Thief vs shadow again

Stannum

Returning to topic https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3989924/#Comment_3989924
Tested on skeleton
HA fire destro only (no any buff exept w/s damage enchantment)
59CP in elfborn
5 gold divine
shadow (64.9% crit) 4922.9 DPS
thief (80% crit) 5018.8 DPS

Shadzilla

Stannum wrote: »

Returning to topic https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3989924/#Comment_3989924
Tested on skeleton
HA fire destro only (no any buff exept w/s damage enchantment)
59CP in elfborn
5 gold divine
shadow (64.9% crit) 4922.9 DPS
thief (80% crit) 5018.8 DPS

Pretty common knowledge tbh. I run shadow but he is stam and that is a different story. Maybe show some parse screenshots of what you are testing along with further in depth gear/cp breakdown. Will get more feedback from the community, just my 2 cents.

Toc de Malsvi

Stannum wrote: »

Returning to topic https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3989924/#Comment_3989924
Tested on skeleton
HA fire destro only (no any buff exept w/s damage enchantment)
59CP in elfborn
5 gold divine
shadow (64.9% crit) 4922.9 DPS
thief (80% crit) 5018.8 DPS

A few things things that could affect that:

Which class?

Was there Minor Force?

How long were your tests?

Lastly how many tests did you run?


The reason for this last one is that critical percentages do not directly reflect how much you are actually going to critically hit in a given fight. Your Critical Percentage might be 70% and you still might critically hit 60% of the time for one given fight. One thing that is certain is the the longer the fight and the more testing the closer the actual critical hit percentage will match your given critical hit percentage.

Stannum

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Stannum wrote: »

Returning to topic https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3989924/#Comment_3989924
Tested on skeleton
HA fire destro only (no any buff exept w/s damage enchantment)
59CP in elfborn
5 gold divine
shadow (64.9% crit) 4922.9 DPS
thief (80% crit) 5018.8 DPS

A few things things that could affect that:

Which class?

Was there Minor Force?

How long were your tests?

Lastly how many tests did you run?


The reason for this last one is that critical percentages do not directly reflect how much you are actually going to critically hit in a given fight. Your Critical Percentage might be 70% and you still might critically hit 60% of the time for one given fight. One thing that is certain is the the longer the fight and the more testing the closer the actual critical hit percentage will match your given critical hit percentage.

As said before no any buff (sets - Julianos and mother's sorrow)
Smth near 300 HA on 3kk skeleton each test (near 10 min each)
class warden

Toc de Malsvi

At 59 points into Elfborn you should be getting a 20% increase in Critical Damage, which would reduce the value of additional Critical Damage vs addtional Critical Chance. This is still true:

...What makes Thief better is the addition of champion points and Major and Minor Force. Without those Shadow would be better at a much lower critical chance than most people would think.

Axoinus

A difference of <100 DPS is likely due to variation. Hell, a lag hiccup would cause more variation than that.

My suspicion is that Shadow would be better or PvP due to crit resist that is out there. Thief would be better in PvE cause you might get more mileage out of your AOEs.

Toc de Malsvi

Stannum wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Stannum wrote: »

Returning to topic https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3989924/#Comment_3989924
Tested on skeleton
HA fire destro only (no any buff exept w/s damage enchantment)
59CP in elfborn
5 gold divine
shadow (64.9% crit) 4922.9 DPS
thief (80% crit) 5018.8 DPS

A few things things that could affect that:

Which class?

Was there Minor Force?

How long were your tests?

Lastly how many tests did you run?


The reason for this last one is that critical percentages do not directly reflect how much you are actually going to critically hit in a given fight. Your Critical Percentage might be 70% and you still might critically hit 60% of the time for one given fight. One thing that is certain is the the longer the fight and the more testing the closer the actual critical hit percentage will match your given critical hit percentage.

As said before no any buff (sets - Julianos and mother's sorrow)
Smth near 300 HA on 3kk skeleton each test (near 10 min each)
class warden

Well Wardens get no passive Critical Damage buff, but regardless of that your CP is going to swing output in favor of Thief over Shadow. CP, Major Force, and Minor Force all work to make Thief better than Shadow almost universally at CP cap. With very low or no CP and outside of Trials Shadow will be better at around 56% base Critical chance for Wardens, DK's, and Sorcerers.

Stannum

Maths tells that shadow should be better after 50% crit rate but tests says another.

Toc de Malsvi

Axoinus wrote: »

A difference of <100 DPS is likely due to variation. Hell, a lag hiccup would cause more variation than that.

My suspicion is that Shadow would be better or PvP due to crit resist that is out there. Thief would be better in PvE cause you might get more mileage out of your AOEs.

^
For CP PVP overcoming critical resistance will generally yield better mileage than getting more critical hits. For non CP PVP crit is often very very low so Thief is generally better. Critical Hits always do more damage than non Critical hits, but critical resistance will reduce the scaling on how much more they do.

Toc de Malsvi

Stannum wrote: »

Maths tells that shadow should be better after 50% crit rate but tests says another.

Elfborn increases critical damage. 59 points into Elfborn increases it by 20%. With 5 divines you are increasing your mundus by 37.5, so Thief and Shadow values can be shown as follows:

Thief:
1.375 * 11= 15.125%
Shadow:
1.375 * 12 =16.5

100 hits of 100 points of damage at 50% crit with 16.5% crit damage from Shadow and 20% from Elfborn for a modifier of 1.848.

50*100 + 50*100*1.848 = 14,240 (Shadow)

100 hits of 100 points of damage at 66.667% crit with 20% crit damage from Elfborn for a modifier of 1.7

34.875*100 + 65.125*100*1.7 = 14,558 (Thief)

So no the maths do not tell that shadow should be better after 50% crit rate. At your present base Critical of 64.9 it is even closer in favor of Shadow but still in favor of Thief. Adding two more pieces of divines would favor Shadow but only by 21 points of damage out of 15.7k.

64.9*100*1.848 + 35.1*100 = 15,503.5
vs
80.025*100*1.7 + 19.975*100 = 15,601.8

As it stands your testing reflects what it should, that Shadow is behind Thief. Particularly because you put 59 points into Elfborn.

Duckbutta

Sorry dude, but one parse where all you did was HA doesn't really prove anything. Luckily, this debate has already been settled many times over (at least for PvE) and the clear answer is always Thief for dps.

PS4_ZeColmeia

This is why I just go bigger base damage

Rev Rielle

You should have also done a baseline control with neither mundus in effect. And at least three replicates of each test.