Some Data on PVE resource nerfige effect on players

f047ys3v3n

From the perspective of a player, without access to subscription statistics, player log data, and other server side data, it is sometimes hard to tell the impact of changes on the player populous. I read the forums, talked with folks in my raid guild, and the opinion was certainly unanimous that people didn't like the sustain changes but to some extent that could be just echo's in an echo chamber or the universal carping about not liking nerfs that you always expect. I was interested therefore to see the actual effect of the changes on scores and runs. I was surprised.

vMA weekly data as a proxy for player performance and engagement
I expected that there would be some drop in vMA weekly scores. Some would be expected even with no major resource nerfs because new content can distract players from their normal activities. Of course, the lure of an open leaderboard after reset and a new trophy at least partially offsets this. Also, vMA runs do not require a group, take relatively little time to do, and few players have all the gear that they need making the 2for1 of weekly runs a regular incentive responded to by many of the same players every week. vMA weekly data therefore seems to me to be the best peice of data about player responses too, and performance under, the new mess of a resource management system. The data completely floored me. It was a bloodbath. 3 of the 4 original classes did not even fill the weekly board on the NA server. NB had only 80, Templar 57, and DK 54 completes. Sorc had all 100 slots filled but dropped about 72k in the cut off score. For reference, I think the last time that the weekly board did not fill was somewhere around a year and a half ago. There have been many events and new content updates since than that did not have any such effects on players doing vMA.

Greater divergence in player performance
While I was genuinely surprised with the magnitude of the effect the changes had on endgame players ability and willingness to do content I was not at all surprised at the magnitude of the divergence in player performance created by the specific nature of the changes. I expected they would have little effect on the top dogs and crush many lesser players and this was certainly the case. In the example of NB's, which I play the most in vMA, the top player lost only 3k from his vMA score whereas, at the bottom of the leaderboard, players who had been at 522k last week apparently rage quit there runs altogether this week. I went from 540k to 480k despite switching some morphs to ones better for vMA (refreshing path and swallow soul) and mainlining expensive pots to the tune of 10k or so. Not only do I think that such massive, systemic resource changes will take much longer for a so-so endgame player to acclimate to but also I think that these changes also complicated the timings of combat making for a magnification of small differences in player performance. In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much. This is counter to the stated goals of ZOS developers but was what I, and others, expected, and explained, in length, on the PTS forum.

Specific problems and thoughts from vMA and other trials
In vMA, most pulls, my strategy was to leave one add clean each pull and full heavy him down. This was much more effective than trying to heavy with several things up. The reason for this is that a full heavy takes a long time and vMA was not designed to have you sit there holding your *** half the time. There are lots of enemy stuns, things that must be blocked, and things you roll dodge. Because only a full heavy returns resources, if any of these things happen, you have to bail, get no resources, and have to try again. This is not really workable. Instead, you just have to contrive these little one add situations where you are unlikely to have your *** holding interrupted. Similarly, it is advisable, on boss fights, to use phases where the boss is incapacitated or little is happening, to hold your ***. Sure, this will feel counter intuitive as you are used to pushing the boss hard when your rotation is unimpeded but believe me, it is best to let the fight take longer, DOT up the boss, and hold left key a while. If you don't believe me try putting it to the boss of arena 7 during that first scream and see how well you do in the time between screams when you run out of juice. As for that final boss fight, good luck with that one, there aren't very nice places to stand there slowly channeling heavies so good luck. You will also likely have some trouble managing stam as odd as that sounds. Also, get ready to drop serious dough on pots. You just can't do anything without them.

In trials that are not vMA there are often stack phases where there is both a lot more support to resources and less stuff to interrupt you *** holding. The biggest problem in these is that when players are rezed after death they are just useless for a while as it will take a long time to get back up to a state of resource management. Well, that is the biggest problem if you are not a healer or tank. Those deaths I had were because a very good tank lost agro do to not having the resources to taunt because those axes in vAA were draining her. Suffice it to say, there seem to be a lot of times when healers can't heal and tanks can't tank.

As for situations with drain resource mechanics like RoM and CoS. Well, I can't play these because I unsubbed but I get a cold shudder when I think about them.

Changes that could minimize the pain while keeping the slower combat less troll builds in PVP idea.
I am going to go out on a limb and say that the two driving factors in the changes were to make troll builds in PVP more difficult to make and to slow the average casts per second in combat in order to alleviate server lag. I know ZOS will never admit to wanting to make combat slower paced and less responsive but I do think this was an actual goal and that it was probably part of the longstanding attempt to make Cyridiil playable. This is me crediting the leadership at ZOS with not being completely brain-dead, God I hope that is true. Along the lines that ZOS has chosen to go on there are some changes that could return PVE to being both fun and playable but still get to slower combat and less PVP trolling through resource restriction of average casts per second.

1) Partially charged heavies received a big damage nerf, 30% relative to light attacks (full charged heavies actually got a buff but that is another thread) but do not return any resources despite this being given as the reason for that damage nerf. They need to return a substantial fraction of the full charged resource return. This would both allow those full heavies you had to bail on to be worth something and also give the player the option of going with a medium weave to maintain sustain at the cost of dps. The (lower) average casts per second sought should not change but combat will be a lot less miserable.

2) Rezed players in PVE have to come back with far more resources. Seriously, this sucks donkey balls. It's like, thanks for taking time out from you busy boss killing to pick me up guys, don't mind me while I stand here for a while being useless.

3) Tanks need a better resource management. I don't know an easy way to do this, keep PVE and PVP the same, and also maintain you anti troll PVP goal. Simply, tanks have to block a lot of stuff in PVE and your changes made it so they basically can't keep resources on fights like vAA where there are many things hitting them. Maybe make the attacks from those things count as mini-attacks as far as block cost goes.

Anyhow, combat is like pulling your own teeth out with pliers while holding your *** to make yourself feel better. You should probably fix that. I'm certainly not spending any more money until you do. What data I can now see seems pretty clear to me that I am not alone in my sentiment.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Quote "In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much"
Majority of the players base are casual.
Those casual mostly engage in questing and pvp.
Vet dungeon may also be mildly interested to them as the dungeon finder group is now broken for many weeks.
Vmsa is only completed by about maybe a few percent of the players base.
Vet Trail is only for top 1% players.

As long as zos did not make the game too hard for the casual to complete their questing and normal dungeon and some newbie can kill a few players (pvp).
The casual mostly interested in what content can the game offer like beautiful graphic and story line.

idk

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Quote "In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much"
Majority of the players base are casual.
Those casual mostly engage in questing and pvp.
Vet dungeon may also be mildly interested to them as the dungeon finder group is now broken for many weeks.
Vmsa is only completed by about maybe a few percent of the players base.
Vet Trail is only for top 1% players.

As long as zos did not make the game too hard for the casual to complete their questing and normal dungeon and some newbie can kill a few players (pvp).
The casual mostly interested in what content can the game offer like beautiful graphic and story line.

It does not mean the floor dropped. The further from the top a player is the more likely they will need more time to adjust.

OP's post was to long, but the gist of it all is this one week is not a very valid week to compare. Also, comparisons would need to be between the same players. Some have left and others are doing other things this week as OP acknowledges. So looking at the entire leaderboard is not very solid ATM.

Looking at group content, which is really a better indication of effects of the changes since much of what changed affects group sustain, leadboard scores of existing groups are lower. While the scores were expected to be lower, it is probably more an issue of getting comfortable with the changes and it is a distraction until that occurs leading to more deaths and maybe even some discussion of how to maybe do somethings a little differently.

Galwylin

i am definitely casual. Graphics and story are major pulls for me. Today was the first time I was in a wipe on a normal dungeon. Not once but three times. FGII. I didn't know the fight but it was the one where the mob chains one person down and you have to kill the shadows. I learned quickly you have to kill the shadows but was so thankful that I was the one being chained down every time but two times in the hope my stamina would return.

Never plan on being a top tier player but I knew these changes were going to affect me negatively regardless. What they did has no way of not. I am that floor and I didn't mind being a rug. Now I'm the dirt under the house. But i still had a good time today just running some quests in Auridon. But if this is any indication, those daily dungeons runs I do will probably be put on the shelf where they used to be. Tanks need to be able to hold a mob and healers need to be able to teal a group. DPS of course need to damage. If you make that impossible or even just harder, there are going to be less playing the content they're supposedly designing for us.

As for now, I still don't understand their reasoning for this. So, lighting the work load for Cyrodiil makes as much sense as anything. I have just never played anything where making things harder just to be harder is a designing goal. But the game is pretty and has nice stories. But man do they need some changes in the design team. Or maybe changes to the design team.

Ep1kMalware

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Quote "In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much"
Majority of the players base are casual.
Those casual mostly engage in questing and pvp.
Vet dungeon may also be mildly interested to them as the dungeon finder group is now broken for many weeks.
Vmsa is only completed by about maybe a few percent of the players base.
Vet Trail is only for top 1% players.

As long as zos did not make the game too hard for the casual to complete their questing and normal dungeon and some newbie can kill a few players (pvp).
The casual mostly interested in what content can the game offer like beautiful graphic and story line.

It does not mean the floor dropped. The further from the top a player is the more likely they will need more time to adjust.

OP's post was to long, but the gist of it all is this one week is not a very valid week to compare. Also, comparisons would need to be between the same players. Some have left and others are doing other things this week as OP acknowledges. So looking at the entire leaderboard is not very solid ATM.

Looking at group content, which is really a better indication of effects of the changes since much of what changed affects group sustain, leadboard scores of existing groups are lower. While the scores were expected to be lower, it is probably more an issue of getting comfortable with the changes and it is a distraction until that occurs leading to more deaths and maybe even some discussion of how to maybe do somethings a little differently.

The floor dropped dude. With all bis dps gear being extremely easy to farm and not having to worry about resources the only thing stoppibg them from reaching tr top 1%was a little farming amd practice. Now all that has changed amd the amount of work to 'git gud' actually increased, thus the floor dropped.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

I've never completed VMA. I've only tried it twice actually. I spend most of my time in Cyrodiil.

That said, this post makes me love these changes even more than I think I would (which was a lot already). End game content should be hard AF. If only 57 Templars can do VMA on PC than awesome and good for them. Gives other people something to work for. Hard content in end game scenarios is a good thing for the long term.

Also, if this means that normal dungeons go back to requiring a group than all the better. Say what you will about the PVP cheese builds leading to the nerfs but soloing group content in PVE was just as big of a problem.

aLi3nZ

Wow, long post. I actually like the changes now I have got my build set. 2200 magika regen I am a sorc though, everyone says we are op including vma leaderboard

Gandrhulf_Harbard

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much. This is counter to the stated goals of ZOS developers but was what I, and others, expected, and explained, in length, on the PTS forum.

As you say, they were told this would happen, they were told hundreds and hundreds of times; by high-end raiders, theorycrafters and casuals - everyone told them this would happen.

They ignored it.

The thing that gets me though is if damn near everyone on the PTS and Morrowind Beta forums could see this was going to happen, why couldn't ZOS see it?

The ONLY logical answer is they don't have a clue what they are doing, and they have even less of a clue how what they are doing will actually affect things.

All The Best

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much. This is counter to the stated goals of ZOS developers but was what I, and others, expected, and explained, in length, on the PTS forum.

As you say, they were told this would happen, they were told hundreds and hundreds of times; by high-end raiders, theorycrafters and casuals - everyone told them this would happen.

They ignored it.

The thing that gets me though is if damn near everyone on the PTS and Morrowind Beta forums could see this was going to happen, why couldn't ZOS see it?

The ONLY logical answer is they don't have a clue what they are doing, and they have even less of a clue how what they are doing will actually affect things.

All The Best

I think part of the reason ZOS can't balance around the edges is because the weirdest character combinations come from the least knowledgeable place (Khajit Magic Werewolf baby!) while the most powerful gear combos come from the most knowledgeable players.

Everyone else, the majority of the dataset, has some solid knowledge of character synergies with race and class and uses the gear made popular by the theory crafters 3 months after they have already moved on.

So they balance the middle resulting in the stupid getting completely left in the dust, the middle class getting pushed down a peg and the smartest players thriving even more.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I think part of the reason ZOS can't balance around the edges is because the weirdest character combinations come from the least knowledgeable place (Khajit Magic Werewolf baby!) while the most powerful gear combos come from the most knowledgeable players.

Everyone else, the majority of the dataset, has some solid knowledge of character synergies with race and class and uses the gear made popular by the theory crafters 3 months after they have already moved on.

So they balance the middle resulting in the stupid getting completely left in the dust, the middle class getting pushed down a peg and the smartest players thriving even more.

Interesting points, and ones I somewhat agree with.

But this game was always marketed as "play your way".

So if I want to make a Khajit Magicka Werewolf that's just fine.

My main is a Nord Magicka Templar - sure I had to tweak his gear, and his CP to make up a few deficiencies, but I could take those points from areas where the Nord was stonger, so it balanced out.

ZOS need to look at the changes they make in terms of their impact on ALL possible Race/Class/Resource/Gear/Rotation combinations.

Yes, yes, I know - that's a lot of possibilities.

But if you (as a game company) lack the technical ability, the intelligence or the resources to balance all of those possibilities properly then you had no damn business selling those possibilities in the first place.

All The Best

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I think part of the reason ZOS can't balance around the edges is because the weirdest character combinations come from the least knowledgeable place (Khajit Magic Werewolf baby!) while the most powerful gear combos come from the most knowledgeable players.

Everyone else, the majority of the dataset, has some solid knowledge of character synergies with race and class and uses the gear made popular by the theory crafters 3 months after they have already moved on.

So they balance the middle resulting in the stupid getting completely left in the dust, the middle class getting pushed down a peg and the smartest players thriving even more.

Interesting points, and ones I somewhat agree with.

But this game was always marketed as "play your way".

So if I want to make a Khajit Magicka Werewolf that's just fine.

My main is a Nord Magicka Templar - sure I had to tweak his gear, and his CP to make up a few deficiencies, but I could take those points from areas where the Nord was stonger, so it balanced out.

ZOS need to look at the changes they make in terms of their impact on ALL possible Race/Class/Resource/Gear/Rotation combinations.

Yes, yes, I know - that's a lot of possibilities.

But if you (as a game company) lack the technical ability, the intelligence or the resources to balance all of those possibilities properly then you had no damn business selling those possibilities in the first place.

All The Best

Good points. Let's be honest ... the only thing that most corporations have that average people do not are billions of dollars. Just because someone is in a position of power doesn't mean that they are the 100% best possible person for the job. They might just be the person who interviewed with the right person at the right time on the right day.

Then again, how can a corporation know which superfans are actually the most intelligent? The best theory crafter in the world might just be the worst self promoter.

Anyway, lots of good points in here in general.

Tommy_The_Gun

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Quote "In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much"

Can't agree more... The top "pro" players who know game mechanics at a level that probably even game developers don't - already found a way... some gear swapped, some other enchantment used differently, some CP spent slight different.. and there you go... no problem...

The problem start when you are an "average joe" type of player... Doing quests, some doungens / delves from time to time and you have only a very basic knowledge of how game mechanics work... Those players will probably "feel" those changes the most.... A complete reversal of what ZOS intended to do...

MaxwellC

@THEDKEXPERIENCE
Mate end game content should be hard but until they introduce some sort of system that allows me to cut the RNG B.S when it comes to farming specific weapons with traits then yeah hell no these changes are terrible.
I'm sure it'll take a bit of time to adjust but vMSA is already a chore, it isn't fun and after running it over 100 times as a DK, it just drains you because after you best the arena you have to deal with the final boss and that boss is called RNGesus.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Wow, long post. I actually like the changes now I have got my build set. 2200 magika regen I am a sorc though, everyone says we are op including vma leaderboard

If you need that much regen on a sorc, you are sorcing wrong, look into overload and dark conversion.

Huyen

Another topic for the 1% of the total playerbase. Well done!

Bobby_V_Rockit

I dont think trials are for the top 1%, I see more players sporting vet trial titles than not during my game time. Hell, I barely push 21k DPS on my main as a Stam Sorc and I'm a Shehai Shatterer! Give people time to acclimate and finish the new PVE content, then make assumptions about averaged player skill

X3ina

The change was needed, and supported by any healthy logic. Without that kind of changes we would face dds with 150k dps in about september or so. People just have to adjust give them some time.

And btw chapter was just another fotm changing patch if you look closer. Top-tier groups lost about 50-70k group dps only (7 days post patch), some are still grinding theorycrafting.

For me it just seems like its time for nbs and templars to rule the crown

HatchetHaro

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I've never completed VMA. I've only tried it twice actually. I spend most of my time in Cyrodiil.

That said, this post makes me love these changes even more than I think I would (which was a lot already). End game content should be hard AF. If only 57 Templars can do VMA on PC than awesome and good for them. Gives other people something to work for. Hard content in end game scenarios is a good thing for the long term.

Also, if this means that normal dungeons go back to requiring a group than all the better. Say what you will about the PVP cheese builds leading to the nerfs but soloing group content in PVE was just as big of a problem.

That's just stupid thinking. There is absolutely no benefit to locking people out of content they wish to complete.

See, here's the thing: I agree that vMA should be hard, but it already was. It's only through months of improvement and learning and theorycrafting that makes those players good enough to complete it and get into the leaderboards.

When it comes to challenge, there is a difference between the content being challenging yet fun and rewarding, and the content being so difficult it becomes painful and frustrating.

If there's anything that doesn't need to be harder, it would be vMA. vMA is already straddling the line between fun and frustrating; Morrowind only pushed it straight into painful territory.

Fact of the matter is that the people claiming that things are too easy aren't aware that there are actually different levels of content for different levels of skill. Normal dungeons, for instance, are designed to be tackled by a group of low-lvls who are still learning the game and have only the most basic grasp on mechanics and roles. If one is able to deal 40k dps while being able to sustain health and resources, that person should be more than capable of soloing normal dungeons. In this case, if people are claiming that the content they are completing is "too easy", move up the ladder! Don't cut off the rung you're on; move on to the next level of content. Do veteran dungeons, trials, vMA, etc. Strive to improve yourself, not bring down the others. If you have goals for your performance in-game, such as attaining high leaderboard scores, then there would be no such thing as "easymode".

I find it rather interesting that the people who applaud these changes are often the ones who are unable to do veteran content themselves. I find the irony of it funny, that the people who are the most unqualified on commenting on ramping up the difficulty of veteran content are the ones liking the nerfs and insulting the amount of effort the actual veterans have put into that content.

X3ina wrote: »

The change was needed, and supported by any healthy logic. Without that kind of changes we would face dds with 150k dps in about september or so. People just have to adjust give them some time.

And btw chapter was just another fotm changing patch if you look closer. Top-tier groups lost about 50-70k group dps only (7 days post patch), some are still grinding theorycrafting.

For me it just seems like its time for nbs and templars to rule the crown

Except these changes only served to push magsorcs further into the meta and completely shoved down all other classes, including stamina. NBs and Templars are far from ruling the crown.

50k group dps is actually a lot to lose. Here's some math: they were originally pulling ~400k group dps in the most favorable situations; 50k is actually 12.5% of that dps, and let's be real, when it comes to ESO, 12.5% is a lot.

Here's healthy logic: dds won't reach 150k dps solo. The highest most veterans have gotten is ~40k solo on a target skeleton. That's the way it was in Homestead, and it's a fairly healthy way, with no foreseeable buffs in the future. Your idea of power creep is greatly exaggerated. Power creep is far from being a problem this day; if people are improving, then it's entirely logical to say that the damage would improve with it. It's what it was, it's what it should be. Even if there is power creep, the most people would see would only be a 10% increase in damage. When it comes time to nerf, nerf it then, not before it even started to be a problem.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

HatchetHaro wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I've never completed VMA. I've only tried it twice actually. I spend most of my time in Cyrodiil.

That said, this post makes me love these changes even more than I think I would (which was a lot already). End game content should be hard AF. If only 57 Templars can do VMA on PC than awesome and good for them. Gives other people something to work for. Hard content in end game scenarios is a good thing for the long term.

Also, if this means that normal dungeons go back to requiring a group than all the better. Say what you will about the PVP cheese builds leading to the nerfs but soloing group content in PVE was just as big of a problem.

That's just stupid thinking. There is absolutely no benefit to locking people out of content they wish to complete.

See, here's the thing: I agree that vMA should be hard, but it already was. It's only through months of improvement and learning and theorycrafting that makes those players good enough to complete it and get into the leaderboards.

When it comes to challenge, there is a difference between the content being challenging yet fun and rewarding, and the content being so difficult it becomes painful and frustrating.

If there's anything that doesn't need to be harder, it would be vMA. vMA is already straddling the line between fun and frustrating; Morrowind only pushed it straight into painful territory.

Fact of the matter is that the people claiming that things are too easy aren't aware that there are actually different levels of content for different levels of skill. Normal dungeons, for instance, are designed to be tackled by a group of low-lvls who are still learning the game and have only the most basic grasp on mechanics and roles. If one is able to deal 40k dps while being able to sustain health and resources, that person should be more than capable of soloing normal dungeons. In this case, if people are claiming that the content they are completing is "too easy", move up the ladder! Don't cut off the rung you're on; move on to the next level of content. Do veteran dungeons, trials, vMA, etc. Strive to improve yourself, not bring down the others. If you have goals for your performance in-game, such as attaining high leaderboard scores, then there would be no such thing as "easymode".

I find it rather interesting that the people who applaud these changes are often the ones who are unable to do veteran content themselves. I find the irony of it funny, that the people who are the most unqualified on commenting on ramping up the difficulty of veteran content are the ones liking the nerfs and insulting the amount of effort the actual veterans have put into that content.

X3ina wrote: »

The change was needed, and supported by any healthy logic. Without that kind of changes we would face dds with 150k dps in about september or so. People just have to adjust give them some time.

And btw chapter was just another fotm changing patch if you look closer. Top-tier groups lost about 50-70k group dps only (7 days post patch), some are still grinding theorycrafting.

For me it just seems like its time for nbs and templars to rule the crown

Except these changes only served to push magsorcs further into the meta and completely shoved down all other classes, including stamina. NBs and Templars are far from ruling the crown.

50k group dps is actually a lot to lose. Here's some math: they were originally pulling ~400k group dps in the most favorable situations; 50k is actually 12.5% of that dps, and let's be real, when it comes to ESO, 12.5% is a lot.

Here's healthy logic: dds won't reach 150k dps solo. The highest most veterans have gotten is ~40k solo on a target skeleton. That's the way it was in Homestead, and it's a fairly healthy way, with no foreseeable buffs in the future. Your idea of power creep is greatly exaggerated. Power creep is far from being a problem this day; if people are improving, then it's entirely logical to say that the damage would improve with it. It's what it was, it's what it should be. Even if there is power creep, the most people would see would only be a 10% increase in damage. When it comes time to nerf, nerf it then, not before it even started to be a problem.

You completely missed the point and argued against yourself with the "no one should be locked out of content" argument. The hardest content should be insanely hard and only doable be a very small number of people. If people want to experience content it should be on normal.

Also, just because someone hasn't done something doesn't mean they are incapable of doing it. I got to round 5 on VMA months ago on a PVP build and never bothered to complete it. If I really felt like spending a day learning the mechanics it's not impossible. I solo in Cyrodiil every day. I think I can figure out when to dodge roll out of red.

HatchetHaro

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I've never completed VMA. I've only tried it twice actually. I spend most of my time in Cyrodiil.

That said, this post makes me love these changes even more than I think I would (which was a lot already). End game content should be hard AF. If only 57 Templars can do VMA on PC than awesome and good for them. Gives other people something to work for. Hard content in end game scenarios is a good thing for the long term.

Also, if this means that normal dungeons go back to requiring a group than all the better. Say what you will about the PVP cheese builds leading to the nerfs but soloing group content in PVE was just as big of a problem.

That's just stupid thinking. There is absolutely no benefit to locking people out of content they wish to complete.

See, here's the thing: I agree that vMA should be hard, but it already was. It's only through months of improvement and learning and theorycrafting that makes those players good enough to complete it and get into the leaderboards.

When it comes to challenge, there is a difference between the content being challenging yet fun and rewarding, and the content being so difficult it becomes painful and frustrating.

If there's anything that doesn't need to be harder, it would be vMA. vMA is already straddling the line between fun and frustrating; Morrowind only pushed it straight into painful territory.

Fact of the matter is that the people claiming that things are too easy aren't aware that there are actually different levels of content for different levels of skill. Normal dungeons, for instance, are designed to be tackled by a group of low-lvls who are still learning the game and have only the most basic grasp on mechanics and roles. If one is able to deal 40k dps while being able to sustain health and resources, that person should be more than capable of soloing normal dungeons. In this case, if people are claiming that the content they are completing is "too easy", move up the ladder! Don't cut off the rung you're on; move on to the next level of content. Do veteran dungeons, trials, vMA, etc. Strive to improve yourself, not bring down the others. If you have goals for your performance in-game, such as attaining high leaderboard scores, then there would be no such thing as "easymode".

I find it rather interesting that the people who applaud these changes are often the ones who are unable to do veteran content themselves. I find the irony of it funny, that the people who are the most unqualified on commenting on ramping up the difficulty of veteran content are the ones liking the nerfs and insulting the amount of effort the actual veterans have put into that content.

X3ina wrote: »

The change was needed, and supported by any healthy logic. Without that kind of changes we would face dds with 150k dps in about september or so. People just have to adjust give them some time.

And btw chapter was just another fotm changing patch if you look closer. Top-tier groups lost about 50-70k group dps only (7 days post patch), some are still grinding theorycrafting.

For me it just seems like its time for nbs and templars to rule the crown

Except these changes only served to push magsorcs further into the meta and completely shoved down all other classes, including stamina. NBs and Templars are far from ruling the crown.

50k group dps is actually a lot to lose. Here's some math: they were originally pulling ~400k group dps in the most favorable situations; 50k is actually 12.5% of that dps, and let's be real, when it comes to ESO, 12.5% is a lot.

Here's healthy logic: dds won't reach 150k dps solo. The highest most veterans have gotten is ~40k solo on a target skeleton. That's the way it was in Homestead, and it's a fairly healthy way, with no foreseeable buffs in the future. Your idea of power creep is greatly exaggerated. Power creep is far from being a problem this day; if people are improving, then it's entirely logical to say that the damage would improve with it. It's what it was, it's what it should be. Even if there is power creep, the most people would see would only be a 10% increase in damage. When it comes time to nerf, nerf it then, not before it even started to be a problem.

You completely missed the point and argued against yourself with the "no one should be locked out of content" argument. The hardest content should be insanely hard and only doable be a very small number of people. If people want to experience content it should be on normal.

Also, just because someone hasn't done something doesn't mean they are incapable of doing it. I got to round 5 on VMA months ago on a PVP build and never bothered to complete it. If I really felt like spending a day learning the mechanics it's not impossible. I solo in Cyrodiil every day. I think I can figure out when to dodge roll out of red.

I never argued against myself; it seems that you, sir, have completely missed the point.

The thing is that the hardest content is already insanely hard and is only doable by a very small number of people. It's called vMoL hardmode.

Again, if one wants more challenge in vMA, it is a simple matter of going for a leaderboard score and the Flawless Conquerer title.

Oh, and, welcome to vMA; round 5 is where it actually gets hard. I suggest you actually complete it before asking for nerfs; you'll see that it is so much more than dodge-rolling reds. You're much more incapable than you think you are.

ofSunhold

Interesting. Thanks for writing it up and posting it, OP.

Tangent: Think what you like about people who create troll builds in PvP, they aren't stupid. As long as there are powerful sets - and as long as all classes are encouraged and even required to focus so hard on what we wear - they will keep finding ways to build for high damage and/or functional immortality. It's what they enjoy doing, and they're good at it.

Some of the nerfs in this patch (eg block nerf) that hit PvE hard will merely inconvenience those guys, because they don't actually give a *** about block, it was just what worked the best this time around for their purposes. There will always be something.

Hitting us all to try to stop them is a bad tactic. I guess the devs just don't know what else to do about it.

Draqone

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Interesting points, and ones I somewhat agree with.

But this game was always marketed as "play your way".

@Gandrhulf_Harbard Play your way means that you have an option to make a magicka werewolf khajiit who is going to wear a pink towel and fight with a broom. And in ESO you can make such a character.

The developers never promised every single playstyle will be viable. It's logical that not every single character will be able to beat the hardest content. You can't make an enjoyable game if you have to balance around the lowest denominator because someone so wishes.

That said the game does a horrible job at explaining the combat system to new players. The confusion around the lack of cooldowns and the mechanical gap between the elite and an average player is colossal, even if they have the same gear.

I see so many players who think: "I have Julianos and Moondancer and do 15k DPS. And I saw a video of Alcast doing 35k DPS with Netch and Moondancer! This means Netch must be so much better!" when in reality they don't even know why their DPS is so low because the game never explained any mechanics.

JinMori

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

In other words, the floor dropped and the ceiling didn't move much. This is counter to the stated goals of ZOS developers but was what I, and others, expected, and explained, in length, on the PTS forum.

As you say, they were told this would happen, they were told hundreds and hundreds of times; by high-end raiders, theorycrafters and casuals - everyone told them this would happen.

They ignored it.

The thing that gets me though is if damn near everyone on the PTS and Morrowind Beta forums could see this was going to happen, why couldn't ZOS see it?

The ONLY logical answer is they don't have a clue what they are doing, and they have even less of a clue how what they are doing will actually affect things.

All The Best

I think part of the reason ZOS can't balance around the edges is because the weirdest character combinations come from the least knowledgeable place (Khajit Magic Werewolf baby!) while the most powerful gear combos come from the most knowledgeable players.

Everyone else, the majority of the dataset, has some solid knowledge of character synergies with race and class and uses the gear made popular by the theory crafters 3 months after they have already moved on.

So they balance the middle resulting in the stupid getting completely left in the dust, the middle class getting pushed down a peg and the smartest players thriving even more.

I don't usually agree with you, but this time i do.

Some people run around with absolutely ridiculous builds, and expect to do much in pvp or pve.

But i also have to say that i deeply disagree with your statements on the current patch changes. You should NOT nerf the players to make content harder, what you should do as a company is make HARDER content without taking away the power from the player.

Vma, trials were already very difficult, vet dung were decently difficult for most players, what they should have done is create a new mode for hardcore players, not take away the power from everyone and expect that everybody will like it.

This new heavy attack meta S U C K S. End of story, one of the strong point of eso was fast phased combat, this completely defeats the purpose.

I would have accepted the resource management cp changes, but all of this at once is too much.

At this point it's been almost 2 months since i last played (on live), i hope that some day i will return, because i like this game, but not like this.

wolfie1.0.

i consider myself Semi casual as far as PVE content goes. As in I am trying to move up to being able to make those Vet runs as well as gear up. The problem is that the recent changes have made it exponentially harder to make that change.

VMA is harder than ever, but there is gear there that is needed for certain builds. Normal trials have gear you need too but wipes are occurring more frequently now.

I will be able to eventually adapt because I know how to do so and i have good guild support.

The Problem i think is that casuals who start now won't be able to make the same adjustments to End game content and ultimately what we will get is Elitism. They may have raised the floor and lowered the ceiling, but IMO all this did was create rooms with locked doors.

Pyr0xyrecuprotite

I don't think the OP is wrong, but it's a bit early yet to get real data from vMA weekly scoreboards. Top end players will have had to spend some time trying out their builds again, and adjusting gear (which might take some grinding), even if they weren't also trying to clear the new Morrowind content and/or level up a new Warden character, just to try it out. Same goes for any other high-end casuals, who might occasionally want to try a run at vMA, except that it will take them even longer to get ready than the top players.

That said, yes, I think the effect of the changes in the past two major updates has been to a) put the super hard content further out of reach of casual players; while b) making the regular PvE solo and normal content super easy so that anyone new can complete it fairly easily.

X3ina

@HatchetHaro

How can u be sure that its sorc era again if its only 7 days post update ? And if you're pointing to the "world first" hodors vhof clear, then aquila completed it with more balanced group and higher score.

And about power creep: thiefs guild patch vmol ~25k average dps; dark brotherhood ~ 40k; homestead ~50k+ average with tops hitting 60k+ ... so, the power creep is real. And its increasing about 15k per update (with raid buffs in mixed type fights of course).

To be clear, i think that top-tier dps will still increase this update by about 15-20%. And btw as alcast mentioned hodor practiced mostly on sorcs (because in the last pts patch notes they were still op, and then got ninja nerfs when morrowind hit live) and only because of that, they had such group composition + its hodor man xD if you look in youtube they had video with 10 dk/2 templar group. So nothing to worry about.

Avnr

Very Interesting post

cabbageub17_ESO

Yeah I don't really enjoy being 1 of 4 300+ Champions taking 5 minutes to kill an open world boss b/c none of us could sustain adequately.

Phinix1

Galwylin wrote: »

DPS of course need to damage. If you make that impossible or even just harder, there are going to be less playing the content they're supposedly designing for us.

Yep, I kinda think ZOS went nuts with these changes, assuming that everyone would just "adapt and overcome." The thing they fail to comprehend is that people play games to have FUN. People don't want to face some Sisyphean challenge just to engage in their entertainment media.

The resource changes are terrible and should be reversed. If ZOS is too lazy to find a way to balance PVP sustain without removing entire CP and whacking resource management across the board then maybe they should contract out game balance to someone who can.

firedrgn

Nerfs will hurt the least skilled players the most. No way to nerff us up. The most skilled players will be able to adapt faster.
I think 1vx or 1v2 in PvP will be a dream for skilled players as the nerffs will show least skilled players weakness more.

It will make grouping a must.

G0ku

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I got to round 5 on VMA months ago

means you got no clue what you´re talking about, your oppinion on vMSA irrelavant in consequence of that