Why Two-Handed melee weapons are Forgotten and ignored?

Chameleonas

Hi everyone, I just wanted to share by thoughts about Two-handed weapons in ESO. First time I saw ESO trailer where Assassin is fighting a Nordic Barbarian was coolest thing ever. Even the idea of agily focused assassin fighting a raging berserker was great, speed and agility Vs strenght and brutal force of Two-handed Axe.

But my problem about this is that we have a Nightblade in game who focuses in assassin like features. and all what all history about Two-handed weapons get is dingle weapon tree with abilities who was no synergy and are lack luster, deals even lover damage them most other skills in the game and probably has only ability who need to be cast on melee weapon and still does almost no damage. and not a single class has any abilities who will come with a two-handed weapons or only can make in to a single build who still falls off behind at most other builds. And is seen as useless dps build for any content for end game for is underperformance in todays patches. Yes morrowind made a small improvment on a passive skills, but that small change dont make to much of a difference.

I still dont undrstand why the idea of mighty barbarian in game is so abandoned thing. And every single class if forced to play magica with Staffs or stamina with dual-weild and bow. Even health stat of its own if just to reach stupid hp cap. Even tanks dont spend points in health after can.

And why there is not even a idea to make class abilities to make usage of two-handed weapons.

Because we have Nightblade who is only assassin class that is focused in light weapons and bow and even has class skills for those weapons.
We have Templar who is Fixed class abilities to the Healing and doing damage with a magica based abilities, and u cant realy use with stamina weapons if you want to be usefull.
Sorc Who ofc is magica based class and has all skills fot the staffs and magica summoning based.
And there is dragonknight who u should think fits perfectly with the fantasy of elemental weapding warior with melee weapons, but then you get in to the skills and are surpriced that all skills DK gets is also magica based even if they are point blank range or a distance ones. And rest of skills fits only the Tank role cause rest of the abilities are damage mitigations and buffs.
And lastly we get introduced to a Warded who is kinda jsut a sorc and templar hybrid, that again is focused on healing, summoning spells and frost magic.

So in my mind I dont understand why make all classes the same is better idead them make them feel different and interesting in there own way? why there is none who wants to make A warrior class who even can sacrifice hit health for mighty blows, who could get though mass of foes. And even be able to go for magica based elemental charged abilities like my first thoughts about Dragonknight was before I get to play it.

I even think that many players will agree with me about some things that there is alot to explere in Two-handed weapons fantasy wise. That two-handed weapons and even 1 handed weapon and shield can be used offencively as nordic and other cultures widely used in history.

So thanks for the time, and I hope that in time there will be any development in this direction cause other wise whats the purpose of those weapons are at all.

Juli'St

Cause no need more change, ONLY NERF!

Vonbone

The two handed weapon seems to be more of a PvP weapon. I'm guessing because of the good single target damage as well as the knockdown effect. I PvP mostly and I have a majority of my characters using a 2hd weapon. Pve it seems about useless from what I hear.

Nemesis7884

it comes down to the same and same and same problem - you will never be able to balance pve and pvp - so either you make a very split game where you have clear pve/pvpe weapon sets / classes / skills / resssources which really limits diversity...OR you start setting different rules for pvp and pve - the same skills, sets, items do different things/damage to mobs and players...

VeenixO

I am a stamina DK and use two handed as my main weapon. I think if you use it in the right way and use the DK skills for healing, buffs and a little bit of damage, you can be a deadly player...

I honestly don't like doing damage with magicka based skills so I think it is just the playstyle....

ESO is made so that every class can play almost every role. Just play the way you like.... You want to be a badass barbarian with two handed weapons? Then do it! Go for a stamina build, use the class skills for healing, buffs or DOT and go wreck some stuff

Vaoh

Oh man.... Well to clear some misconceptions you have:

• All classes can fulfill any role. All classes can use any weapons. Also, every class has a Stamina or Magicka variant, based on whichever Max Resource+Damage you invest into as well as skill usage.

For example, if you are a Nightblade who spams Cloak and attacks with Strife and Cripple, while using a Restoration Staff and Inferno Staff whilst stacking your stats into Maximum Magicka and Spell Damage, you are a "Magicka Nightblade".
If you are a Templar who spams Biting Jabs and Resolving Vigor while running with a Greatsword and Bow, as well as stacking your stats into Maximum Stamima and Weapon Damage, you are a "Stamina Templar".

• As of the Morrowind patch, Two Handed Weapons are almost the same as Dual Wield, meaning you can use a Two Handed Weapon and still put out good DPS in PvE. Also, Two Handed is a very powerful skill line with many tools, and sees widespread use in PvP.

• If you want to create a Nordic "Barbarian" or "Beserker" with a Greatsword, I recommend choosing the Dragonknight class. It fits the theme well, similar to a Nightblade fitting the "Assassin" theme well.

Should you want to play as close as possible to a Nordic Barbarian-esque character, use Two Handed skills on the Dragonknight class as a Nord Stamina DK. Also fitting such a limited thematical playstyle will never be effective for PvE DPS in Vet content. Don't expect it to be since you'll purposely avoid using most of your powerful class skills.

Wasn't totally sure what you wanted tbh...... Hope that helped!

SpearDusk

Step into Cyrodiil, 2 handed weapon is everywhere:p
I think for pve it depends how you use it and what class skills you use with it as well, and it can be effective

Chameleonas

Please dont talk about PVP and about misconseptions. I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling. And pvp and pve should be totaly different things as they are. and balance for both modes should be separate cause not every player is playing PVP and not everyone likes PVE.

Thanks for those who offering their thoughts about Two-handers. ANd yeah as I could play as I want it most of the time gets all about how its effective as a whole. And that for example most and almost all dk skills are Magica and melee awepons dmg scales from stamina.

TheRealPotoroo

I've been contemplating turning my PvE DW/bow stamwarden into a 2H because I'm bored with DW/bow.It might work if I develop the healing line. If it did it would make a nice change.

hmsdragonfly

Chameleonas wrote: »

Please dont talk about PVP and about misconseptions. I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling. And pvp and pve should be totaly different things as they are. and balance for both modes should be separate cause not every player is playing PVP and not everyone likes PVE.

Thanks for those who offering their thoughts about Two-handers. ANd yeah as I could play as I want it most of the time gets all about how its effective as a whole. And that for example most and almost all dk skills are Magica and melee awepons dmg scales from stamina.

Truth be told, you may know enough about the game, but @Vaoh is a very knowledgeable player. Even the best player in this game will learn something from another fellow player. So, why don't you simply listen to his points, instead of telling him "pls stop teaching me bro I know my stuffs"?

Besides, his points are totally correct:
1) Two-Handed is totally viable in the game right now, there's no huge gap between DW and 2H anymore, for both PvP and PvE. It has been tested by the very top-tier theorycrafters, so whatever you have heard about "Two-Handed is underperforming compared to Dual Wield", it is outdated and isn't true in this patch aynmore.
2)
Magicka Dragonknight: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-dragonknight-build-pve/
Stamina Dragonknight: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-build-pve/
Magicka Nightblade: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-nightblade-build-pve/
Stamina Nightblade: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-nightblade-build-for-pve/
Magicka Sorcerer: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-build-pve/
Stamina Sorcerer: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pve/
Magicka Templar: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-build-pve/
Stamina Templar: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pve/

Now, do you see the difference between Magicka and Stamina? Whichever class you choose, you can go either Magicka or Stamina, and both are viable.

Kiralyn2000

Chameleonas wrote: »

Thanks for those who offering their thoughts about Two-handers. ANd yeah as I could play as I want it most of the time gets all about how its effective as a whole. And that for example most and almost all dk skills are Magica and melee awepons dmg scales from stamina.

That's basically how they designed the entire game. Stamina = weapon skills, magika = (most) class skills. And even the stamina versions of class skills still don't actually use the weapon you have equipped.

Like, you said

Because we have Nightblade who is only assassin class that is focused in light weapons and bow and even has class skills for those weapons.

The Nightblade class skills aren't actually "for" dual wield weapons. They're magic spells that happen to use knives as the visual for them - the abilities don't actually use the weapons you're holding - you could equip a two-handed sword on a Nightblade, and they'd still be stabbing people with daggers they're not holding.

Aisle9

I'll to try to answer to your issue as clearly as I can:

Two Handed weapons have more BURST damage, which means they can do more damage up front, but, in turn, they are slower over time. For that reason, in a min/max scenario, where you want to have the maximum efficiency, 2H are better suited for PvP, where health pools are smaller, and what you really want is as much burst as you can.

An example of the utility of 2H is wrecking blow/dizzying swing (uppercut morphs), the first gives you empower (20% more damage to your next attack), the second has a knockdown. Since we're talking about nightblades, ambush already gives empower, so the obvious choice is Dizzying Swing. Before they removed the knockdown to Wrecking Blow it was one of the most powerful abilities in the game, damage and utility-wise, excluding ultimates of course.

2H also have a pretty powerful executioner ability (reverse slice/executioner) which happen to be quite fast and easily animation cancelled, not to mention an incredibly powerful gap closer (Critical Charge) and a self buff with a HoT that doesn't require a target to cast.

As for PvE, again, we're talking about min/maxing, so, maximum effect, dual wield has the most DPS (we're talking about sustained damage over a long period of time, where burst is secondary), most of the attacks are dots, which means you can buff them all with Thaumaturge, instead of having to split points between direct damage and dots.

As for the bow, since the vMA bow is still pretty much best in slot, you really want to use Volley (I personally use the Arrow Barrage morph) so, the bow makes it for the best off-weapon.

After I said all that, the changes brought with morrowind actually make 2H builds viable in high end scenarios.

1) The Heavy attack charge time has been reduced.
2) Heavy attacks being part of the rotation, a 2H heavy restores more stamina than a 2H (which is still faster), since it does more damage.
3) There isn't a single passive (or active) in the Nightblade tree that says you need to use DW/Bow, in fact, the meta in PvP for Stamblades is 2H/Bow.


Also, you are not forced to do anything, you could DPS with sword&board if you want. The only reason Dual Wield is better is because the skills work differently and are better suited for the task.

I'm going to link you a video made by Alcast showcasing both, dual wield and 2H setups
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zRFf0gmz-I
The DPS loss is not that much, and the build is for endgame, so, dungeons/trials.

That said, some classes are more powerful right now, depending on the changes to the game, and the "balancing", so, if you're trying to get into vet trials and can't because of your build, keep in mind that's because some people want the "maximum damage build", or the "FotM build".

Hope this helped.

Vaoh

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Chameleonas wrote: »

Please dont talk about PVP and about misconseptions. I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling. And pvp and pve should be totaly different things as they are. and balance for both modes should be separate cause not every player is playing PVP and not everyone likes PVE.

Thanks for those who offering their thoughts about Two-handers. ANd yeah as I could play as I want it most of the time gets all about how its effective as a whole. And that for example most and almost all dk skills are Magica and melee awepons dmg scales from stamina.

Truth be told, you may know enough about the game, but Vaoh is a very knowledgeable player. Even the best player in this game will learn something from another fellow player. So, why don't you simply listen to his points, instead of telling him "pls stop teaching me bro I know my stuffs"?

Besides, his points are totally correct:
1) Two-Handed is totally viable in the game right not, there's no huge gap between DW and 2H anymore, for both PvP and PvE. It has been tested by the very top-tier theorycrafters, so whatever you have heard about "Two-Handed is underperforming compared to Dual Wield", it is outdated and isn't true in this patch aynmore.
2)
Magicka Dragonknight: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-dragonknight-build-pve/
Stamina Dragonknight: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-build-pve/
Magicka Nightblade: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-nightblade-build-pve/
Stamina Nightblade: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-nightblade-build-for-pve/
Magicka Sorcerer: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-build-pve/
Stamina Sorcerer: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pve/
Magicka Templar: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-build-pve/
Stamina Templar: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pve/

Now, do you see the difference between Magicka and Stamina? Whichever class you choose, you can go either Magicka and Stamina, and both are viable.

Ty, but it looks like I just wasted my time writing my post to help this person. Most players don't like hearing that something they have told themselves for awhile and affirmed by other like-minded players is no longer true in a recent patch. Idk why I bothered.

MehrunesFlagon

Vonbone wrote: »

The two handed weapon seems to be more of a PvP weapon. I'm guessing because of the good single target damage as well as the knockdown effect. I PvP mostly and I have a majority of my characters using a 2hd weapon. Pve it seems about useless from what I hear.

It would likely take a complete rework of the skill line to make it close to equal to dual wield. Really can only see templar and nb using it under the current way they are in pve, and that's only cause of some of the class skills they have. We also know their status in pve,but different story entirely.

Skjoldur

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

I've been contemplating turning my PvE DW/bow stamwarden into a 2H because I'm bored with DW/bow.It might work if I develop the healing line. If it did it would make a nice change.

Had the same thought. I started playing 2h until I realized how much better dw was... I might try a 2h warden though

mook-eb16_ESO

so what about the buffs in morrowind to 2h splash damage?

Ihatenightblades

Chameleonas wrote: »

Hi everyone, I just wanted to share by thoughts about Two-handed weapons in ESO. First time I saw ESO trailer where Assassin is fighting a Nordic Barbarian was coolest thing ever. Even the idea of agily focused assassin fighting a raging berserker was great, speed and agility Vs strenght and brutal force of Two-handed Axe.

But my problem about this is that we have a Nightblade in game who focuses in assassin like features. and all what all history about Two-handed weapons get is dingle weapon tree with abilities who was no synergy and are lack luster, deals even lover damage them most other skills in the game and probably has only ability who need to be cast on melee weapon and still does almost no damage. and not a single class has any abilities who will come with a two-handed weapons or only can make in to a single build who still falls off behind at most other builds. And is seen as useless dps build for any content for end game for is underperformance in todays patches. Yes morrowind made a small improvment on a passive skills, but that small change dont make to much of a difference.

I still dont undrstand why the idea of mighty barbarian in game is so abandoned thing. And every single class if forced to play magica with Staffs or stamina with dual-weild and bow. Even health stat of its own if just to reach stupid hp cap. Even tanks dont spend points in health after can.

And why there is not even a idea to make class abilities to make usage of two-handed weapons.

Because we have Nightblade who is only assassin class that is focused in light weapons and bow and even has class skills for those weapons.
We have Templar who is Fixed class abilities to the Healing and doing damage with a magica based abilities, and u cant realy use with stamina weapons if you want to be usefull.
Sorc Who ofc is magica based class and has all skills fot the staffs and magica summoning based.
And there is dragonknight who u should think fits perfectly with the fantasy of elemental weapding warior with melee weapons, but then you get in to the skills and are surpriced that all skills DK gets is also magica based even if they are point blank range or a distance ones. And rest of skills fits only the Tank role cause rest of the abilities are damage mitigations and buffs.
And lastly we get introduced to a Warded who is kinda jsut a sorc and templar hybrid, that again is focused on healing, summoning spells and frost magic.

So in my mind I dont understand why make all classes the same is better idead them make them feel different and interesting in there own way? why there is none who wants to make A warrior class who even can sacrifice hit health for mighty blows, who could get though mass of foes. And even be able to go for magica based elemental charged abilities like my first thoughts about Dragonknight was before I get to play it.

I even think that many players will agree with me about some things that there is alot to explere in Two-handed weapons fantasy wise. That two-handed weapons and even 1 handed weapon and shield can be used offencively as nordic and other cultures widely used in history.

So thanks for the time, and I hope that in time there will be any development in this direction cause other wise whats the purpose of those weapons are at all.

2h is a great for pvp really great actually.

I do agree that the 2h skills are really simple and I honestly dont think ZoS ever intended 2h to be viable in pve

Even with changes adding splash damage with heavy attacks still doesnt make it viable in pve

dw and bow is the best way to go. If 2h counted as two set pieces it would be very close but the fact that it doesnt do much dps AND u lose a bonus just makes it not worth doing at all

F7sus4

Chameleonas wrote: »

Please dont talk about PVP and about misconseptions. I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling.

Illusion of knowledge is a bad thing. Please be mature enough to appreciate hints from the most knowledgeable people around. Thanks.

DeadlyRecluse

Chameleonas wrote: »

I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling.

Chameleonas wrote: »

We have Templar who is Fixed class abilities to the Healing and doing damage with a magica based abilities, and u cant realy use with stamina weapons if you want to be usefull.
Sorc Who ofc is magica based class and has all skills fot the staffs and magica summoning based.

No, no you don't.

starkerealm

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

...I honestly dont think ZoS ever intended 2h to be viable in pve

I can't agree with that. Two handers fill a different, less aggressive role than dual wield. That's still true post Morrowind. If you mean they were never intended to be the best possible DPS tool available to players, then, yeah, that I can agree with. Two Handers are a fantastic option to add some survival options to a stamina build, without fully sacrificing damage and pulling out a sword and board. They may not be what you're looking for in your builds, but they've got some real utility options for PvE. Especially solo PvE.

starkerealm

Chameleonas wrote: »

Please dont talk about PVP and about misconseptions. I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling.

No. You really don't.

You've been on these boards for a day. You haven't learned that there are stamina morphs for class abilities. You seem to think weapon and armor choices are tied to class. You do not know what you're talking about.

Hallothiel

Gods post like these show me I know so little about playing this game well!

I have 2 x 2h templars. Can't remember my reasons for doing so but hey, having fun. Both are magicka based but use the 2H / stamina to give the magic a chance to recover. And it's fun to whack things hard with a big sword.

Yeah, no I don't do end game dungeons. But do enough damage to get through most things.

QuebraRegra

SnowFury wrote: »

Step into Cyrodiil, 2 handed weapon is everywhere:p
I think for pve it depends how you use it and what class skills you use with it as well, and it can be effective

remember WB, WB, WB, WB, WB spam infinitum? No one ever needs to cry about 2h to me ever again.. ever.

Mazbt

2h isn't meta in vet pve applications...that's still a somewhat small part of the game as a whole. It's not forgotten anywhere else.

Strider_Roshin

I love how the people in these forums go from "stop balancing the game around PvP, it's ruining the game!" to "No need to buff the 2H since it's strong in PvP".

JiKama

I'm using 2 handed on my Stam Sorc and Stam Warden. I just like the crunch and smack of 2handed weapons. I like to layeth the smacketh down.

leepalmer95

2h is a must for stam builds in pvp.

You can easily do 95%+ of pve including vet trials if you build right using 2h dps.

2h is fine?

You should take advice when more experienced and knowledgeable players like @Vaoh actually take time to write you a detailed and large paragraph of information and actually answers your question.

starkerealm

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Chameleonas wrote: »

I know enough about game to tell what I'm telling.

Chameleonas wrote: »

We have Templar who is Fixed class abilities to the Healing and doing damage with a magica based abilities, and u cant realy use with stamina weapons if you want to be usefull.
Sorc Who ofc is magica based class and has all skills fot the staffs and magica summoning based.

No, no you don't.

Bonus points in that sorcs in medium or heavy armor using conventional weapons, and supplementing them with class abilities for utility are absolutely a thing.

Mettaricana

I love 2h and looking forward to taking it back once morrowind hots consoles i used to be a 2h stam sorc when it was the best thing ever and man do i miss it. The crack of wrecking etc. The new cp changes i see 2h making a bit of a comeback since its passives buff stam recovery also i have a stock pile of gold vo 2 handers lol

starkerealm

leepalmer95 wrote: »

2h is a must for stam builds in pvp.

You can easily do 95%+ of pve including vet trials if you build right using 2h dps.

2h is fine?

You should take advice when more experienced and knowledgeable players like @Vaoh actually take time to write you a detailed and large paragraph of information and actually answers your question.

I'd actually go so far as to say that 2h can be very good for some PvE stam builds. Especially for StamBlades. But, I've only got three years of experience with a 2h StamBlade, so what do I know?

goldnugget

actually 2h is very strong right now. its very close to the same dps as duel wield, but it also gets a real nice damage shield. ofcourse sorc is the only class that should ever consider stam dps or dps at all really.