RvRvR strategic thinking

Aztlan

I'm sure this has been said before, but the map of Cyrodiil, the three factions, the emperorship, and the value of home keeps and scrolls have all been set up to encourage the two factions with less territory at any given time to focus more of their collective energy on fighting the dominant faction.

So as an AD player on Vivec, it has been frustrating to see DC attacking our back keeps when EP has a clear advantage over both AD and DC. This afternoon, for example, EP had the emperorship, Chalman, and a DC scroll; they had Alessia and were attacking Faragyl in force. Good strategic thinking would obviously be to attack Chalman, right? But what does DC do? They swarm down to Black Boot and grab the scroll of Altadoon. From our perspective, it just seemed like DC was taking the opportunity to kick us while we were down, to their own strategic disadvantage. Although it looked like they were working with EP, I think that's unlikely. I think the DC hive mind just wanted some easy wins and AP.

Is this okay? I think this is the kind of activity that kills campaigns and just makes AD, or any faction in that situation, just want to log off. Is there anything we or ZOS can do to incentivize strategic over selfish gameplay?

Agrippa_Invisus

Is this EU or NA?

Aztlan

PC NA

Malic

Hi my name is Malic and i have a confession.

I use eye of the flame over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over on AD on NA server. I put a lot of thought into my builds, but AD willingly runs into my eye of the flame so there is no longer a need to strategically think about the campaign.

We win most of them now, with nothing more than minimal coordinated effort, and Eye of the Flame.

Aztlan

No longer a need, you say? Are you DC or EP? We all run EotS in groups, so I guess you're just here to find easy AP. You seem to part of the problem I was trying to point out. PvP in Cyrodiil was meant to require mindful cooperation and strategy. My question is, how can we encourage more of that and less of mindlessly pushing a particular faction down to their gates?

Malic

Valwe wrote: »

No longer a need, you say? Are you DC or EP? We all run EotS in groups, so I guess you're just here to find easy AP. You seem to part of the problem I was trying to point out. PvP in Cyrodiil was meant to require mindful cooperation and strategy. My question is, how can we encourage more of that and less of mindlessly pushing a particular faction down to their gates?

I am most certainly a problem, according to the AD tells I get anyway.

At one time I would agree with you, back in the VR days we actually had to strategically think about fights. Crown kinda changed that, dont know what to tell you the zerg won.

AD happens to have a lot of casuals it would seem, we've noticed RUIN tries thats about it. I mean best of luck but we'll be rolling your asses again this weekend, strategically think about that.

Agrippa_Invisus

Valwe wrote: »

I'm sure this has been said before, but the map of Cyrodiil, the three factions, the emperorship, and the value of home keeps and scrolls have all been set up to encourage the two factions with less territory at any given time to focus more of their collective energy on fighting the dominant faction.

So as an AD player on Vivec, it has been frustrating to see DC attacking our back keeps when EP has a clear advantage over both AD and DC. This afternoon, for example, EP had the emperorship, Chalman, and a DC scroll; they had Alessia and were attacking Faragyl in force. Good strategic thinking would obviously be to attack Chalman, right? But what does DC do? They swarm down to Black Boot and grab the scroll of Altadoon. From our perspective, it just seemed like DC was taking the opportunity to kick us while we were down, to their own strategic disadvantage. Although it looked like they were working with EP, I think that's unlikely. I think the DC hive mind just wanted some easy wins and AP.

Is this okay? I think this is the kind of activity that kills campaigns and just makes AD, or any faction in that situation, just want to log off. Is there anything we or ZOS can do to incentivize strategic over selfish gameplay?

Well, there's also this to consider --

In a three way system, sometimes an enemy gets tired of fighting a faction that's they're having difficulty overcoming. If one faction has too many Destro Zergblobs running around, the casuals and smaller guilds may start pushing the other, even if it is strategically inferior of a choice.

Because unlike soldiers, people will choose the more fun option over the more strategically/tactically advantageous option.

Speaking as an EP player, when there are two to three DC guilds (one of which is a destro/permafrost zergblob) camped in Chalman, it can become an absolute chore to shoehorn people off the bridge and get them pushing back our home keeps. Yesterday we had our gates opened while people sat in BRK and later Sejanus and farmed away merrily because they just didn't care. They didn't want to play with those players anymore and just didn't.

Yeah, it'd be nice if people did the wise / smart thing all the time, but this is not a perfect world. Players are going to choose whatever isn't a chore for them to do. Getting zergtrained by EP at Aleswell? Go putz around Nikel where the AD are all pugs and it's a more even matchup. Enough people make that decision and suddenly Nikel is overwhelmed and DC are on Roe Farm for the umpteenth time that day. Then Alessia flags and suddenly there goes Roe as well and then you're in Faregyl.

Trust me, EP sees the same thing happen routinely as well. It's always like that as the map dominance the last couple months is also heavily predicated by guild online times and population pools that fluctuate much more wildly than in the past.

Just my honest asssessment.

barshemm

Well from what I saw today there are plenty of DC who want to hold AD hands and coddle them. I think you'll be fine.

Satiar

DC gets easily discouraged and has few guilds that know how to take out a destro group. After a while of getting farmed at Chal/Bleaks they just go south.

The other night was infuriating tho. Zero DC helping me take Ash, Warden flips and then Aleswell... where the hell was DC?? Im guessing Dragonclaw.

Aztlan

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

In a three way system, sometimes an enemy gets tired of fighting a faction that's they're having difficulty overcoming. If one faction has too many Destro Zergblobs running around, the casuals and smaller guilds may start pushing the other, even if it is strategically inferior of a choice.

Because unlike soldiers, people will choose the more fun option over the more strategically/tactically advantageous option.

Speaking as an EP player, when there are two to three DC guilds (one of which is a destro/permafrost zergblob) camped in Chalman, it can become an absolute chore to shoehorn people off the bridge and get them pushing back our home keeps. Yesterday we had our gates opened while people sat in BRK and later Sejanus and farmed away merrily because they just didn't care. They didn't want to play with those players anymore and just didn't.

Yeah, it'd be nice if people did the wise / smart thing all the time, but this is not a perfect world. Players are going to choose whatever isn't a chore for them to do. Getting zergtrained by EP at Aleswell? Go putz around Nikel where the AD are all pugs and it's a more even matchup. Enough people make that decision and suddenly Nikel is overwhelmed and DC are on Roe Farm for the umpteenth time that day. Then Alessia flags and suddenly there goes Roe as well and then you're in Faregyl.

Trust me, EP sees the same thing happen routinely as well. It's always like that as the map dominance the last couple months is also heavily predicated by guild online times and population pools that fluctuate much more wildly than in the past.

Just my honest asssessment.

Exactly. The Malics of the world play to have fun as they see it, regardless of what is happening on the map. At least the leaders of major guilds should know better. I wonder if there is something that could be changed structurally to encourage faction loyalty and cooperation and discourage hanging out on the bridge or "rolling your asses" to the gates, as Malic so artfully commented.

IcyDeadPeople

Valwe wrote: »

PC NA

I thought DC has been dominating Vivec campaign this month on PC NA, no? At least there is usually a pretty big DC population during the times that I've played. For a while last weekend, EP was in third place behind AD as well.

IxSTALKERxI

As other people pointed out... People will continually choose to fight AD so long as you keep losing fights to them. If you don't want EP or DC to attack you, you gotta defeat them in battle so hard that it demoralizes them and makes them want to fight the other faction instead. AD is the easiest faction to 1vX, there is a reason why all the small scale players play on DC or EP and fight at Alessia/roe/bloodmayne resource or the bridge. It's because AD feed them 1vX clips and fun gameplay.

Solution: The average AD player needs to become better than the average EP or DC player. (It's why I've been trying to help AD with build advice /strats etc.)

NACtron

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

As other people pointed out... People will continually choose to fight AD so long as you keep losing fights to them. If you don't want EP or DC to attack you, you gotta defeat them in battle so hard that it demoralizes them and makes them want to fight the other faction instead. AD is the easiest faction to 1vX, there is a reason why all the small scale players play on DC or EP and fight at Alessia/roe/bloodmayne resource or the bridge. It's because AD feed them 1vX clips and fun gameplay.

Solution: The average AD player needs to become better than the average EP or DC player. (It's why I've been trying to help AD with build advice /strats etc.)

The average AD player needs to join a decent guild and work as a team. Indivual skill means nothing if you don't have the guilds.

IxSTALKERxI

NACtron wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

As other people pointed out... People will continually choose to fight AD so long as you keep losing fights to them. If you don't want EP or DC to attack you, you gotta defeat them in battle so hard that it demoralizes them and makes them want to fight the other faction instead. AD is the easiest faction to 1vX, there is a reason why all the small scale players play on DC or EP and fight at Alessia/roe/bloodmayne resource or the bridge. It's because AD feed them 1vX clips and fun gameplay.

Solution: The average AD player needs to become better than the average EP or DC player. (It's why I've been trying to help AD with build advice /strats etc.)

The average AD player needs to join a decent guild and work as a team. Indivual skill means nothing if you don't have the guilds.

Yep, I've been encouraging AD in zone to join a guild. I led a Ruin group on tuesday to try and teach them a thing or two.

Publius_Scipio

When DC gets to Chalman, they MUST start a heavy siege immediately. Not run around killing a few EP near the walls. Further, Chalman MUST be sieged from two opposite sides. This is a non-negotiable as the Ebonfart Fact will without a doubt send 2-3 (maybe even more) raids to defend. This will force the defenders to split up and will alleviate pressure when charging a breach. Then without hesitation DC must begin to spread out inside the keep with some setting up siege on the inner and others circling the keep for EP FC. It is imperative that DC keep circling the keep and taking out EP FCs asap. If these steps are followed the DC will have fair odds of taking Chalman even when up against what seems like a red tsunami.

The way I have been treated by my own alliance in Vivec recently is abhorrent. The vitriol aimed at me.... Aimed at me by what are supposed to be my own alliance members.... Fellow COVENANT soldiers, is quite frankly rude and unbecoming of anyone who swore an oath to uphold and fight for the covenant that is the bedrock of the COVENANT. Jauriel, Harlocke, Naked Saramis, assorted orcs, Noerse, Cornmuffins (or whatever the f[snip] you call yourself these days), etc.... Me, me of all people who even when VR4 and with blue gear charged into any and all battles against our enemies no matter who and how many. I who turn around, jump off walls, take detours, just to res someone simply because he or she is COVENANT.... And still to this day I will res a lvl 25 who I have never even seen before the same way I will res a CP 1,215 "legend" because being COVENANT means you are part of the team....

I get better treatment from people like Big Ernie than I do my own colleagues. The contrast is quite stark. I would be lying if I didn't say I was thinking about retiring.

Drummerx04

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

When DC gets to Chalman, they MUST start a heavy siege immediately. Not run around killing a few EP near the walls. Further, Chalman MUST be sieged from two opposite sides. This is a non-negotiable as the Ebonfart Fact will without a doubt send 2-3 (maybe even more) raids to defend. This will force the defenders to split up and will alleviate pressure when charging a breach. Then without hesitation DC must begin to spread out inside the keep with some setting up siege on the inner and others circling the keep for EP FC. It is imperative that DC keep circling the keep and taking out EP FCs asap. If these steps are followed the DC will have fair odds of taking Chalman even when up against what seems like a red tsunami.

The way I have been treated by my own alliance in Vivec recently is abhorrent. The vitriol aimed at me.... Aimed at me by what are supposed to be my own alliance members.... Fellow COVENANT soldiers, is quite frankly rude and unbecoming of anyone who swore an oath to uphold and fight for the covenant that is the bedrock of the COVENANT. Jauriel, Harlocke, Naked Saramis, assorted orcs, Noerse, Cornmuffins (or whatever the f[snip] you call yourself these days), etc.... Me, me of all people who even when VR4 and with blue gear charged into any and all battles against our enemies no matter who and how many. I who turn around, jump off walls, take detours, just to res someone simply because he or she is COVENANT.... And still to this day I will res a lvl 25 who I have never even seen before the same way I will res a CP 1,215 "legend" because being COVENANT means you are part of the team....

I get better treatment from people like Big Ernie than I do my own colleagues. The contrast is quite stark. I would be lying if I didn't say I was thinking about retiring.

HAHAHA, I died when you started listing other die hard DC, though I'm hurt that you missed me For what it's worth you are about the most DC DC I've ever seen. I don't think I've gone a day in Cyrodiil without seeing you in zone chat. Keep those camps coming buddy! Your soul gems are always appreciated by those willing to admit they can't take on an entire faction by themselves.

fastolfv_ESO

As a DC raid leader i can tell you if im trying to dethrone and ad takes ash (lets be honest it happens 100% of the time) i will turn my raid around and blast ad until they are down to back 3 b4 going back to EP side. Though what your talking about sounds like a special ED pug lead dc has thats obsessed with seeing his name popup on the screen from picking up a scroll and will pvdoor any keep no matter how poor the target is to fulfill the need

barshemm

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

As a DC raid leader i can tell you if im trying to dethrone and ad takes ash (lets be honest it happens 100% of the time) i will turn my raid around and blast ad until they are down to back 3 b4 going back to EP side. Though what your talking about sounds like a special ED pug lead dc has thats obsessed with seeing his name popup on the screen from picking up a scroll and will pvdoor any keep no matter how poor the target is to fulfill the need

I think he is referring to me but I'm not special ED, not sure what that has to with anything. I also rarely lead anything, thanks for assuming I go get scrolls all by myself. I do like seeing my name in big letters though!

Oh and no the scroll run OP is talking about wasn't me.

zyk

NACtron wrote: »

The average AD player needs to join a decent guild and work as a team. Indivual skill means nothing if you don't have the guilds.

Not everyone is willing and/or able to do this. One must assume that most existing AD are currently playing according to their constraints, level of interest and aptitude.

There are new players who can quickly develop into good players, but it is likely that all factions attract such players at a roughly equal rate - which mitigates playerbase attrition.

AD doesn't have a problem developing new players. But I think because of the way the game evolved culturally, AD has lost the most players to other factions.

It's not the fault of the average casual player that the teams are unbalanced. He's just some dude that bought ESO and is trying to have fun when he has an hour to kill. It's not realistic to expect players like this to be made into an elite or even competent fighting force.

AD needs more already experienced and organized players to bolster our ranks. I'm not asking anyone to switch over, but that's really the bottom line. This is a small PVP community that doesn't seem to be growing.

Dyride

Kinda surprised AD isn't more popular considering the queues for EP.

Did it break 200+ Saturday?

incite

The strategy was to take that scroll b4 reds did, you should actually praise them

Lord_Hev

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

As other people pointed out... People will continually choose to fight AD so long as you keep losing fights to them. If you don't want EP or DC to attack you, you gotta defeat them in battle so hard that it demoralizes them and makes them want to fight the other faction instead. AD is the easiest faction to 1vX, there is a reason why all the small scale players play on DC or EP and fight at Alessia/roe/bloodmayne resource or the bridge. It's because AD feed them 1vX clips and fun gameplay.

Solution: The average AD player needs to become better than the average EP or DC player. (It's why I've been trying to help AD with build advice /strats etc.)

That's quite a sweeping generalization. I'm a smallscale player, Montayva and I take whatever small 4-man group we got going at the time to focus DC for 75% of the day and sometimes all day if possible. We harrass DC resources/bruma to cut transit and farm their pugs until they cry enough in zone to send one of the guilds to zerg down the 2/4 of us. Most of the 2vX and 1vX footage I got piling up is of DC pug massacre.

Publius_Scipio

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

When DC gets to Chalman, they MUST start a heavy siege immediately. Not run around killing a few EP near the walls. Further, Chalman MUST be sieged from two opposite sides. This is a non-negotiable as the Ebonfart Fact will without a doubt send 2-3 (maybe even more) raids to defend. This will force the defenders to split up and will alleviate pressure when charging a breach. Then without hesitation DC must begin to spread out inside the keep with some setting up siege on the inner and others circling the keep for EP FC. It is imperative that DC keep circling the keep and taking out EP FCs asap. If these steps are followed the DC will have fair odds of taking Chalman even when up against what seems like a red tsunami.

The way I have been treated by my own alliance in Vivec recently is abhorrent. The vitriol aimed at me.... Aimed at me by what are supposed to be my own alliance members.... Fellow COVENANT soldiers, is quite frankly rude and unbecoming of anyone who swore an oath to uphold and fight for the covenant that is the bedrock of the COVENANT. Jauriel, Harlocke, Naked Saramis, assorted orcs, Noerse, Cornmuffins (or whatever the f[snip] you call yourself these days), etc.... Me, me of all people who even when VR4 and with blue gear charged into any and all battles against our enemies no matter who and how many. I who turn around, jump off walls, take detours, just to res someone simply because he or she is COVENANT.... And still to this day I will res a lvl 25 who I have never even seen before the same way I will res a CP 1,215 "legend" because being COVENANT means you are part of the team....

I get better treatment from people like Big Ernie than I do my own colleagues. The contrast is quite stark. I would be lying if I didn't say I was thinking about retiring.

HAHAHA, I died when you started listing other die hard DC, though I'm hurt that you missed me For what it's worth you are about the most DC DC I've ever seen. I don't think I've gone a day in Cyrodiil without seeing you in zone chat. Keep those camps coming buddy! Your soul gems are always appreciated by those willing to admit they can't take on an entire faction by themselves.

Those that I listed are just a handful of DC that want to see me excommunicated from the COVENANT. I wouldn't even put it past them that they would like to see me hanged, drawn, and quartered for all to see at South High Rock. My blood collected and strewn around Dragonclaw so that it marinates the fluffy white snow.

I! ME! He who has not once made an alt or played another alliance.... Not once used a addon (let alone some abomination such as the one Comrade Miat cooked up in his laboratory), not once even Googled Cheat Engine.... All the cursed souls I have sent to Aetherius have all been servants/soldiers/acolytes of the Aldmeri Scumminion and Ebonfart Fact! Even the gods at Zenimax Online Studios don't grace me with the slightest glance. I am cast in eternal shadow while 50' statutes of SypherPK are erected in front of the main entrance of the ZOS offices....

NBrookus

Valwe wrote: »

Is this okay? I think this is the kind of activity that kills campaigns and just makes AD, or any faction in that situation, just want to log off. Is there anything we or ZOS can do to incentivize strategic over selfish gameplay?

There are any number of nights when AD and DC will both push EP like there's candy behind the gates. Sometimes it's DC that gets pushed hard. Whatever else you want to call it, piling onto an faction whose forces are already occupied elsewhere is pretty effective.

The reality is this is a game and people are here to have fun and are going to choose what they do accordingly. Most people don't find getting repeatedly overwhelmed by a much larger group fun even when doing so is the strategic choice, so they look for a fight they have a chance to win.

As long as Zenimax's RvRvR approach is to continue mechanics like AoE caps and create skills that give larger groups innate advantages above and beyond merely having more numbers/damage/healing/group buffs, factions will stack whether the servers can handle it or not. The only option for smaller groups is to avoid them. That often means fighting the other non-dominant faction... whomever that is at the moment.