Warden in PvP

Trinotops

I am a PvPer who has been playing Warden (magicka and stamina) exclusively in battlegrounds since its release. I think that warden, although a decent class, is out performed by every other class in terms of PvP and I assume PvE as well. Here are some changes that I'd like to see to warden to hopefully make it more competitive in PvP.

Animal Companions

Swarm: As many have said before, turn growing swarm into a stamina morph. Currently stamina warden has no class DoT ability and must use a bow if they want a DoT.

Falcon's Swiftness: I used Bird of Prey on my magicka warden because I really enjoyed having the major expedition, but I often found myself using it only for that purpose. Major Endurance is essentially a useless buff as pretty much every player uses potions to get the buff. While minor berserk is a strong buff, I feel that the duration is too short to make it worth casting during a fight and is better used as a damage boost for burst damage. I propose that the duration of this skill is increased by 5 seconds to help make it a bit more consistent.

Winter's Embrace

Frozen Gate: Remove its cast time. I feel like this ability could be used as a gap closer on some unique magicka warden builds kind of like a pseudo dk chains.

Frozen Armor: A good passive for any warden tanks but is a very inconsistent skill for many others since most warden builds only use frost cloak which is slotted on only one bar. Maybe change it so that when a winter's embrace skill is active resistances are increased by 1000/2000.

Piercing Cold: As many have said before, change the frost damage bonus back to physical damage.

Green Balance

Fungal Growth: I think that this skill is absolutely worthless as it is currently. I see no reason to run it over budding seeds or vigor. For its high cost and difficulty to use, it should heal a similar amount to budding seeds to make it worth using.

Living Vines: Same thing with Falcon's Swiftness. I feel that its duration is too short to be constantly recasting in a fight. Increase its duration to 15 seconds, because currently I see no reason to run this over Lotus Flower.

Nature's Gift: A good passive for magicka warden, but its pretty much useless to a stamina warden. The only green balance ability that a stamina warden might use is Secluded Grove making this passive very inconsistent for stamina. Maybe make it proc off of any heal with a 2 or 3 second CD, or make it proc off of healing an ally.

Accelerated Growth: Another passive that primarily benefits magicka warden. Maybe make it proc off of any heal and reduce its proc threshold to 30% and/or reduce its duration to 1/2 seconds. This way warden will have access to major mending when they need it most and only when it is needed.


That's about all I have to gripe about. If any of you other newfound warden mains have suggestions on how to improve warden, I'd love to hear them.

LazyLou

Since I do both PvE and PvP evenly I also had a lot of thoughts when reading over the warden, I was actualy hoping to make a stamina warden my new main for both PvE and PvP , but right now I can't really justify playing it over another class, outside of a group in Cyrodiil.

I like most of these proposals except;

Falcon's Swiftness: I'd rather keep major endurance on this since it opens up another spot for an effect on a potion, plus it helps keep up your stamina regen as a stamina warden allowing you to focus a bit more on dps instead of heavy attacking or emergency allied healing, while being able to keep your resources slightly better. The 5 second duration increase would be fair, since it's a fairly high cost skill, you have very little leeway on re-applying it, since if you do it one too many times you drain your magicka pool like crazy and it leaves no room for any other skill, especially a stamina warden.

Piercing Cold: The Magic damage used to be Physical damage, not Frost damage (which should never be removed from that passive as it's iconic for a warden in my opinion), and it was basically the only passive that really boosted stamina builds, which have now lost a considerable amount of dps, but magicka builds barely got a boost to their damage. I would actually give it both Magic & Physical damage +Frost damage, since the stamina warden has a lot of poison and disease damage, the slight buff would keep helping out on that side while not making it overperforming, as for the Magic damage counterpart, magicka wardens really need this buff, even though it only barely helps out.

I would also propose that maybe some of the abilities (like Bird of Prey) get a more groupwide bonus on some of their effects (like the Major Endurance), this would make the warden, which is more a jack-of-all trades give it a better slot in a group, since they don't deal extremely high damage or aren't the best at Tanking or Healing, having groupwide buffs would up the groups survivability/damage and make it a more wanted option if you'd have a free spot in your group, I think Subterranean Assault is a good step in this direction as it can apply Major Breach and Fracture in AoE situtations, giving the group a big penetration boost on adds in a dungeon/trial and also if ran as a Tank it allows you to take the other morph of Puncture, Ransack, giving more utility/defense to yourself and the group, naturally these things would also give a bonus if ran in PvP.

I know it's rather annoying to think about the PvE part when you're thinking of PvP skill functions, but the fact that the devs want to balance them together makes it so we have to think of both situations.

Mojomonkeyman

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

scipionumatia

so pvp stam warden is the way to go ill take it? I'm on xbox so ill be getting my warden tomorrow. at the moment I'm planning on going woodelf stam warden planning on doing pvp with him. Aside from cliff racer, does the warden have a stam spamable class skill? or do we have to rely on weapon skills? ive heard the bear isn't any good and he wanders around

TBH I'm not sure which way to go, id like to make a warden that could go stam or mag since I don't know how to play to class yet. maybe I should go argonian just so I have the flexibility later in the game.

magictucktuck

I would like the 6% physical damage back but we get 2% overall damage per animal companion skill slotted isn't that better?? I main a stamina warden so if course I'll take the extra physical damage but that would make us have way more damage bonuses than every other class wouldn't it? Maybe I'm wrong but I just want opinions as I feel it's way better to have overall damage of even 4 percent since most of us will only have 2 skills slotted anyways. Since it buffs poison injection as well

SodanTok

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magictucktuck wrote: »

I would like the 6% physical damage back but we get 2% overall damage per animal companion skill slotted isn't that better?? I main a stamina warden so if course I'll take the extra physical damage but that would make us have way more damage bonuses than every other class wouldn't it? Maybe I'm wrong but I just want opinions as I feel it's way better to have overall damage of even 4 percent since most of us will only have 2 skills slotted anyways. Since it buffs poison injection as well

"Since it buffs poison injection as well" 99% stam buils in pve and pvp have only poison injection as nonPhysical damage. Making 6% better than the current version.

magictucktuck

SodanTok wrote: »

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magictucktuck wrote: »

I would like the 6% physical damage back but we get 2% overall damage per animal companion skill slotted isn't that better?? I main a stamina warden so if course I'll take the extra physical damage but that would make us have way more damage bonuses than every other class wouldn't it? Maybe I'm wrong but I just want opinions as I feel it's way better to have overall damage of even 4 percent since most of us will only have 2 skills slotted anyways. Since it buffs poison injection as well

"Since it buffs poison injection as well" 99% stam buils in pve and pvp have only poison injection as nonPhysical damage. Making 6% better than the current version.

It could also buff poison snipe, or any proc sets you are wearing and ultimates. plus its also buffing physical damage. so best of both worlds. and you can make it over 4% if you slot bear @SodanTok

SodanTok

magictucktuck wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

.

magictucktuck wrote: »

I would like the 6% physical damage back but we get 2% overall damage per animal companion skill slotted isn't that better?? I main a stamina warden so if course I'll take the extra physical damage but that would make us have way more damage bonuses than every other class wouldn't it? Maybe I'm wrong but I just want opinions as I feel it's way better to have overall damage of even 4 percent since most of us will only have 2 skills slotted anyways. Since it buffs poison injection as well

"Since it buffs poison injection as well" 99% stam buils in pve and pvp have only poison injection as nonPhysical damage. Making 6% better than the current version.

It could also buff poison snipe, or any proc sets you are wearing and ultimates. plus its also buffing physical damage. so best of both worlds. and you can make it over 4% if you slot bear @SodanTok

Yeah it can, but that is that 1% part of builds. You could have used Focused Aim and get the 6% bonus. Viper/velidreth builds got better... nice... they really needed it more than all nonProc builds :P
Also most ultimates are physical based (all of the popular ones)
And imho is still not worth it losing 2-6% damage from bear or dive (it used to buff animal skills before it was changed to buff everything)

But there is no point dwelling on the past. Wardens in PVP are pretty good. The removal of this passive was more PvE problem.

Strider_Roshin

I actually thought the stam Warden was over performing when I played as one during the PTS. Removing the physical damage passive was a sound change. With that said I'm looking forward to leveling one up tomorrow

Trinotops

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I will admit that I do have a stam bias maybe that is because I play without using proc sets and I feel like i'm under performing in battlegrounds compared to all of the proc set users. But how would you buff magicka warden? I'm not entirely sure myself as they seem to have a good undodgeable dps skill, a strong DoT, and great group utility. It's obvious that warden was intended to provide group healing and utility. I can't think of any way to buff it in terms of damage other than straight up damage buffs.

Anti_Virus

Too bad Archer Wardens are weak I was looking forward to playing one effectively. I guess its not popular but I'm hopeful that I can make it work.

Strider_Roshin

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Too bad Archer Wardens are weak I was looking forward to playing one effectively. I guess its not popular but I'm hopeful that I can make it work.

Dive needs to be faster, and dodgeable. This would be a good change for both PvE and PvP.

acw37162

At this point in Warden life cycle; absolutely not on swarm beings stamina based single target DOT ability.

That is the only change you mentioned I haven any significant feeling about.

Trinotops

acw37162 wrote: »

At this point in Warden life cycle; absolutely not on swarm beings stamina based single target DOT ability.

That is the only change you mentioned I haven any significant feeling about.

Why would you not want growing swarm to become a stamina morph? Magicka doesn't need two morphs especially since fetcherfly infection is the stronger morph. Giving stamina warden a class DoT would give them more options in PvP and I assume help them in PvE.

Trittium

Don't forget that one of our main defensives, Shimmering shield is in the same place as NB cloak where it only stops very certain spells.

So far it doesn't fully stop: Frags, Destructive touch, Vampire Bane, Meteor (I don't remember if scales do either, but if not then that's fine), Light attacks from lightning staff occasionally, Assassins will, and can still bug on bow skills.

As far as playing both Stam and Mag now, I agree with OP. Warden feels really sub-par.

Vaoh

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Too bad Archer Wardens are weak I was looking forward to playing one effectively. I guess its not popular but I'm hopeful that I can make it work.

I cannot fathom why Screaming Cliff Racer was given that 15% increased damage when at a longer range.

If that bonus was given to Cutting Dive, then Bow builds could effectively use it since it matches the ranged playstyle of a Bow and syergizes with the functionality on Long Shots passive (increased damage at a range).

LazyLou

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

Anti_Virus

Vaoh wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Too bad Archer Wardens are weak I was looking forward to playing one effectively. I guess its not popular but I'm hopeful that I can make it work.

I cannot fathom why Screaming Cliff Racer was given that 15% increased damage when at a longer range.

If that bonus was given to Cutting Dive, then Bow builds could effectively use it since it matches the ranged playstyle of a Bow and syergizes with the functionality on Long Shots passive (increased damage at a range).

Agreed especially since the stam variant has no morph effect.

Joy_Division

Vaoh wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Too bad Archer Wardens are weak I was looking forward to playing one effectively. I guess its not popular but I'm hopeful that I can make it work.

I cannot fathom why Screaming Cliff Racer was given that 15% increased damage when at a longer range.

If that bonus was given to Cutting Dive, then Bow builds could effectively use it since it matches the ranged playstyle of a Bow and syergizes with the functionality on Long Shots passive (increased damage at a range).

Because Zenimax's team believes the privilege of selecting a "stamina" morph is itself a significant boost the the main skill to warrant a morph.

Look a the sorcerer surge skill. It's based in stam: sorcs get nothing to make it magicka whereas the stam morph further augments the skill. It's the same with DK's Igneous Weapons.

I'm not sure why they feel this is appealing to us player because it's not, but that is the opinion they hold.

NBrookus

Trittium wrote: »

Don't forget that one of our main defensives, Shimmering shield is in the same place as NB cloak where it only stops very certain spells.

So far it doesn't fully stop: Frags, Destructive touch, Vampire Bane, Meteor (I don't remember if scales do either, but if not then that's fine), Light attacks from lightning staff occasionally, Assassins will, and can still bug on bow skills.

Wings don't reflect meteor. Used to, but that was a long time ago.

Adenoma

I just wish Bull Netch did something other than just the stam return and brutality like Blue Betty.

LazyLou

Adenoma wrote: »

I just wish Bull Netch did something other than just the stam return and brutality like Blue Betty.

Yeah, magicka users already have access to a purge, but they get one for free with the netch, this would've been perfect for a stamina user which has to rely on healers for a purge.

Mojomonkeyman

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

kungmoo

LazyLou wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

I just wish Bull Netch did something other than just the stam return and brutality like Blue Betty.

Yeah, magicka users already have access to a purge, but they get one for free with the netch, this would've been perfect for a stamina user which has to rely on healers for a purge.

That would be true if it actually worked.... I have yet to have it purge anything

Trinotops

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

Maybe instead of simply complaining about how weak magicka warden is, you should instead provide some suggestions on how it could be improved. If you're as well informed as you say you are then you surely should have some ideas on how to buff it.

LazyLou

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

I like how the first thing you do when you post is try to insult someone and it shows that you are just a very frustrated individual who resorts to insults when people do not agree with you, seems like you're the child here. When someone tries to be constructive and point out ideas, you don't go crying like a toddler to their mother like someone hurt their feelings.

Calling a class a "Handicapped MagSorc" just shows your bias to sorcerers, whereas the warden is just a completely different class that you can't even compare to a sorc, which at the moment in my opinion could use some work on their skills, since they have a toolkit that is too strong in many aspects, but makes the class less fun to play, because almost the same tactic can be applied in every PvP encounter. You keep complaining and complaining and offer little to no constructive criticism, you sound like one of those people who started saying the game was ruined with the sustain changes, because "oh no I can't wear heavy armor and not be killed by 4 people doing the same attacking me at once while keeping my resources topped off".

The warden's defensive side lies not in shield stacking, but the fact that it can keep putting on pressure with hard to avoid attacks with built in delays, a speed boost that allows you to circle around enemies making it harder for them to hit you, a trap style aoe that catches people off-guard and roots them in front of you, reflecting attacks while building ultimate or dealing damage, just to name a few things, the warden just has a completely different toolkit and coming up with different ways to use it is half the fun.

Also if you think an experienced player instantly dies when bombing someone who survive, then you havent met one trying it yet, because there's many ways to counter-play.

Not that I think I'll get a constructive answer out of this, since it doesn't seem like you're actually capable of that, but I hope you can prove me wrong.

Mojomonkeyman

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

I like how the first thing you do when you post is try to insult someone and it shows that you are just a very frustrated individual who resorts to insults when people do not agree with you, seems like you're the child here. When someone tries to be constructive and point out ideas, you don't go crying like a toddler to their mother like someone hurt their feelings.

Calling a class a "Handicapped MagSorc" just shows your bias to sorcerers, whereas the warden is just a completely different class that you can't even compare to a sorc, which at the moment in my opinion could use some work on their skills, since they have a toolkit that is too strong in many aspects, but makes the class less fun to play, because almost the same tactic can be applied in every PvP encounter. You keep complaining and complaining and offer little to no constructive criticism, you sound like one of those people who started saying the game was ruined with the sustain changes, because "oh no I can't wear heavy armor and not be killed by 4 people doing the same attacking me at once while keeping my resources topped off".

The warden's defensive side lies not in shield stacking, but the fact that it can keep putting on pressure with hard to avoid attacks with built in delays, a speed boost that allows you to circle around enemies making it harder for them to hit you, a trap style aoe that catches people off-guard and roots them in front of you, reflecting attacks while building ultimate or dealing damage, just to name a few things, the warden just has a completely different toolkit and coming up with different ways to use it is half the fun.

Also if you think an experienced player instantly dies when bombing someone who survive, then you havent met one trying it yet, because there's many ways to counter-play.

Not that I think I'll get a constructive answer out of this, since it doesn't seem like you're actually capable of that, but I hope you can prove me wrong.

No frustration at all, I just happen to have a young daughter who loves to explain the world to me. You are mistaking very objective testing results that just dont match up very well at the highest level with something else. You assume an awful lot and replied with probably the same if not worse tonage.

Probably cause you feel offended. I get that.

Doesn't change the fact that I stand to my opinion about the relevance of your unfounded opinion and the quality of your insights. Which is (in my humble opinion) close to 0.

Again, no frustration. I'm sitting actually quite comfy in my garden in the sunshine having a great day. I am simply stating how facts look from my pov.

Mojomonkeyman

Trinotops wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

Maybe instead of simply complaining about how weak magicka warden is, you should instead provide some suggestions on how it could be improved. If you're as well informed as you say you are then you surely should have some ideas on how to buff it.

Actually, I'm working on exactly that. A lengthy class feedback based on my findings and discussions with players who I know give quality input and apply similar testing methods. Why would I share my Ideas with random people on the forums who I do not think can provide valuable feedback at all?

LazyLou

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Trinotops wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

Maybe instead of simply complaining about how weak magicka warden is, you should instead provide some suggestions on how it could be improved. If you're as well informed as you say you are then you surely should have some ideas on how to buff it.

Actually, I'm working on exactly that. A lengthy class feedback based on my findings and discussions with players who I know give quality input and apply similar testing methods. Why would I share my Ideas with random people on the forums who I do not think can provide valuable feedback at all?

Then why would you post at all? Why would you waste ours and your time, if you're not planning to give any type of meaningful contribution to the discussion.

Mojomonkeyman

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Trinotops wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I disagree completely with your solutions. I was lvl 50 with my Warden on the same day prerelease hit and did only PvP since.

Your stamina bias is clearly showing. But reality is, that it is magWard that needs help in PvP. From reading your post, I highly doubt you have ever commited enough to magWard to even comment on it. You seem to have played stamWarden, compared it to other stam stetups and made up some fantasy fixing for your style of play without considering the bigger picture, including magWard balance.

Theres like 10+ EU stamWard twinks who own it like any other stam class in BGs with the current go-to setups (viper, red mountain, selene, etc), not a single impressive magWard though. I think that's pretty telling.

I actually have seen quite a few impressive MagWardens in PvP who have been making the most out of their burst potential, I played around with the warden on pts quite a bit and found some interesting combo's, especially on the mag side, which had a lot more utility (a free spammable purge for instance, which also gives magicka regen & spell dmg), or the fact that the magicka morph of scorch came with an inbuilt stun ontop of some heavy long range aoe damage (20x7 meters is no joke, you can stand in a door opening smashing people down, no problem), which I have seen people use in combination with Proximity Detonation, Eye of the Storm and Vicious Death to just wipe a zerg off the map.

Maybe your inherent problem lies with the fact that you blasted to 50 without really taking the time to actually learn step-by-step what the warden does (albeit, I don't want to judge, you might have done your fair share of playing)? I'd say MagWarden is indeed lackluster in PvE, but in PvP it is a very powerful opponent, especially the way they can easily make 3-4 skills hit at the same time.

The stamina counterpart though, most of it's issues lies with the fact that they rely more on weapon skills, thus becoming more generic like any other stamina class, with some added flavour, I wouldn't say this is a problem on the warden side, but more an issue with stamina as a whole, where proc sets suddenly become a more viable solution for burst damage, I mean, why would you take a standard setup, which leaves you in a lesser state compared to another stamina player wearing 3 proc sets just obliterating people left and right (look at those nightblade gankers, a lot of them wear selenes+viper and just off you in a second, before you can even break free, unless you are very tanky).

You sound like a child explaining adult stuff to grown ups. I don't mean that offensive, but your response and moreso the questions you asked make me think you 1) havent spend enough time with the class we are talking about 2) are not on the level to have a meaningful discussion on the class itself in regards to PvP.

I talk somewhat competitive pvp environments, your examples gives me headache cause a bombbuild has only purpose in zerg versus zerg which is not the PvP I play. Skill is irrelevenat in group sizes that make vicious, proxdet and destro ult desirable setups. We are playing two different games. Your "people I see doing well build" will not even scratch an experienced PvP player but make him laugh.

Aligning burst is possible with magWarden, doesn't change the fact that you're just a handicapped magSorc doing so. You have to go light armor or 5p heavy seducer, otherwise damage will plummet severely or sustain is not enough. Light armor means shield stack, non cp environments (BGs) means magica pool is very low and requires 7 light to give dampen a size of at least 8k. Necropotence is almost a must for above mentioned reasons. You can stack max stats and burst people and spam harness. You don't even need a class for that. You are just that, a handicapped sorc.

It's one thing to play around with a class and find some things "interesting". Completely different thing to have about 100 hours serious PvP time with it, having tested about 10 various light/heavy armor combos and actually having insights in how the class is working.

Maybe instead of simply complaining about how weak magicka warden is, you should instead provide some suggestions on how it could be improved. If you're as well informed as you say you are then you surely should have some ideas on how to buff it.

Actually, I'm working on exactly that. A lengthy class feedback based on my findings and discussions with players who I know give quality input and apply similar testing methods. Why would I share my Ideas with random people on the forums who I do not think can provide valuable feedback at all?

Then why would you post at all? Why would you waste ours and your time, if you're not planning to give any type of meaningful contribution to the discussion.

Because the onesidedness of OPs suggestions was just obvious to ignore and without opposition. Which is exactly what I explained in my first post.

RexyCat

kungmoo wrote: »

LazyLou wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

I just wish Bull Netch did something other than just the stam return and brutality like Blue Betty.

Yeah, magicka users already have access to a purge, but they get one for free with the netch, this would've been perfect for a stamina user which has to rely on healers for a purge.

That would be true if it actually worked.... I have yet to have it purge anything

Is Blue Betty bugged? Have tried to use it several times i PvE when getting hit by daggers, but wasn't sure if it worked or DoTs just timed out.