What's up with Class Design?

Hluill

I am guilty of resurrecting an old post about the topic, but too many didn't join the discussion because they were distracted by the act of necromancy, including a Moderator.

Am I the only one that wonders about the weirdness of the skill lines? With most of the classes it seems like "one of these things is not like the others."

My favorite is the Nightblade: Assassination, Shadow and then Siphoning? So, I am playing a sneaky, stabby thief that also drains life?

I have a similar problem with the Dragonknight's Earthen Heart line, and now the Warden's Winter's Embrace. Seems like the designer's like elementalists so much they spread out their skills among the others.

Mechanically I see the attempt to give all the classes some flexibility, but it just seems wrong.

My main is a templar that only uses her greatsword skills. I have three nightblades that specialize in only one skill line: an assassin that doesn't sneak, a shadow that doesn't assassinate and a siphoner that I think of as more of a necromancer or anti-paladin.

So many of the class lines seem so bleh to me. It's like the designers don't want pure melee builds.

Solariken

The secret to ESO class design is that there is no class design. Just a mess of "cool and fun abilities" with different color schemes per the lead combat dev.

Tasear

It's play as you want.

Mojmir

Tasear wrote: »

It's play as you want.

Too bad it really isnt

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Assassin that doesn't have steath doesn't make sense to me, seems like you would be a simple mercenary then.

GreenSoup2HoT

You know you can pick and choose what abilities you use right..?

I play a full on assassin/pvp ganker. Doesnt mean im using all 5 assassination abilities though.

phermitgb

yah, so...regarding the "flavor" of class skill lines...

I think there are several competing factors at play

1 - for some reason, designers didn't want ALL SKILLS to be available to any single character - sure, why not
2 - differentiation with equality - like you mentioned above, it *seems* like each class has a sort of elemental "flavor" included as one of their lines, while *trying* to make each of those lines be more or less "equal"
NB's have "shadow" (which I suppose you can think of as an element), DK's have *fire*, wardens have ice, templars have "light", and sorcs have lightning
3 - available to all - so, the "weapon" skill lines are one of my favorite things about ESO - a set of skill lines that are mostly functionally different AND available to ALL characters - I find this to be the most effective contribution to their "play as you want" promise...

so, I dunno what happened, but somewhere between the inception of ESO and the actual birth of ESO, some decision was made - the belief that players were ultimately going to want some kind of structured distinction between the various classes, meaning that they HAD to design some kind of...thematic...difference between each character "class" so that each one would be distinctive from the others in *some* way

while at the same time they still tried to, in a sort of half-assed compromise manner, make sure that ALL character *could* do more-or-less the same things as other character classes...just, in a different sort of way

and to their credit, they *sorta* succeeded - you can build a NB tank, you CAN build a DK damage dealer, you can even build a sorc healer if you really want to, or a NB healer, or...whatever

point is, that every character class CAN do just about all the same things that any other character class can do - just, in a somewhat different way with some being better at some things than other (NB's still have most of the "stealth" skills, templars get a lot of self healing, sorcs get a lot of damage options, and so on...)

point is, you're *sorta* right, in that not all the skill lines necessarily line up with each other within any single class, unless you consider that the class lines were more-or-less meant to combine with the general lines that are available to EVERY character to ensure that each class *could* do *all* the things - just, in slightly different ways

it's an awkward kluge, but it mostly seems to work, for ESO at least - and it's one of the things that I love about this game - my NB CAN actually function effectively as a tank, while obviously being a little more easily and intuitively designed as a damage dealer, and can even be a quirky but effective healer if that's the way I wanted to go - I suspect the same is true with all of the other classes - but each one will have a different style with which they approach each role - and, of course, with different styles and all the various synergies that exist in any MMO, certain classes will ultimately be better at some roles than others...

but still - for the most part, ESO *has* delivered on the promise that you can be effective in any traditional MMO role with any of the classes - NONE of the classes are *incapable* of being any of the particular roles - they just vary in effectiveness, depending on how you build them, play them, and certain skill/gear-set synergy limitations

Arenguros

I don't think the class design is actually that bad.

In your example of the NB I think Siphoning fits just fine.
You are a assassin acting out of stealth, striking fear into your enemies and preferably taking them out before they have a chance to react.
Failing to do so you rely on your agility and shadow magic to take down your foes. Evade attacks, cripple and torture them, you are so fearsome you can literally drain their power and life force while bolstering your own strength.

There is a problem for other classes and that mostly stems from players cherry-picking the best skills from different lines, but unless they give us different animations to choose from, there is little to do.
Like a warden with flame and lightning staves utilising frost magic, summoning animals and healing with nature magic ist just a bit too much.

lucky_Sage

they ruined frost so it doesn't matter making it a stupid tank tree and scales off health. been wanting to play a frost mage since prelaunch was hoping warden would do it think winters embrace would be mage skill and animals to be more stam based

Hluill

Thanks for the awesome responses.

For the record, I am not saying the design is bad... just kinda wonky. In many ways it is a great improvement over the flavors of fighter, mage, thief and cleric that are older than I. It's interesting that we still struggle with those constructs fifty years later.

My complaints would be that even this class system is restrictive. It's interesting that I avoid the restriction by not playing the classes at all. But, even then all the builds, even my pure two-hander, use magic... Well, that kinda opens up another bag of worms...

Xvorg

Hluill wrote: »

I am guilty of resurrecting an old post about the topic, but too many didn't join the discussion because they were distracted by the act of necromancy, including a Moderator.

Am I the only one that wonders about the weirdness of the skill lines? With most of the classes it seems like "one of these things is not like the others."

My favorite is the Nightblade: Assassination, Shadow and then Siphoning? So, I am playing a sneaky, stabby thief that also drains life?

I have a similar problem with the Dragonknight's Earthen Heart line, and now the Warden's Winter's Embrace. Seems like the designer's like elementalists so much they spread out their skills among the others.

Mechanically I see the attempt to give all the classes some flexibility, but it just seems wrong.

My main is a templar that only uses her greatsword skills. I have three nightblades that specialize in only one skill line: an assassin that doesn't sneak, a shadow that doesn't assassinate and a siphoner that I think of as more of a necromancer or anti-paladin.

So many of the class lines seem so bleh to me. It's like the designers don't want pure melee builds.

NBs in lore are also blood mages and that makes sense with the shadow line.

Zvorgin

Tasear wrote: »

It's play as you want.

Unless you find something effective... then it's NERF!

Arbitrator

Zvorgin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

It's play as you want.

Unless you find something effective... then it's NERF!

Or unless you're a Templar then you are automatically qualified for a nerf with no good reason or cause...

But seriously, Templar class design is simply the worst.
You got a wannabe Melee dps/tanks skill line that doesn't know what it is. You got a ranged supportish class line with mediocre skills and skills that are very situational. Restoring Light is our "healing tree" that is significantly worse than the new Wardens healing tree and even the Resto staff for that matter. The only thing good about Restoring Light is Breath of Life and Rite of Passage.

They need to give it a dedicated tank tree with offensive/defensive morphs (Aedric Spear), a dedicated damage tree with Melee/ranged options and morphs (Dawn's Wrath), and a dedicated healing tree which is obviously (Restoring Light) that focuses on healing in Melee range like a cleric, then have something to make certain skills or morphs extend the range for emergencies. Or give them a friendly leap so they can leap to allies.

There's tons of things they could do to have made the class unique, fun and powerful. Something needs to be done.

Mystrius_Archaion

Solariken wrote: »

The secret to ESO class design is that there is no class design. Just a mess of "cool and fun abilities" with different color schemes per the lead combat dev.

If only that were the case. /sigh

Give me no classes and no unique skills for specific classes and let me pick whatever I want to do and make it look like fire or ice or light or rocks and whatever color I want and I'll finally be happy.
I miss City of Heroes power customization.

Mystrius_Archaion

Zvorgin wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

It's play as you want.

Unless you find something effective... then it's NERF!

Or you find everything else ineffective and can't really play as you want, at least in anything difficult.

Hluill

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Assassin that doesn't have steath doesn't make sense to me, seems like you would be a simple mercenary then.

Kinda depends on one's definition of assassin, but I get your point.

For me, I can only play a sneaky character so much. I love glass cannon mechanics, but they take a lot of energy and focus to be successful. Most of my characters are a mix of survivability and lethality.

Hluill

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The secret to ESO class design is that there is no class design. Just a mess of "cool and fun abilities" with different color schemes per the lead combat dev.

If only that were the case. /sigh

Give me no classes and no unique skills for specific classes and let me pick whatever I want to do and make it look like fire or ice or light or rocks and whatever color I want and I'll finally be happy.
I miss City of Heroes power customization.

Never played CoH, but I've played a few games that were classless. Had quite a bit of fun experimenting with different builds. I have found memories of running dungeons with friends discovering what worked and what didn't. We came up with some goofy combinations that worked so well they stopped seeming goofy.

The_Conjurer

I have 6 wide heals on first bar, resto staff ult, dont hate. I have Light's ult on second bar and sometimes i swap it with radial sweep. i would go with what you ultimately want that character to be. Siphoning is there to give nightblades a way to last in combat for longer. I personally dont see a better fit than Siphoning. Leeching is the dark way to get health hence, the nightblade.

The_Conjurer

I accidentally didnt add what i statted writing that whole post about.
So, different shards and wraths i put in second bar and it pretty much a full dps bar. Wrath, shards, and weapon skills on second bar, that mean I use all three skill trees even though people only know me as a healer. I dont know if that was zens intentions ir not but it sure works well.

QuebraRegra

out of cycle, but there should have been BOTH a STAM and MAG morph for each and every skill, and "bound" weapon skill lines as an alternative to staff for MAG.

The_Conjurer

QuebraRegra wrote: »

out of cycle, but there should have been BOTH a STAM and MAG morph for each and every skill, and "bound" weapon skill lines as an alternative to staff for MAG.

that is probably the most amazing thing i've read in forums yet. Would be awesome to have conjured weapons and actually use my stamina instead of rolling around everywhere in combat just because i can

ookami007

Tasear wrote: »

It's play as you want.

The original Elder Scrolls were play as you want... these aren't even close... not even in the same ballpark.

The abilities seriously have no rhyme or reason and many make no sense whatsoever.

Rohamad_Ali

When I played the single player titles an then came here , I was surprised . I knew a lot had to be changed to fit in with a MMO experience but I didn't realize how much . Having abilities instead of powers and magic was hard to get use too . The five slot builds too . I was never a fan of cookie cutter template design with gear sets as the flash . It's been said a thousand times before , it's not real Elder scrolls , it's diet Elder Scrolls . But we are too far down the path now . Many of knew the vertical progression problems these class systems run into and exactly how long it takes to happen .

The_Conjurer

I dont see how it would work if this was basically skyrim online. Theres a reason why this generation mmos are so successful and unfortunately classes fall under that reason. Think about the rpg's by bethesda that we know. Combat was light and heavy attacks paired with utilities. Thats not technical when a mutiplayer instance is involved.

The_Conjurer

ookami007 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

It's play as you want.

The original Elder Scrolls were play as you want... these aren't even close... not even in the same ballpark.

The abilities seriously have no rhyme or reason and many make no sense whatsoever.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. A lot of those abilities might not make sense to you, but they could to someone else while being the staple skills in their rotation.

Mystrius_Archaion

QuebraRegra wrote: »

out of cycle, but there should have been BOTH a STAM and MAG morph for each and every skill, and "bound" weapon skill lines as an alternative to staff for MAG.

Or just let every weapon generate the resource we want it to. Make it a passive skill in that line available right away for a free skill point, or make it a game setting we can switch in options "weapons recover: stamina or magicka".

And yes, skill choices are ridiculous when they give us "stamina morph or more powerful magicka morph" especially when the stamina morph has no additional power and is alone in the tree/class as the only stamina skill.
Just look at templars. Why would anybody want to go jabs over puncturing sweep if they had tried both? One does just as much or more damage but heals for 38% of the damage done when fully ranked up and doesn't need to share damage resources with blocking and roll dodging and break-free and sprinting.....
Stamina is too big of a pain to use for damage compared to magicka so it's no wonder most players use staves once they have played a while.

Mystrius_Archaion

The_Conjurer wrote: »

I dont see how it would work if this was basically skyrim online. Theres a reason why this generation mmos are so successful and unfortunately classes fall under that reason.

That's not why they're successful. They're successful because of huge open worlds and other players in them making them feel alive even if you don't group. They're successful because many people like to grief others or pvp others or brag that they completed stuff others didn't. They're successful because they keep adding content and get boring slower.

The most popular games out there are not MMOs. The most popular are casual games and first-person-shooter games, and both of those have very simplistic but just plain fun combat.
I would rather not play a game because of complex combat, but "I need to be better at pushing buttons against a punching bag dumb npc" is the target audience that they add all the other features I love to.

Hell, look at Minecraft that does allow multiplayer and has very little to do with combat and what combat it has is simple. That game is super popular and been around now forever.
We all end up becoming "filthy casuals" once our physical or mental age hits.



Edit:
I just want a few simple things in any game I play....

1) I want it to look pretty in every way. A beautiful huge world with realistically attractive characters and clothing(we all like dress-up as much as any little girl does) and plenty of flashy animations and effects.

2) I want it to be mostly easy and just get easier as I progress so I feel powerful and get to feel like I never do in real life. Extra points for giving me the ability to affect the world and make enemies disappear permanently or become passive to me.

3) I like to build things from scratch to customize them, particularly in housing. Just give me basic building blocks and pieces and let me go to town without having to waste too much time collecting insanely rare stuff for a simple fruit basket or bookshelf.

4) Don't charge me like I'm some insanely rich person or lack self-control. That puts me off and ends up pushing me out of a game I otherwise loved. ESO is becoming super greedy in this way and it is really becoming taxing. I love supporting them with an ESO Plus membership and some crowns, but I'm not made of money.
When did the games go from a purchase and subscription not being enough for a popular game to adding $120 houses and $50 mounts every month or so being remotely justifiable?

exeeter702

Hluill wrote: »

Thanks for the awesome responses.

For the record, I am not saying the design is bad... just kinda wonky. In many ways it is a great improvement over the flavors of fighter, mage, thief and cleric that are older than I. It's interesting that we still struggle with those constructs fifty years later.

My complaints would be that even this class system is restrictive. It's interesting that I avoid the restriction by not playing the classes at all. But, even then all the builds, even my pure two-hander, use magic... Well, that kinda opens up another bag of worms...

It's important to understand that you should not shoehorn each class into a single archetype. The classes themselves are first and foremost thematically in line with what is represented in the lore of eso.

For your night blade example. A very large misconception from new players is they think by default that the nightblade class is strictly and exclusively an assassin of sorts. The truth is that a nightblade just as much a life draining mage of sorts just as much as it is a stealthy rogue.

The classes are thematic shells moreso than singular archetypes.

Reckquiem

Having the freedom to build your own class from not only class skills but the rest available to you is what makes this great in my opinion. Sure you will always have the "optimal" build for each class to do a specific role but that is usually flexible in my opinion.

MartinDeShade

I wish they did away with classes altogether. Just give each player choice of 2, or maybe 3 class skill lines, active at any one time. It would need balancing but it would be fun without anybody ever crying for nerfs, if you can change your skill line any you go to your capitol.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

QuebraRegra wrote: »

out of cycle, but there should have been BOTH a STAM and MAG morph for each and every skill, and "bound" weapon skill lines as an alternative to staff for MAG.

Then what would be the difference between Stam and magicka? Animations?