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Tamriel Trade Centre Addon and its impact to the trading system
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BOOOOM! Spot on.
You win an award for the first 'dont want an auction house' thread, as this kind of price fixing is exactly why I'm happy with the in game trading functionality as it is now. Add ON's suck, v glad I'm console.
These are, actually, pretty common. The first threads were popping up back in early access (before there were any publicly available kiosks, for that matter.)
Actually, fun trivia: Back when the game launched, the guild store functionality was entirely private. There were no public kiosks to sell stuff to non-guild members. Those got added in much later.3 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Awesome guild store is great and master merchant let's you have average costs per the guilds you are apart of.
While not the best system, it's just a snapshot of what has sold and a timeline. The add-on mentioned by OP removes the ability for the market to flux by solidifying prices and placing them in one location bypassing the core of ESO; exploring and learning to play with others. While very easy, it also removed the core reason for making the economy player based; letting core guilds compete which dictate the prices of the items they sell. They also compete with each other providing another way to play ESO that other MMOs don't do very easily or at all.
While I would like to know quickly where that sharpened sword is, having 100+ guild stores with different items is unique to ESO. It wouldn't be an issue if items had more viable traits that could compete with them or if crafting was viable end-game. Then it could be fun checking out how guilds sell these items or finding the things you need to craft the sets you need.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Because nothing says amateur mindset like DAOC. Oh, wait.
I mean, that is the thing to keep in mind here: These weren't rookie developers. These were a collection of MMO devs, that fans tend to cream themselves over.
The hilarious part is, where they weren't simply copying Blizzard, and suddenly, a lot of those same fans flip out and cry foul, because other games do it this way, so why does this game have different design goals.3 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The "AH is evil" crowd apparently has never head of the price-controlled AH system that BDO has.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »BOOOOM! Spot on.
You win an award for the first 'dont want an auction house' thread, as this kind of price fixing is exactly why I'm happy with the in game trading functionality as it is now. Add ON's suck, v glad I'm console.
These are, actually, pretty common. The first threads were popping up back in early access (before there were any publicly available kiosks, for that matter.)
Actually, fun trivia: Back when the game launched, the guild store functionality was entirely private. There were no public kiosks to sell stuff to non-guild members. Those got added in much later.
And zone chat was flooded with "x item WTS x gold". I still remember those 50k+ vamp bites in zone chat and how players tried to control the vamp bites by killing all blood fiends lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual6 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »BOOOOM! Spot on.
You win an award for the first 'dont want an auction house' thread, as this kind of price fixing is exactly why I'm happy with the in game trading functionality as it is now. Add ON's suck, v glad I'm console.
These are, actually, pretty common. The first threads were popping up back in early access (before there were any publicly available kiosks, for that matter.)
Actually, fun trivia: Back when the game launched, the guild store functionality was entirely private. There were no public kiosks to sell stuff to non-guild members. Those got added in much later.
And zone chat was flooded with "x item WTS x gold". I still remember those 50k+ vamp bites in zone chat and how players tried to control the vamp bites by killing all blood fiends lol.
Also flooded with goldsellers spamin' up zone chat. I remember that.
Also remember those early bites. Man, 50k back then was WAY more than it is now.0 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
Because nothing says amateur mindset like DAOC. Oh, wait.
I mean, that is the thing to keep in mind here: These weren't rookie developers. These were a collection of MMO devs, that fans tend to cream themselves over.
The hilarious part is, where they weren't simply copying Blizzard, and suddenly, a lot of those same fans flip out and cry foul, because other games do it this way, so why does this game have different design goals.
Is "design goal" newspeak for we don't know how to do it properly? Group finder is a fine example of them there "design goals" you speak of just like 5 guilds and hunt and peck shopping.4 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭Your idea of "unique" seems to resemble my idea of "remarkably unpleasant."
When I want to buy something, I don't want to go around to 15 or 20 stores in 5 or 6 cities (often more) in hopes that someone is selling what I want in the quantity I want for a price that won't rip me off, and finally throw my hands up in the air in frustration and just buy what's in the last city so I can go back to playing the game. That's not fun. It's not enjoyable. It absolutely doesn't make for good gameplay.
Your argument seems to be that this website can single-handedly lead to/ aid in price fixing and manipulation but, in my (admittedly limited) experience, the base economic system of competing for kiosks and having no centralized means of checking prices or comparing locations the item is sold at seems even more prone to that sort of thing. The average person isn't going to run to every single kiosk looking for one item. They'll probably hit the capitals, a few major cities, and maybe one or two out-of-the-way locations. So if someone's selling things super-low in their podunk-nowhere kiosk just to get rid of it or because they have no idea what the actual price is, and I have a kiosk in a capital, there's nothing to stop me from going there, buying it, and reselling it in my kiosk at a markup. The average joe who sees it in my kiosk probably doesn't know it's available for less elsewhere, and I've made some easy money.
One of the biggest things TTC does is help level that playing field. As long as someone with the client/add-on has searched through that kiosk somewhat recently, everything listed there for everyone to see, no matter where that kiosk is located, where anyone can view it without even needing an account on the website. If the item sells with relative frequency, the accompanying add-on will even give you minimum, maximum, average, and recommended prices based on what's been uploaded to the site.
Functionally, it's exactly the same as a group of people monitoring all the items and recording them in a database for people to see. The biggest difference is that it's automated, and thus far more convenient for the way the ESO kiosks are set up.
And while it's true that the website can somewhat frequently be out of date and I'll still occasionally wind up going to five or six different kiosks, there's at least purpose and direction to the search. There's also the option to sort the list based on how recently the items were posted and search for the reasonably lower priced items that way. All in all, it's a decent enough add-on for my purposes, though I do wish more people used the add-on/client so that the website's data would be more up-to-date.9 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »BOOOOM! Spot on.
You win an award for the first 'dont want an auction house' thread, as this kind of price fixing is exactly why I'm happy with the in game trading functionality as it is now. Add ON's suck, v glad I'm console.
These are, actually, pretty common. The first threads were popping up back in early access (before there were any publicly available kiosks, for that matter.)
Actually, fun trivia: Back when the game launched, the guild store functionality was entirely private. There were no public kiosks to sell stuff to non-guild members. Those got added in much later.
And zone chat was flooded with "x item WTS x gold". I still remember those 50k+ vamp bites in zone chat and how players tried to control the vamp bites by killing all blood fiends lol.
Also flooded with goldsellers spamin' up zone chat. I remember that.
Also remember those early bites. Man, 50k back then was WAY more than it is now.
Yup! 50k was more akin to roughly 300k gold is now.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The "AH is evil" crowd apparently has never head of the price-controlled AH system that BDO has.
Ironically, I have. I'm also not under the illusion that BDO is analogous to ESO. I mean, one of these is a game where you're are literally never expected to log off. You're supposed to use the internal automation tools to keep your character busy while you eat, go to work, sleep, post on the forums...
I mean, yes, it would be disingenuous to call it a Korean grindfest game, but, at the same time, it is a very different game from ESO, as a function if its design. That includes many factors, not just the way its market works.0 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The "AH is evil" crowd apparently has never head of the price-controlled AH system that BDO has.
Ironically, I have. I'm also not under the illusion that BDO is analogous to ESO. I mean, one of these is a game where you're are literally never expected to log off. You're supposed to use the internal automation tools to keep your character busy while you eat, go to work, sleep, post on the forums...
I mean, yes, it would be disingenuous to call it a Korean grindfest game, but, at the same time, it is a very different game from ESO, as a function if its design. That includes many factors, not just the way its market works.
And all those other things you mention about it are totally irrelevant to the simple fact that with enough ingenuity you can have the convenience of centralized auction houses without that ultimate evil of price fixing... stay on topic.2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »Functionally, it's exactly the same as a group of people monitoring all the items and recording them in a database for people to see. The biggest difference is that it's automated, and thus far more convenient for the way the ESO kiosks are set up.
It's not, "functionally," the same, that is what TTC does. All of the database logging is manually triggered by people viewing that specific store. The actual scanning and uploading is automated, but it is "people monitoring ... and recording," what's been listed for sale.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The "AH is evil" crowd apparently has never head of the price-controlled AH system that BDO has.
Ironically, I have. I'm also not under the illusion that BDO is analogous to ESO. I mean, one of these is a game where you're are literally never expected to log off. You're supposed to use the internal automation tools to keep your character busy while you eat, go to work, sleep, post on the forums...
I mean, yes, it would be disingenuous to call it a Korean grindfest game, but, at the same time, it is a very different game from ESO, as a function if its design. That includes many factors, not just the way its market works.
And all those other things you mention about it are totally irrelevant to the simple fact that with enough ingenuity you can have the convenience of centralized auction houses without that ultimate evil of price fixing... stay on topic.
No, they are immediately relevant to the market involved. Again, simply going, "oh, hey, that game over there has this system, I should simply copy it," is how we get garbage like Dragon Age: Inquisition.
And yes, BDO is a different game, with vastly different market considerations. Now, I mean, if you want BDO's market system, you can go play that. No one's stopping you. But, that you're not interested in doing so suggests these two games aren't quite as equivalent as you'd like to claim.1 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
That would be the crowd that does want to control pricing... I thought we had agreed that those are the evil-doers.0 -
Giraffon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since were talking about the economy let me throw this out for consideration:
- The previous week's winning bid on guild trader should be shown during the current bid period.
- At any guild trader you should be able to pull a roster of all of the other traders in the game and what guild has them. There should be a location column with the name of the map and if you click on the map, it shows you where that trader is.
- There should be a single player auction house for all players to use. They can have no more than 5 items listed at a time. Guild trader system remains in place but if you are in a guild you can list 50 items.
So do all that and I'd call it better than it is now.
Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!6 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That would be the crowd that does want to control pricing... I thought we had agreed that those are the evil-doers.
Also, keep in mind that BDO has no direct player to player trading, so you HAVE to use the AH if you want to sell anything to someone else. And you can never give anything other than basic potions to another player.
Do you think price controls would work in an environment where you can freely trade directly with other players?Since were talking about the economy let me throw this out for consideration:
- The previous week's winning bid on guild trader should be shown during the current bid period.
This would only cause bid inflation
- At any guild trader you should be able to pull a roster of all of the other traders in the game and what guild has them. There should be a location column with the name of the map and if you click on the map, it shows you where that trader is.
I'd rather be able to see what guild owns a trader from the world map. When you hover over the trader symbol on the map, it will give you the NPC's name. It should also give you the guild name (or names if it is a hub)
- There should be a single player auction house for all players to use. They can have no more than 5 items listed at a time. Guild trader system remains in place but if you are in a guild you can list 50 items.
I'm not sure about this one or the development time it would take to create it.
So do all that and I'd call it better than it is now.
The Moot Councillor2 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love TTC. It tells everyone to list things over Market Price. So, I get to sell my stuff at market price quicker and make more money.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"6 -
rhapsodious✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorry, but I'd much rather use TTC to look for a specific furniture recipe I still need, or get an idea of how to price a new item, than traipse around to every kiosk on the face of Nirn.6 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That would be the crowd that does want to control pricing... I thought we had agreed that those are the evil-doers.
Also, keep in mind that BDO has no direct player to player trading, so you HAVE to use the AH if you want to sell anything to someone else. And you can never give anything other than basic potions to another player.
Do you think price controls would work in an environment where you can freely trade directly with other players?
What it would do is increase zone Trade spam substantially. It would also reduce the overall variety in the store by a significant margin.
Agreed.
By saying, "hey, this is how much a stall cost last week," you'd effectively be telling everyone, "okay, bid more than this." Since there's no point in bidding less.
In fact, this was a problem, back when the kiosks were first introduced. Anyone in a guild could see the bids, and there was a rash of spies.
It actually got worse. Because you had people bidding on kiosks with alt (nearly empty) guilds, specifically to push people towards their actual trade guilds, by eliminating the competition.
Yeah, I'm sorry, this one is a really bad idea.
I'd rather be able to see what guild owns a trader from the world map. When you hover over the trader symbol on the map, it will give you the NPC's name. It should also give you the guild name (or names if it is a hub)- At any guild trader you should be able to pull a roster of all of the other traders in the game and what guild has them. There should be a location column with the name of the map and if you click on the map, it shows you where that trader is.
Yeah, either one would be... sort of, convenient. I say, "sort of," because there's no consistent theme or approach to what guilds will list. Some guilds do try to focus on one thing or another, but when you've got 500 people, any theme is going to go out the window in fairly short order.
If guilds actually specialized, or had some incentive to specialize, then it would be different.
I'm not sure about this one or the development time it would take to create it.- There should be a single player auction house for all players to use. They can have no more than 5 items listed at a time. Guild trader system remains in place but if you are in a guild you can list 50 items.
The problem here is fairly straightforward.
The free slots for anyone would result in a very limited selection of items. They'd be cheap, but you couldn't pick and choose. You want Tempers? That might be your go to source, but if you're after honing stones, or steel, to say nothing of actual items or consumables, you'd be out of luck.
Why? Because with only five slots you need to pick stuff you know will sell. Otherwise you're just wasting your time. Forget finding recipes, mid tier mats, or anything unique and interesting. You would see stuff like Spriggans pop up, but those wouldn't be much cheaper than what you're finding normally in game.
Increasing the number of slots available to players in a guild is... kinda a wash. It would promote some price shift, though that's more likely to be up than down, as people list things they're more speculative about, and care less if they sell, because each item is 2% of their potential listings instead of 3.33% Which, might not sound like much of a change, but it would affect what got listed. It would increase variety in the stores, so, I mean, there is that. It'd also make flipping easier, and less of an investment, which gets back to the whole problem with price inflation in general.
I mean, I'd like 40-60 extra slots to sell stuff with, but I don't think that'd make the game better, nor would it help the economy.So do all that and I'd call it better than it is now.
Edited by starkerealm on June 21, 2017 7:13PM2 -
Draekony✭✭Honestly the high priced items are the only ones that "havent" been bought when searching TTC. I use that as a guideline but doesnt mean I'm goin to go buy the high price. Just need to vendor dig, use awesome guild store to make digging faster and find a good deal.
If it shows up on TTC and its cheap it was probably bought unless it was very very recent. Like plague dr infused 1h weapon, when I was looking for one, a week prior to MW, i noticed the only ones to be found via TTC were 150-180k. But youd still see some that were scanned for 15-50k. Just did some casual digging and found one at for 7k, low and behold in reaper's march where most of the high priced vendors are, it was crazy.
Do work, or pay the price. Search by time seen also.Edited by Draekony on June 21, 2017 7:24PM1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »This game is in dire need of an AH.
Not really.
I mean, when we're talking about people inflating the market, they're limited by how time consuming it is, and how restricted their ability to sell items is. Making that open to everyone? Yeah, I can't see how that would go horribly wrong.
There's nothing time consuming about checking an add-on, and there's nothing restricted about selling items if you're in one of the top trading guilds.
By making the trading system open to all you create a level playing field. However, I can fully understand why those who make the most from the existing system are so desperate to hang onto it.3 -
Fleshreaper✭✭✭✭✭Even before TTC came out, 1-3 people could manipulate prices to an extreme level. An example is flower prices on PC EU. 2 people, just 2 people nearly tripled the price of every single flower in the game until the bags from IC came out (columbine was 600 nearly 700 each). Spell power pots on PC EU went from 100 each to 180 each thanks to 3 people. The best example I can think of is Hakeijo's. 5k to 15k thanks to just 2 guys (same guys who did the flowers). Of course people will try bandwagon and jump on the opportunity if they can, but they don't have much impact.
So I don't see a problem with TTC when just 2 people can have that much of an impact anyway. Just helps me find items easier instead of searching every guild store in Tamriel for the cheapest.
Here I am setting here wishing I could find something like this. I would farm for hours, and sell mine for 100 gold less and watch the money just flow in. These people do all the work and you just cash in. Laughin all the way to the bank!0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »...this game is such a huge pain in the ass...
You know, you don't have to be here, right?
You remind me of today's main stream media.2 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, I suppose one positive effect is more people shopping at the remote guild traders and outlaw refuge spots.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »This game is in dire need of an AH.
Not really.
I mean, when we're talking about people inflating the market, they're limited by how time consuming it is, and how restricted their ability to sell items is. Making that open to everyone? Yeah, I can't see how that would go horribly wrong.
Yeah it's so wrong that no other MMO does it... oh wait.
Other MMOs is always the counter argument, but they always conveniently fail to mention the price fixing and inflation in those other MMOs. o.0
Fun trivia: With Star Trek Online, I actually hold my in game wealth in lockbox keys. I don't remember if I've ever bought any from the store (I think I have), and I'm pretty sure I've never actually cracked a box. But, the keys? Yeah, those maintain their value through inflation.
So, I mean, if that's what you want from ESO. A game where you're constantly trying to earn enough to counter inflation... yeah, by all means. Tell me how awesome it is to need 50,000,000 to buy a Sharpened Spriggan's Dagger.
At least in Star Trek, I can actually sell/find/buy things. /shrug
edit: seriously, could we at least get a keyword search & some better sorting options in the guild trader interface? It's like they specifically went out of their way to make it as big a pain as possible to participate in the economy in ESO.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on June 21, 2017 8:03PM3 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SchizoidMetal wrote: »Flame me for this, but this is pure truth and just looking at high valued items on their website. You will see how this addon allows for price control and fixing through the website. I know first hand how a website can be bot scanned for low priced items and bought and resold for stupid prices(price fixing). I thought the whole point of the guild trading system was to now allow trade to become centralized. Well it has and you dont have to run around looking at all the trade shops, you can simply go to their website search the item and it pops up the lowest priced one w/ where and who. This breaks the uniqueness of the trading in ESO.
Yes. And you can find several threads saying the exact same thing. TTC defeats ZoS' effort to stop antitrust conglomerates.
I'll take it a step farther. I was standing at a particular merchant in a thieves den for the better part of half an hour in the wee hours and noone came by once. TTC suddenly popped that it had an item I needed that was severely underpriced with the "now" label in the time column. I searched, found the item, clicked on it and after several seconds of being hung up got a message like 'no longer available' or 'item has been removed.'
Now, this has happened to me before and I wrote it off to the fact that anyone in that guild could have accessed the trader from any bank. But I started to get suspicious because this was a peanuts, East Coast guild trader at off hours. I asked around and it turns out that some guilds actually have someone list an underpriced item, someone else looks at the inventory with the addon activated, and then when it pops on the website they pull it off...
So, TTC is not only a good tool for cornering the market, it's also a good tool to bait and switch.1 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »This game is in dire need of an AH.
Not really.
I mean, when we're talking about people inflating the market, they're limited by how time consuming it is, and how restricted their ability to sell items is. Making that open to everyone? Yeah, I can't see how that would go horribly wrong.
Yeah it's so wrong that no other MMO does it... oh wait.
Other MMOs is always the counter argument, but they always conveniently fail to mention the price fixing and inflation in those other MMOs. o.0
My counter argument is that if price fixing is going to happen either way, I'd much rather stay off the horse-shrine simulator and just have to go to one place.7
