeled as RPGs that have none of that. And there lies the problem. If we can no longer agree on what is an RPG, how can we agree on what an MMORPG is supposed to be, and end up agreeing on what should or shouldn't be in a game. How can the developers?
We end up with progression vs competition vs time investment vs skill vs reward vs economy vs large game world, mixed all together. Pairing up these concepts will be contradictory. So we not only have a divided player base but also have a game attempting to be conceptually at odds with itself. How can you balance a game that wants everyone to be competitive at any level regardless of gear/stats/skills/class anywhere. How do you fit progression or time investment in there. What is progression? What is an RPG?
Popular RPGs, whether on paper or in video games, use to revolve heavily on progression. Rewarding time invested in the game, with power. It is the increase in power, the promise of being able to do more, better, and take on things that you could not originally when starting out, that has hooked a generation (or 2, or even 3) of gamers. Its why D&D became so popular. Its why early MMORPGs became so popular. It got people 'addicted' in a way, to getting more power. This core concept, once upon a time so intricately tied with the definition of what an MMORPG was, is however entirely incompatible with the concept of game-wide competitiveness. It is also incompatible with the leveling field introduced by games like WoW in the early 2000s, that is the End Game. What folly is 'end game' in a construct based on continuous progression? The End Game promises and end to progression. An end to the 'GRIND'. A promise that any content from now on, you can complete. And that (conceptually) you cannot become stronger. And end to the one concept that drives people to play.
Are competition, are 'end-games' bad? Not at all. Simply contradictory to the entire progression core of older MMORPGs. It could be argued that it would be better to get rid of progression altogether. It would most definitely benefit competition. But what about time vs reward? What keeps people investing time in MMORPGs, when other games offer arguably better competition, take more skill etc... It is again, that shunned progression concept, but also the social aspect. But the social aspect alone is not enough. Players must be rewarded for their time. This generally takes the form of loot, prizes, exp, skills etc... The issue with these rewards, again, is that everything must be kept competitive and with 'end games' all these rewards also cannot become better than 'end game' level, indirectly creating issues for social economy aspect of mmorpgs. Sooner or later, end game rewards saturate any market, there can neither be any truly epic reward that would skew the playing field on a competition stand point, nor can that be any true rarity because anyone at end-game could obtain it.
ESO
I've been playing since Beta. I've seen ESO change a lot. Whether it was good changes or bad ones is entirely a matter of perspective.
When ESO started out, progression was very much a core concept. If you attempted killing something too strong, it would wipe the floor with you. (NPC, other player, slaugtherfish....). You could go out there, play some more, and come back 4 hours, 5 levels, and new gear later, and mop the floor with whatever killed you. You had progressed, were rewarded for your time, but granted, not necessarily for you skill. Slaughterfish would still kill you though. The progression was so much more present that world bosses warned you that you needed to be stronger. Numbers would only help you so much as ALL adds were triple or double diamond. PVP was also much less forgiving, a level 20 would not win vs a lvl 50 no matter what they tried in a 1v1. They may have been able to tip the scales in group battles however. Progression.
Ever since the Beta however, ESO has been moving away from progression. The fast tracking of exp to get people up to CP 160 as fast as possible. The half-fake CP progression system. The removal of any NPC/Zone/Monster level, the scaling. Same types of changes have been seen on many of the other concepts of the game. Now the removal of progression isn't bad, the tip-toeing-insecure way in which it is being removed however is most likely a source of diverging opinions, confusion and forum rage. There are a number of elements in the game I could point out that testify of themselves for this statement, and there are a number of elements , of 'remnants' of an originally core concept that is progression that are still in the game that are in themselves sources of debates; Should they be removed? Should they be modified? Left alone? etc...It is not what I am trying to discuss.
Rather what is or what should be an MMORPG?
To me, at its core an mmorpg is:
Tied to the core concept of early rpgs and mmorpgs. Progression. A promise that no matter what I do, there will be no backtracking. Depending on my skill, I might be able to take on things more difficult than I should, or need to progress more before being able to do things I should already be able to do. But destroying the first mob I ever encountered should always become more and more of an overkill, a testament to my progression.
The world should be large, and contain various different degrees of difficulty, some I can do right away, some I will need to invest time before being able to complete, and some I might be able to get away playing in, with superior skill. At any moment it should be a possibility that I encounter other players, hostile or not, and interact with them.
TLDR: since the idea is to discuss, you should really read at least parts of the above.
5
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Most threads calling for a change are due to the player experiencing a challenge with what he/she asked to be changed.
Often the don't look at the big picture. They usually only see their experience which is why the ideas get mixed results.
In keeping with the last paragraph of OP. Players are all at different levels of progression. Some have figure out how to deal with X Mechanic or X build while others still need to figure it out. It's really normal for an MMO.Edited by idk on July 5, 2017 6:13PM0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with the OP here. I have lately found myself becoming bored with the game simply because there is no forward, or even sideways progression to be had. The only thing left is do different content, which I may or may not enjoy. No matter what I do though, I can't get any stronger or more versatile. The exceptions to this rule being when they raise the CP level...but that difference is so marginal it may as well not even be there. What I want to see is access to skill lines from other classes open up...even if it takes 100 times as much experience needed to level them...or really, any goal worth working toward. Unless/until they make forward or sideways progression a think, my characters are stagnant and in and endless loop of replaying the same content.1 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
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i get it though - it's kind of a big part of human nature...
personally - i am absolutely amazed (and impressed) zos has been able to keep my attention this long...Edited by geonsocal on July 5, 2017 8:22PMPVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This is an issue, PvE need progression, it don't have to bee very much, the old CP system nailed it well.I agree with the OP here. I have lately found myself becoming bored with the game simply because there is no forward, or even sideways progression to be had. The only thing left is do different content, which I may or may not enjoy. No matter what I do though, I can't get any stronger or more versatile. The exceptions to this rule being when they raise the CP level...but that difference is so marginal it may as well not even be there. What I want to see is access to skill lines from other classes open up...even if it takes 100 times as much experience needed to level them...or really, any goal worth working toward. Unless/until they make forward or sideways progression a think, my characters are stagnant and in and endless loop of replaying the same content.
Current is probably too weak, or rater at 460 I will not much improvement.
Still lots for me to do but its an issue
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
aaisoaho✭✭✭✭✭
The most flawed part of the current system IMO is, that it do not increase difficulty linearly - we jump from one difficulty to another. There is no clear transition. For example, normal maelstrom arena is quite easy and can be a bore, but veteran maelstrom arena is much harder, I've had fair share of anxiety from that place already, but I'm progressing.
Old system had upsides and downsides. Difficulty was more linear, but you could out-level a zone and after that, it was way too easy, boring and non-rewarding. You could not adventure with your friends, if you were in different alliances and/or different levels. Most of the cadwell's silver zones were empty.
On the current system, we do not have a similar progression and linear difficulty. The way we progress now is practising your character, hunt some new and better armor and learning instances in and out. The tutorial we have shows only a tiny bit of things you can do, so that the new player can beat some small packs of wolves and maybe most of the overland content.0 -
SCSpecter✭✭Personally as someone who has yet to hit level 50 before (im 45 I think) I have a hard time figuring out what Im working towards. Is it dungeons? Trials? Trying to get gear set pieces? Should I grind until cp 160 before trying these things? I love the game I love the story and I love questing but I am having trouble trying to understand what my end game content is. Like in Destiny I know it isn't and mmo but my goal is always to hit max level by grinding strikes so I can get good light level gear to do the raid.
On here IDK if I should be just straight quest grinding to get to a high cp or if I should be mixing in dungeons and other things. It just seems like the overall goal of what to do in this game is lost on me.1 -
BrianDavion✭✭✭✭I tend to define a RPG differantly. numbers and progression, isn't roleplay, that's a game. (not saying these aren't important as it is a MMORPG not a MMORP) for me what diffrentiates a RPG from say... another type of game, is the immersion factor, the feel that you're existing in the world etc. and I think ESO has done a fantastic job of that (none, NONE of the complaints you've listed are roleplay complaints they're all GAME complaints)
just to explain what I mean by this though, World of Tanks. it has a progression system, you go into a match, earn experiance and stuff, and eventually get your next tier of tank. a very clear progression system.
No one would claim WoT is a RPG
Edited by BrianDavion on July 5, 2017 9:02PM1 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭
Exactly.The most flawed part of the current system IMO is, that it do not increase difficulty linearly - we jump from one difficulty to another. There is no clear transition.
This is honestly the tragedy of ESO and, IMO, the root of most toxicity. People will always find a way to be toxic, of course, but for now we have an ultimately flawed system which breeds enmity between players.
You play, you learn, you understand that 160CP is "the mark", you achieve it, go to your 1st vet dungeon... And enter the different game. Without any hint, without any warning - you were perfectly fine before, but suddenly you die, die, die, tank leaves without a word, healer says "Sorry, DPS isn't enough" and promptly follows.
Some will just abandon vet content, but I'm ready to bet that this would be minority. People tend to desire to climb higher.
So the majority will at least try to learn. They will google or ask. And enter the world of rather complex "meta", "rotation" and "dps-checks". ESO, let's be honest, is not a game with easy and intuitive system and on top of that - it remains absolutely silent about itself.
How many CP300+ did you meet, who didn't know what is "break-free" or "bash"? Damn right. And it's not because people are stupid. It's because you honestly don't need to break-free or bash in the majority of content.
So in the end if someone has the desire to experience any "end-game" there are two alternatives. Either one plays and then learns that they wasted months, because they did everything wrong or one starts playing already with the desire to be good in the game.
The desire to be a good player saves you from the brick in the head, because you start learning what works and what doesn't right away. But isn't it ultimately wrong that you need to read about the game almost as much as you play it?
And in the end... That's the divide. People who wanted to be good from the start (or near it) and those who "just played". And here is the enmity.
"Ffs, your DPS s**ks, go research some build, why are you on vet?" Well... the truth is - game doesn't warn anyone. And if someone doesn't have Combat Metrics addon installed (and lol, that's also so intuitive and friendly
) that someone would honestly never know that he was carried in group content this whole time.
"You toxic elitist, I play how I want, I didn't sign up for speedrun" Well... If you had Combat Metrics addon, you would know that you're doing only 10% of group damage. And it would be you, not me, hitting the scroll. Because I have an addon, I see everything, I have no desire to practically solo hard-mode... Great. You did it. Well, guess what? I'm also playing the game not working on a job and I didn't sign-up for dealing with HM alone in terms of damage.
I honestly can't understand how the system in which you can play for months without realizing that you do no damage as DD exist. I won't even start about healers and tanks, that's another level of hell.
We learn if there is a need. But ZoS are very, very afraid of creating anything (harder overworld content; open statistic system in dungeons, which would allow everyone to see their DPS/HPS; "Undaunted exam") that will say "You're not up to it, you need to learn, go learn", to players directly in their faces.
How are we supposed to get better if nothing in the game itself allows us to evaluate how we fare to begin with? Damn right. We only know when it's already too late.
English isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.2 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
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Exactly.The most flawed part of the current system IMO is, that it do not increase difficulty linearly - we jump from one difficulty to another. There is no clear transition.
This is honestly the tragedy of ESO and, IMO, the root of most toxicity. People will always find a way to be toxic, of course, but for now we have an ultimately flawed system which breeds enmity between players.
You play, you learn, you understand that 160CP is "the mark", you achieve it, go to your 1st vet dungeon... And enter the different game. Without any hint, without any warning - you were perfectly fine before, but suddenly you die, die, die, tank leaves without a word, healer says "Sorry, DPS isn't enough" and promptly follows.
Some will just abandon vet content, but I'm ready to bet that this would be minority. People tend to desire to climb higher.
So the majority will at least try to learn. They will google or ask. And enter the world of rather complex "meta", "rotation" and "dps-checks". ESO, let's be honest, is not a game with easy and intuitive system and on top of that - it remains absolutely silent about itself.
How many CP300+ did you meet, who didn't know what is "break-free" or "bash"? Damn right. And it's not because people are stupid. It's because you honestly don't need to break-free or bash in the majority of content.
So in the end if someone has the desire to experience any "end-game" there are two alternatives. Either one plays and then learns that they wasted months, because they did everything wrong or one starts playing already with the desire to be good in the game.
The desire to be a good player saves you from the brick in the head, because you start learning what works and what doesn't right away. But isn't it ultimately wrong that you need to read about the game almost as much as you play it?
And in the end... That's the divide. People who wanted to be good from the start (or near it) and those who "just played". And here is the enmity.
"Ffs, your DPS s**ks, go research some build, why are you on vet?" Well... the truth is - game doesn't warn anyone. And if someone doesn't have Combat Metrics addon installed (and lol, that's also so intuitive and friendly ) that someone would honestly never know that he was carried in group content this whole time.
"You toxic elitist, I play how I want, I didn't sign up for speedrun" Well... If you had Combat Metrics addon, you would know that you're doing only 10% of group damage. And it would be you, not me, hitting the scroll. Because I have an addon, I see everything, I have no desire to practically solo hard-mode... Great. You did it. Well, guess what? I'm also playing the game not working on a job and I didn't sign-up for dealing with HM alone in terms of damage.
I honestly can't understand how the system in which you can play for months without realizing that you do no damage as DD exist. I won't even start about healers and tanks, that's another level of hell.
We learn if there is a need. But ZoS are very, very afraid of creating anything (harder overworld content; open statistic system in dungeons, which would allow everyone to see their DPS/HPS; "Undaunted exam") that will say "You're not up to it, you need to learn, go learn", to players directly in their faces.
How are we supposed to get better if nothing in the game itself allows us to evaluate how we fare to begin with? Damn right. We only know when it's already too late.
Perfectly said.
It's a DPS cliff. And if we want the game to get better, we need to go about geting it done. Multiple difficulty systems that give people a linear form of progression to whatever they want to get to. Whether they want ultra hard, burning crusade difficulty or just wanna derp with friends, the way to fix this game, is to fix the difficulty system. Add two tiers, revise what vet is.
ZOS is alergic to the very idea of standards and teaching. That needs to stop. The system isn't flexible enough to where you can be alergic to those things.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 5, 2017 10:23PM2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭The fundamental design of eso was flawed. But it was moving ina good direction up until end of 2015.the issues arose when they deciexed the game wpuld be more profitable amd easier to develop if they just made easy bake holly hobby oven content and abondoned game enrichment and evolving development. Hence Tam one1 -
Spacemonkey✭✭✭✭✭BrianDavion wrote: »I tend to define a RPG differantly. numbers and progression, isn't roleplay, that's a game. (not saying these aren't important as it is a MMORPG not a MMORP) for me what diffrentiates a RPG from say... another type of game, is the immersion factor, the feel that you're existing in the world etc. and I think ESO has done a fantastic job of that (none, NONE of the complaints you've listed are roleplay complaints they're all GAME complaints)
Indeed, none are roleplay complaints. Well actually none are complaints at all, other that I feel that ESO contradicts itself on a fair share of game concepts. In fact I even tend to think alike in terms of RPG, but MMORPGs for me still revolve more around the numbers and the progression. Immersion being a side effect of the social aspect of the game (it can't really go any other way since it IS an MMO, as such your immersion will be influenced entirely by the social side). But that will differ from player to player. The numbers and progression however do not. It is what differentiates mmorpgs like wow, eso, eve, stor, gw etc... from mmo games like habbo hotel, club penguin, etc...
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Yarlenzey✭✭✭✭This is not MMORPG.
This is TES.I got suspenders for saying "Testicular Mass" instead of "Balls". like, rilly.0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
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Quoted for truth.
As old and "unchanged" Skyrim is, it still to this very day blows ESO out of the water dramatically. And it's not even because of the amazing mods Skyrim has going for it. No. It's because of how immersive and smooth it is. How deep the game truly is, and how much customization that you really have. Everything from bartering skills to master, to growing you own damn herbs and crops at your house. You can sleep on your own beds, and store things on mannequins and desks. You can jewelry craft and all types of stuff.
Meanwhile on ESO, we can't even interact with our beds. We can't grow our own herbs and crops. We can't store things in our houses. We can't jewelry craft. And so on. And this is a MMO! Bruh!0 -
BigES✭✭✭✭✭I really enjoyed reading your post OP.
I agree 100%.
Removing CP from Cyrodill/Battlegrounds was one of their biggest mistakes in this category. They basically told that entire group of people "screw your progression". A decision instigated by Streamers who don't consistently play/support this game anymore, and who honestly - weren't even that great at it.
The development team could learn a lot from the community on the forums, but they have selective hearing. One of the largest issues I've noticed is relaying information from the forums to the development team appears nonexistent. Or, its bad. We don't have a mouth piece. Because, yes, there is conflicting information. But simultaneously there are 1,000 posts asking for proc set nerfs for over a year and nothing becomes of it. In fact, the development team handed a group of popular MineCraft players proc sets as part of their play around load out. They are that oblivious.
There are a lot of helpful ways in which I (and others) would like to make suggestions on the direction of this game, but why waste my time if its not even worth theirs?
And hence, the direction of our beloved game gets driven by streamers, loud/incoherent forum trolls, and a development team that is milking the remaining life out of a game that should be blowing the MMORPG's of old out of the water.0
