ZOS, Something Doesn't Add Up (Morrowind Sustain Changes)

GrumpyDuckling

ZOS?

GrumpyDuckling

Updated on 3/28/18 to again question the decision making that led to the Morrowind sustain changes. Players have since adapted, including myself, but I still think that game play was more fun before the sustain changes.

Gravord

Well everything adds up now mate. Year of nerfing sustain and now you can pay to receive new skill line with excellent sustain options. Thats how business is done...

Peekachu99

I didn’t realize/ remember that they cut Constitution by 42%. That’s a Blizzard style knee-jerk that’s guaranteed a ripple effect. I love the game, but I do miss not having to build so much sustain into my toons.

Vizier

I don't think they can do anything other than "theory craft" the game, put it together and then see how it works out. There are too many variables to work out just in development. Things that are totally game breaking seem to be dealt with pretty quickly. I don't think we can expect anything other than a balance as you go. Folks can debate how that's been executed.

"Hard Data" is a relative term until defined. All that really means is they used what data was available, in whatever form, and moved forward implementing their vision. It's not reasonable to expect changes never to occur to key or even core attribute abilities/passives.

It would seem that since jewelry crafting has always been on the table from the game's earliest days it's fairly reasonable that would become part of the core game and not require a new chapter to be purchased to get it. (Disclaimer: I bought the upgrade days ago and am cool with it...just sayin.) I don't begrudge the profit motive, but I think it's a shame how "commercially compartmentalized" games have become in recent years.Fan loyalty, fan respect gets lost in there sometimes. I don't like being looked at as a resource rather than a fan. Maybe I'm wrong but I understand why people feel that way.

Silver_Strider

Argonian Master Race here, I have not noticed any sustain problems at all with Morrowind Changes.

MehrunesFlagon

Phage wrote: »

I just want to know what "hard data" made them think that turning Warlord from a stamina cost reduction passive into a break-free reduction was a good idea. They must've been high.

I was high when they made that change.I realize that it was a bad idea.

MehrunesFlagon

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

It took over a full year of CP usage before they realised that the 16% raise was causing some very serious problems. The prime cause for lowering the effect that CP has is PvP and Cyrodiil.

Everything you are seeing is a huge attempt to nullify lag in Cyrodiils PvP campaigns.

They realised that the CP was overpowered in a lot of ways, and people were able to create infinite sustain. That in itself WAS NOT how the system was designed. It was creating problems in PvP combat, and duelling.

Also, it was making PvE too easy. The trials were becoming too easy. The elitists and PvP'ers created a massive uproar about how it was becoming possible to faceroll even the hard content due to near infinite sustain.

Then there was the no-CP week, in which they proved that not using CP in Cyrodiil reduced ping greatly.

However it hasn't entirely worked.

It is now believed that the additional server-side calculations caused by the proc sets are causing even greater lag than the CP alone. It might be time to review Proc sets (Monster sets included) part in the game and maybe consider removing them.

The real problem is they gave it the nerf hammer as usual.It would have been much better to give it the middle ground and go 8% cost reduction.

xeNNNNN

Not sure it was worth a necro rather than making a new thread but eh I guess the mods will decide.

Personally while I have "adapted" I honestly just don't like it and haven't since they changed it. The builds I had fun with that arguably weren't meta or even remotely good but I enjoyed suck now and have done since they made the changes.

They turned the game into "you must slow down too enjoy the game" experience while failing too realise that "slowing the game down" makes it boring.

I had my issues with the "infinite sustain" problem in pvp but jesus this just was not what they should of done. They managed too ruin nearly all my builds pve and pvp and they weren't even built around infinite sustain, some of them didn't even have sustain they relied heavily on the reduction of cost. I haven't touched more than half of my characters since.

for a game that prides itself on playing how you want building how you want too build they certainly know how too curb innovation and fun and force you too play a certain way which we all are now whether we notice or not.

I know we'll probably get get cost reduction in the CP tree back but Geez do I miss it. Certain classes and races now just simply outperform everyone else in terms of sustain making other races utterly redundant.

kongkim

Stop you whine and adapt. Go play the game instead of sitting here.

GrumpyDuckling

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Not sure it was worth a necro rather than making a new thread but eh I guess the mods will decide.

Personally while I have "adapted" I honestly just don't like it and haven't since they changed it. The builds I had fun with that arguably weren't meta or even remotely good but I enjoyed suck now and have done since they made the changes.

They turned the game into "you must slow down too enjoy the game" experience while failing too realise that "slowing the game down" makes it boring.

I had my issues with the "infinite sustain" problem in pvp but jesus this just was not what they should of done. They managed too ruin nearly all my builds pve and pvp and they weren't even built around infinite sustain, some of them didn't even have sustain they relied heavily on the reduction of cost. I haven't touched more than half of my characters since.

for a game that prides itself on playing how you want building how you want too build they certainly know how too curb innovation and fun and force you too play a certain way which we all are now whether we notice or not.

I know we'll probably get get cost reduction in the CP tree back but Geez do I miss it. Certain classes and races now just simply outperform everyone else in terms of sustain making other races utterly redundant.

The sustain nerf also pushed resource management far into the direction of recovery. It's more efficient on most builds to run recovery instead of cost reduction.

Edziu

kongkim wrote: »

Stop you whine and adapt. Go play the game instead of sitting here.

yes, I adapted to sustain changes with morrowind, stopped pve here and was playing only pvp after this, then 2 weeks later I just quitted because it was end of fun for me after adaptation to biggest *** ever made in this game

Jameliel

Sustain is terrible in this game.

GrumpyDuckling

Jameliel wrote: »

Sustain is terrible in this game.

Apparently it was too OP. I'm still waiting on an answer to my original question in this thread.

GrumpyDuckling

Updated on 5/23/18. It's been almost a year since the drastic Morrowind sustain changes, and it still doesn't make sense that these changes were made if "hard data" was being used all along.

GrumpyDuckling

The next chapter and update 18 are about to drop for console (in 2 days) and we still haven't gotten an explanation about the data used to make the massive sustain nerfs in last year's chapter update. I still want to know, ZOS:

Did you use "hard data" when originally constructing the sustain nodes in CP trees, armor sustain passives, and class sustain passives?

I ask because it is hard to believe that you would make sweeping and substantial changes to sustain if you were originally using hard data to construct sustain nodes in CP trees, armor sustain passives, and class sustain passives.

You had data for how the game played without CP, but then still decided to go ahead and release CP nodes with cost reduction up to 16% - only to then later completely wipe those nodes out. Toss in some of the armor passive changes and we're talking about a 23% cost reduction for some builds that just went poof - and that's before even considering regen reductions to CP and armor.