Magicka Warden PvE DPS: How's it looking for you, and can we make it work in its current state?

stileanima

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Magicka Warden as it currently stands in end-game PvE as a DPS role. The majority of posts on the matter share the opinion that it's lackluster overall, and likely parses the worst out of all other setups and classes. At the same time, it's still very early since most players have had access to it (some still don't), so I would imagine most of us, myself included, have not had the opportunity to test it utilizing its maximum potential as we are still leveling important skill lines such as Undaunted and Mage's Guild. We've also not had time enough yet to discover which sets are best, the Champion Point setup that is most optimal, or even which skills to have on which bars to produce the best results.

Off the top of my head, here's my personal list of pros and cons to the Magicka Warden DD:

Pros

• Strong and cheap spammable (Screaming Cliff Racer)
• Strong AOE skill that also hits like a truck in single-target (Deep Fissure)
• Two strong class DoTs (Winter's Revenge, Fetcher Infection)
• Fluid rotation that is easy to upkeep in situations involving a lot of self awareness, movement, etc. (at least the one I'm experimenting with at the moment)
• Cheap / strong single-target ultimate (Eternal Guardian)
• Resource management is not an issue

Cons

• Lacks any kind of group synergy (not including the one skill from the Green Balance line)
• Offensive passives are lackluster
• Its strongest offensive ultimate is primarily single-target, and must be double-barred to remain active (Eternal Guardian)
• Its strongest AOE ultimate does roughly half as much damage as the Destruction Staff ultimate
• The Piercing Cold passive is applicable to and viable with only class skills (i.e. Who's going to be using a frost staff as a DD in any trial?)
• Its class passives lack group synergy in a way that boosts overall group damage. For example: Dragonknights have Engulfing Flames, causing affected enemies to take extra damage from all flame attacks; Sorcerers have the Exploitation passive, boosting the Spell Critical of nearby allies; Templars have the Illuminate passive, granting Minor Sorcery to nearby allies; Nightblades have the Hemorrhage passive, granting Minor Savagery to nearby allies, and also possess off-healing ability while simultaneously dealing damage
• Its strongest class DoT (Winter's Revenge) currently appears to be bugged in that it is not affected by one of our crit modifiers; or perhaps I am consistently experiencing horrible RNG
• That I have so far found, the way to achieve the highest single-target damage output is by using the Eternal Guardian ultimate, which is not as effective in a good portion of trial scenarios as an AOE ultimate would be

I'm sure there are loads more of both the positive and the negative that I'm missing, or perhaps some of my cons that others would consider pros and vice versa, and would love to hear others' thoughts as well.


Below are some parses I've completed with my Magicka Warden on both the 3 million and 6 million HP dummies. Something to note is that though the Magicka drain appears to be much higher than the regen, implying that this build would not be able to sustain, this is because I purposely was not as careful with managing resources near the end of the parse as I knew the skeleton would die.

3 Million HP Skeleton

Parse 1, 37.3k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

Parse 2, 37.3k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

Parse 3, 34.3k, No Bear (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

Parse 4, 37.9k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

Parse 5, 38k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

6 Million HP Skeleton

Parse 1, 32.7k (Gear: Necropotence, Moondancer)

Parse 2, 34.8k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer)

Parse 3, 36.3k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

Parse 4, 36.5k (Gear: Julianos, Moondancer, 1 piece Molag Kena)

So, 35k+ is definitely possible on Magicka Warden! Can it be done without using Eternal Guardian? At the moment I'm not sure. From another thread:

In my screenshots above, I had relatively high uptimes of the Shadow Blessing (100% in one of them, and when is that ever going to realistically happen in any trial scenario?), could reliably pop all synergies when needed, and of course, was standing at a stationary target. So even though my overall DPS would be increased in trials by raid buffs, and even though I can maybe squeeze 1-2k more out of this class beating on a skeleton with a bit more practice (and perhaps luck), yeah... pretty far behind what you would get out of any other class. Not to mention those tests were done using the Eternal Guardian ultimate, which would be the inferior ultimate choice in a good amount of situations (i.e., anything with more than one or two targets). Considering the Eternal Guardian has accounted for an astonishing 17-18% of my total DPS for most parses, removing it would only serve to hurt the class's performance in spite of replacing it with the Destro Ult or Meteor.

I am currently experimenting with the following skill load out:



Below is a quick video of my rotation, for those interested (skip to 04:07 for the good stuff) (now outdated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkCMoUNhcJQ

Another video of a different parse with some updates to my gear and rotation (36k) (now outdated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX4w91RKjM

To wrap up, again, I'm curious how other players are faring with their Magicka Warden DDs. With all of the above in mind, I can't help but ask myself, "Why would I bring a Magicka Warden to a trial when I could bring something better?", and am hoping there's a missing piece that I'm just not seeing yet that truly makes this class shine.

PS: Thanks to @MrClyde for helping me test all of this stuff. He's the brains behind the outfit. I'm merely the keyboard warrior.

Final update: Testing for now is over, so I shall leave this thread with my build video. Thanks, everyone, for your input.

https://youtu.be/0pAxCn7UPw8

smoothscape

Very nice post, thanks for testing.

Could you tell me which sets you were using and what rotation?
Thanks

Draqone

You also had synergies to proc your Moondancer since I see that in the buffs. How is the set faring in trial scenarios, if you had the ability to test it? Obviously on a solo skeleton it will not shine so it's not getting much traction on Youtubes but I would love to see the buff uptimes for trials. Should be around 100%, right?

Anhedonie

Winter's Revenge has lower tooltip than wall of elements. What do you mean by strong? Have you seen liquid lightning skill?
And deep fissure often doesn't appear on screen, so I can't really tell whether it hits the target or not.
My two cents. Ah, I can't make it past 26k dps selfbuffed, btw.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

My Warden is only at level 42, but I am starting to get a feel for it. My thought is that it will need some pretty serious buffs to compete for a spot in a leader board group. The flipside is that I dont think the rotation is really all the difficult and they are fairly survivable. Might become a favorite for pugs. I was able to solo skyreach at level 6, so they can definitely stay alive and play at range.

I think Wardens will sought after for utility (off tank or second healer), but without some damage buffs, they will be lackluster as DPS. Most people have them parsing in the mid to high 20s. Considering most other builds are parsing in the high 30's low 40s, they have some work to do.

From a practical standpoint, they have a lot of buffs to deal with. Keeping up the netch (for Necro proc and regen, dont care about spell damage) and Warden Wings (for the damage buff) make the rotation more awkward and dont give you the benefits of comparable skills like a Familiar or Mericless.

Aside from that, what you seem to be left with is a pretty simple rotation of 3 back bar dots, and a front bar rotation of Deep fissurre, Cliff racer x2, and repeat 2-3 times. It feels like a simplified old school sorc rotation. Simple, but not very high on the damage scale.

stileanima

smoothscape wrote: »

Could you tell me which sets you were using and what rotation?
Thanks

For the parse in my screenshot above, I used 5x Julianos, 5x Moondancer (4 armor pieces and 1x Sharpened Fire Staff), 1x Molag Kena, and 1x Sharpened Maelstrom Lightning Staff.

Contrary to what would seem to be best in slot, I actually parsed worse with Necropotence in all attempts. Necropotence was actually the very first set I equipped to test stuff with; I paired it with 2x Ilambris, Grothdarr, and even Nerien'eth. I also tried to use it with 3x Moondancer jewelry and 2x Maelstrom Staves, and additionally tried it without any monster helm at all to utilize 5x Moondancer, as well as with 1x monster set.

Draqone wrote: »

You also had synergies to proc your Moondancer since I see that in the buffs. How is the set faring in trial scenarios, if you had the ability to test it? Obviously on a solo skeleton it will not shine so it's not getting much traction on Youtubes but I would love to see the buff uptimes for trials. Should be around 100%, right?

Unfortunately I've not had a lot of opportunity to test this build in any trial aside from Halls of Fabrication. The group I am running with is still trying to find their bearings there, myself included, so I cannot say for sure at the current time. The one thing I can be certain about is that sustain was not an issue for me, at least up to the second boss, which was our stopping point.

Anhedonie wrote: »

Winter's Revenge has lower tooltip than wall of elements. What do you mean by strong? Have you seen liquid lightning skill?

I suppose by "strong" I mean it does more damage than all of my other DoTs, though this may be because my uptime of Elemental Blockade is pretty low with the rotation I am using. Currently I've got Winter's Revenge, Fetcher Infection and Blockade on the back bar, though when I finish spammables on the front and swap to the back to reapply everything, Blockade always falls off for one or two seconds, while Winter's Revenge and Fetcher Infection have around 100% uptime. I want to experiment a bit more with the placement of Blockade to see if I can get the uptime to be any higher without having to have a convoluted rotation overall.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

From a practical standpoint, they have a lot of buffs to deal with. Keeping up the netch (for Necro proc and regen, dont care about spell damage) and Warden Wings (for the damage buff) make the rotation more awkward and dont give you the benefits of comparable skills like a Familiar or Mericless.

Again, I don't think Necropotence is best in slot for the magicka Warden, at least in the tests I've run. Julianos has won out over it every time for me, with the overall boost in spell damage being more beneficial than a large mana pool. I also would not advocate running Falcon's Swiftness as you'll be getting the same buff from Combat Prayer anyway, and even if not, in the tests I have run, using it in place of a Cliff Racer or a Deep Fissure, for example, is a DPS loss.

I actually took the Blue Betty off my bar in my group's Halls of Fabrication attempt yesterday, on the second boss, and replaced it with Lotus Blossom for the healing and mana return. This was because I was on upstairs duty and I found the heals to be more beneficial for not only me, but the three others upstairs with me as well. Sustain without the Betty was fine. Both with and without, I still find that I have to heavy attack, but I'm not sure if it can really be avoided.

Zardayne

I'd like to see the bear for magica only require a single ultimate slot to remain active at all times that way it helps with our damage and still enables us to run a healing or other ultimate.

The next change I'd like to see is have one one of the morphs of swarm instantly cast as AOE and not wait an eternally long 10 seconds before it grows. What's up with all of the waiting abilities..Maybe increase the damage and lowers the time it runs as well?

How's artic blast looking for the damage morph? From what I've heard it's not great. That might be another worthless spell that needs it's damage looked at.

Perhaps have a morph version of living vines stay on the caster and also lash out for magica damage. That would give us a bit more of the nature feel the warden's going for.

stileanima

Zardayne wrote: »

The next change I'd like to see is have one one of the morphs of swarm instantly cast as AOE and not wait an eternally long 10 seconds before it grows. What's up with all of the waiting abilities..Maybe increase the damage and lowers the time it runs as well?

It's funny that you mention the waiting as I was playing around with the Fetcher Infection morph of this skill last night with one of my friends. We found that, even though Fetcher Infection is an instant cast ability, it has a travel time (similar to the Nightblade's "Cripple"). So, the closer you stand to your target, the sooner it will start dealing damage. So far, I've actually found it to be more beneficial in the rotation I'm using to stand farther away, as it means Fetcher Infection lines up better with Winter's Revenge, making its uptime higher overall.

Just another instance where "x second duration" doesn't actually mean "x second duration".

Zardayne wrote: »

How's artic blast looking for the damage morph? From what I've heard it's not great. That might be another worthless spell that needs it's damage looked at.

I haven't actually tested this skill, but just from reading the tooltip, I don't think it would be worth it at all to run. The DoT looks pretty weak, plus, it is limited to an 8 meter radius. At the present time I have found that standing farther away than 8 meters from your target is better overall for DPS output.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

stileanima wrote: »

smoothscape wrote: »

Could you tell me which sets you were using and what rotation?
Thanks

For the parse in my screenshot above, I used 5x Julianos, 5x Moondancer (4 armor pieces and 1x Sharpened Fire Staff), 1x Molag Kena, and 1x Sharpened Maelstrom Lightning Staff.

Contrary to what would seem to be best in slot, I actually parsed worse with Necropotence in all attempts. Necropotence was actually the very first set I equipped to test stuff with; I paired it with 2x Ilambris, Grothdarr, and even Nerien'eth. I also tried to use it with 3x Moondancer jewelry and 2x Maelstrom Staves, and additionally tried it without any monster helm at all to utilize 5x Moondancer, as well as with 1x monster set. It would seem that Warden skills scale better as a whole with spell damage than with max Magicka, at least in the tests I have run.

Draqone wrote: »

You also had synergies to proc your Moondancer since I see that in the buffs. How is the set faring in trial scenarios, if you had the ability to test it? Obviously on a solo skeleton it will not shine so it's not getting much traction on Youtubes but I would love to see the buff uptimes for trials. Should be around 100%, right?

Unfortunately I've not had a lot of opportunity to test this build in any trial aside from Halls of Fabrication. The group I am running with is still trying to find their bearings there, myself included, so I cannot say for sure at the current time. The one thing I can be certain about is that sustain was not an issue for me, at least up to the second boss, which was our stopping point.

Anhedonie wrote: »

Winter's Revenge has lower tooltip than wall of elements. What do you mean by strong? Have you seen liquid lightning skill?

I suppose by "strong" I mean it does more damage than all of my other DoTs, though this may be because my uptime of Elemental Blockade is pretty low with the rotation I am using. Currently I've got Winter's Revenge, Fetcher Infection and Blockade on the back bar, though when I finish spammables on the front and swap to the back to reapply everything, Blockade always falls off for one or two seconds, while Winter's Revenge and Fetcher Infection have around 100% uptime. I want to experiment a bit more with the placement of Blockade to see if I can get the uptime to be any higher without having to have a convoluted rotation overall.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

From a practical standpoint, they have a lot of buffs to deal with. Keeping up the netch (for Necro proc and regen, dont care about spell damage) and Warden Wings (for the damage buff) make the rotation more awkward and dont give you the benefits of comparable skills like a Familiar or Mericless.

Again, I don't think Necropotence is best in slot for the magicka Warden, at least in the tests I've run. Julianos has won out over it every time for me, with the overall boost in spell damage being more beneficial than a large mana pool. I also would not advocate running Falcon's Swiftness as you'll be getting the same buff from Combat Prayer anyway, and even if not, in the tests I have run, using it in place of a Cliff Racer or a Deep Fissure, for example, is a DPS loss.

I actually took the Blue Betty off my bar in my group's Halls of Fabrication attempt yesterday, on the second boss, and replaced it with Lotus Blossom for the healing and mana return. This was because I was on upstairs duty and I found the heals to be more beneficial for not only me, but the three others upstairs with me as well. Sustain without the Betty was fine. Both with and without, I still find that I have to heavy attack, but I'm not sure if it can really be avoided.

You very well might be right about Necro. My warden grind is going very slowly. Haha. Necro is certainly BIS for magic DPS if you have a pet. Whether or not it makes sense to run a pet on a warden is perhaps a different story. I will say that trying to run Falcons, Betty, and Lotus at the same time is not something I would care to do in trials. And you are right, Falcons is 100% redundant with Combat prayer. This has been the complaint of Mageblades for a while, but at least they have a hard hitting proc to go with their skill. Again, same is true for Netch. You dont run it for the damage buff in trials, it would only be for Necro and and the regen. Sorcs run a skill for necro, but it also a big damage skill so it it's pretty easy to justify. Lotus Blossom does nothing for DPS (assuming you run pots), and almost nobody runs anything for defense/heals other than a shield.

So again, if you just take those three skills off our bar for the sake of min/maxing for trials, you are left with a very simple rotation that just doesnt do a lot of DPS.

One thing to consider, Necro does scale in trials better than julianos. Also, for pure single target, we might want the bear ultimate, which again would favor necro. The one niche a warden DPS might have is for running Master Architect with a low cost ulti to help Major Slayer uptime. That said, a mNB can do a much better job of that.

stileanima

Updated my original post with a few more parses on the 3 million HP skeleton as well as a couple on the 6 million HP one.

For the next round of testing I want to try using Trap Beast, and perhaps a bit of a different rotation. I still think this class can pump out more. Plus who knows what changes are coming down the line for the next patch and beyond.

Have any of you run tests with alternative setups that look promising?

Gaden.Phoenix

What should I use instead of MoonDancers (if I cannot get)?

Currently running:
1. 5 Necro, 4 Julianos, 2 Iceheart
2. (previously) 5 Julianos, 4 Necro, 2 Iceheart

With:
Front Bar: Ice Staff
Back Bar: Flame Staff

Cannot seem to do any good dps before my mana goes bye bye.

Also can show off your skills used and their rotation?

Currently using the below build: https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/build/warden/dark-summoner/25231/

Lastly I thought Pets where bad for Dungeons? How does the bear perform in vet dungeons?

Thanks and Regards,
Gadenp

Morgul667

Interesting post :-)

Dixa

First of all the delay and wonky targeting of fissure is an annoyance in dungeons.

The bear is not a good ultimate. It does the same damage as sorc clannfear while not taunting for the solo warden in either morph, eats two ultimate slots meaning no destro ultimate and it frequently disappears into the walls never to return unless you remove and reslot the ultimate

Neither skills should be in your pro column

Dixa

Gaden.Phoenix wrote: »

What should I use instead of MoonDancers (if I cannot get)?

Currently running:
1. 5 Necro, 4 Julianos, 2 Iceheart
2. (previously) 5 Julianos, 4 Necro, 2 Iceheart

With:
Front Bar: Ice Staff
Back Bar: Flame Staff

Cannot seem to do any good dps before my mana goes bye bye.

Also can show off your skills used and their rotation?

Currently using the below build: https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/build/warden/dark-summoner/25231/

Lastly I thought Pets where bad for Dungeons? How does the bear perform in vet dungeons?

Thanks and Regards,
Gadenp

Get rid of the ice staff for lightning staff and make sure you have the off balance cp node. That alone will make a huge difference

As you are using ice staff my money is on you following the earlier dork thread and passing on tri focus. This is a large dps loss, do not do this.

Ice staff is ok when solo, but not for grouping

Dixa

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

My Warden is only at level 42, but I am starting to get a feel for it. My thought is that it will need some pretty serious buffs to compete for a spot in a leader board group. The flipside is that I dont think the rotation is really all the difficult and they are fairly survivable. Might become a favorite for pugs. I was able to solo skyreach at level 6, so they can definitely stay alive and play at range.

I think Wardens will sought after for utility (off tank or second healer), but without some damage buffs, they will be lackluster as DPS. Most people have them parsing in the mid to high 20s. Considering most other builds are parsing in the high 30's low 40s, they have some work to do.

From a practical standpoint, they have a lot of buffs to deal with. Keeping up the netch (for Necro proc and regen, dont care about spell damage) and Warden Wings (for the damage buff) make the rotation more awkward and dont give you the benefits of comparable skills like a Familiar or Mericless.

Aside from that, what you seem to be left with is a pretty simple rotation of 3 back bar dots, and a front bar rotation of Deep fissurre, Cliff racer x2, and repeat 2-3 times. It feels like a simplified old school sorc rotation. Simple, but not very high on the damage scale.

That wings buff needs to be 21 seconds before i will ever consider using it

Masel

Don't use necropotence... It makes your light and heavy attacks hit like a wet noodle on a warden while not granting any sustain.

Ice staff can be okay on the back bar when you only have a sharpened vMA ice staff and you still main a good lightning staff. The dps gain from light (and especially lightning heavy attacks when you use one on front bar) will be better than a random sharpened fire staff.

Dixa

Masel92 wrote: »

Don't use necropotence... It makes your light and heavy attacks hit like a wet noodle on a warden while not granting any sustain.

Ice staff can be okay on the back bar when you only have a sharpened vMA ice staff and you still main a good lightning staff. The dps gain from light (and especially lightning heavy attacks when you use one on front bar) will be better than a random sharpened fire staff.

If you are not taking tri focus so your ice staff heavy attacks don't taunt off the tank every time then no, ice staff is a net dps loss over a crafted inferno. That 6% passive is less damage that the single target buff from inferno and ape buff from lightning with tri focus

stileanima

Gaden.Phoenix wrote: »

What should I use instead of MoonDancers (if I cannot get)?

Currently running:
1. 5 Necro, 4 Julianos, 2 Iceheart
2. (previously) 5 Julianos, 4 Necro, 2 Iceheart

With:
Front Bar: Ice Staff
Back Bar: Flame Staff

Cannot seem to do any good dps before my mana goes bye bye.

Also can show off your skills used and their rotation?

Currently using the below build: https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/build/warden/dark-summoner/25231/

Lastly I thought Pets where bad for Dungeons? How does the bear perform in vet dungeons?

Thanks and Regards,
Gadenp

If you do not have Moondancer, I would recommend 5x Julianos to replace it. As for your second set, I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Personally, the more I test it, the more strongly I share @Masel92 's opinion about Necropotence. Light attacks make up a really good portion of the Magicka Warden's overall DPS, and Necropotence does not serve to boost it. Plus, what he says about that set not contributing to sustain is absolutely true.

My friend is actually running 5x Lich and 5x Necro and is able to achieve around 30k DPS, perhaps a little under (and maybe a little more when he has Undaunted leveled). So maybe you could try 5x Lich and 5x Julianos? Again, to be completely honest, I'm not sure yet on which alternative to Moondancer would be best to run, but as I continue to test, I think Moondancer is by far best in slot, winning out over Necropotence. So in the end, try to farm some normal Maw of Lorkhaj runs to get it.

For all of my parses above (except the first), I used the following skill load out:



I mentioned earlier on in this thread that I wanted to experiment with the placement of Elemental Blockade to see if I could achieve a higher uptime, as it constantly fell off when I had it on the back bar. I am so far happier with Blockade on the front bar, using a Maelstrom Staff, as I am able to have it up nearly 100% of the time, which is very important for increasing the overall damage output of my light and heavy attacks. As I said above, lights and heavies make up a LOT of my overall DPS on the Magicka Warden (around 20% combined), so I want to pump them up as much as I can.

Also, I want to say again that I am not certain if my current setup is completely optimized-- in fact, I'm sure it's not! @Masel92 might be able to give some insight as well on a different build as he looks to have tested a few things in different ways than I have.

As for my rotation, I will try to get a video posted to show you what I'm doing so far. It's kind of odd to explain because it's dynamic by nature, so I think actually watching would be better than me writing some gibberish down.


About pets in Veteran Dungeons: In my opinion, they're totally fine to run. The only thing that might be tricky is, even though you can still use controls to command pets, they will automatically target enemies that you heavy attack. This can lead to your pet running around aimlessly if you heavy attack multiple targets, which will mean they do a total of 0 damage. Plus, if the enemy that your pet was attacking dies, your pet could then run off to a random enemy in the corner if you're not careful about controlling it, making fights take longer than necessary.

In fights with a lot of enemies, the Destruction Staff ultimate is superior to the Eternal Guardian. For single-target fights, the Eternal Guardian is really strong. Over the past couple of days, though, I've run lots of dungeons to level Undaunted, and had no trouble using the bars I have pictured above for all encounters (no Destro Ulti for anything, and none of the gripes that @Dixa encounters), in part because Deep Fissure hits like a truck in AOE. Would stuff have died faster if I had used the Destro Ult for AOE? Absolutely. But I was completely fine and dished out more than enough damage without. In the end, do what is best for you and your group.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

If you want to front bar a VMA staff, would perhaps BIS gear on a warden be to go 5Julianos, 4 Moondancer, 1 Monster set (spell damage or max magic), VMA on front bar, and back bar 5,5,1 with a back bar moondancer? Or do you just go with 2 VMA staffs and no monster? I suppose the nice thing about Julianos is that it's easy to go 5/1/1.

I am currently running 5 moondancer/5 necro with double VMA staffs, and needless to say, I am not impressed. Haha.

MLGProPlayer

Gaden.Phoenix wrote: »

What should I use instead of MoonDancers (if I cannot get)?

Currently running:
1. 5 Necro, 4 Julianos, 2 Iceheart
2. (previously) 5 Julianos, 4 Necro, 2 Iceheart

With:
Front Bar: Ice Staff
Back Bar: Flame Staff

Cannot seem to do any good dps before my mana goes bye bye.

Also can show off your skills used and their rotation?

Currently using the below build: https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/build/warden/dark-summoner/25231/

Lastly I thought Pets where bad for Dungeons? How does the bear perform in vet dungeons?

Thanks and Regards,
Gadenp

The bear is fine in most dungeons. Obviously you'd still rather have destro ulti for clearing trash mobs and adds during boss fights, but the bear manages to survive most fights (or at least not die too often). I've cleared all hardmode pledges so far on first attempt with my warden (all teams were PUGs too). I've also had top DPS in a lot of these, so you don't neccessarily need to be carried (although that's more a testament to most dungeons being very easy).

Gaden.Phoenix

I thought 3900 Magicka is about 370+ Spell Damage and Spell Damage affects Staff attacks?

Is that no longer so? That should be more Spell Damage then Julianos 5th set gives.

Masel

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you want to front bar a VMA staff, would perhaps BIS gear on a warden be to go 5Julianos, 4 Moondancer, 1 Monster set (spell damage or max magic), VMA on front bar, and back bar 5,5,1 with a back bar moondancer? Or do you just go with 2 VMA staffs and no monster? I suppose the nice thing about Julianos is that it's easy to go 5/1/1.

I am currently running 5 moondancer/5 necro with double VMA staffs, and needless to say, I am not impressed. Haha.

As I said above: warden skills use the regular 10.5 conversion. So necropotence does not give more than other sets, it's comparable. On a sorc, the pet scales only with magicka and sorcs have a shock damage and spell damage bonus that makes up for the loss in spell damage for your light and heavy attacks.

I'd always recommend going for 7 light armor now and opt for more spell damage than magicka as the 4% cost reduction makes up for a big difference in a warden rotation. It's about a 100-130 cost you save every second plus 8% recovery for 4% magicka. And wardens usually have 10% minor toughness and ebon all the time, either from warhorn or their own passive.

Math comparing Julianos and Necropotence assuming 20% of your actions coming from light and heavy attacks (145 out of 819 hits in your 6 million parse were light or heavy attacks):

Necropotence:
Magicka: 50283
Spell Damage: 3147
Spell critical: 58.8%
Spell critical damage multiplier: 69%

Raw Effective Spell Damage prior to CP:

((4789+3147)*(1+0.588*0.69))*0.8+((1242+3147)*(1+0.588*0.69))*0.2=10159

Julianos:

Magicka: 42255
Spell Damage: 3507
Spell critical: 65.1%
Spell critical damage multiplier: 69%


((42255/10.5+3507)*(1+0.651*0.69))*0.8+((42255/40.5+3507)*(1+0.651*0.69))*0.2=10050

Of course the amount of damage coming from your light and heavy attacks (so the 0.8 and 0.2 weights of it) is based on the sets you use, so it's difficult to measure without actually calculating everything (replicating the parse theoretically).

stileanima

Masel92 wrote: »

As I said above: warden skills use the regular 10.5 conversion. So necropotence does not give more than other sets, it's comparable. On a sorc, the pet scales only with magicka and sorcs have a shock damage and spell damage bonus that makes up for the loss in spell damage for your light and heavy attacks.

I'd always recommend going for 7 light armor now and opt for more spell damage than magicka as the 4% cost reduction makes up for a big difference in a warden rotation. It's about a 100-130 cost you save every second plus 8% recovery for 4% magicka. And wardens usually have 10% minor toughness and ebon all the time, either from warhorn or their own passive.

Math comparing Julianos and Necropotence assuming 20% of your actions coming from light and heavy attacks (145 out of 819 hits in your 6 million parse were light or heavy attacks):

Necropotence:
Magicka: 50283
Spell Damage: 3147
Spell critical: 58.8%
Spell critical damage multiplier: 69%

Raw Effective Spell Damage prior to CP:

((4789+3147)*(1+0.588*0.69))*0.8+((1242+3147)*(1+0.588*0.69))*0.2=10159

Julianos:

Magicka: 42255
Spell Damage: 3507
Spell critical: 65.1%
Spell critical damage multiplier: 69%


((42255/10.5+3507)*(1+0.651*0.69))*0.8+((42255/40.5+3507)*(1+0.651*0.69))*0.2=10050

Of course the amount of damage coming from your light and heavy attacks (so the 0.8 and 0.2 weights of it) is based on the sets you use, so it's difficult to measure without actually calculating everything (replicating the parse theoretically).

Thanks for the maths and the information in general. Very much a huge help, for me and others as well, as my methods of "testing" basically consist of pressing buttons and seeing if stuff works. I will keep this in mind for future skeleton punching and beyond.

Dixa

gilliamtherogue is the only youtuber who doesn't try to shill for viewers, name his builds or promote something his guild is selling in their guild shop. he does some lengthy, in depth videos analyzing each class. he also plays every class, every spec unlike many youtube scrubstars who make builds about magicka this or magicka that when all they actually have personal experience with is 2h gg crit rush dead pvp.

his conclusion today is that warden magicka dps is the lowest in the game. it's not too low to not bring to a vet trial, but it is the lowest in the game. stamina wardens are in a slightly better spot.

he also concludes that both warden setups offer great pvp utility and power.

i agree with his assessment. magicka warden needs a buff and it needs a direct buff, not an indirect buff by nerfing magicka sorcs.

stileanima

Updated the original post with a short video of the rotation I am using since some people have asked about it. I don't expect it to be the "end all, be all", but for now, it's what I'm getting the best results with. I hope it's helpful for others who are unsure of what buttons to press with this "clunky" class (I'm still not 100% sure).

Vaoh

Today I managed to level up my Mag Warden to 50.

I originally decided it would easily be best to slot 1x Ilambris, 5x Moondancer (with lightning staff), 5x Necropotence, 1x vMA Inferno staff.

However, I am starting to have doubts. Necropotence may not be as strong as we thought it was because:
1. Provides zero benefit to light/heavy attacks
2. Does not help sustain anymore, since resource return synergies restore flat amounts (no longer scaling with your max stats) of Magicka/Stamina to you as of Morrowind.

This means that your Max Magicka gain only serves as a lesser Spell Damage now. However, it still buffs shields (meh for PvE) and gets boosted by Northern Storm, Shooting Star, Inner Light, and Undaunted passives.

It all comes together to create a wierd situation..... Necropotence is still BiS for a Magicka Sorc, but not for a Warden.

I'll be testing a lot of stuff to find a better setup, because it absolutely exists. The setup just turns out different than what we are used to is all.

Also BUFF MAG WARDEN DPS ALREADY

stileanima

Updated the first post again and probably for the last time with another video of a different parse. Magicka Warden can definitely pull off 35-36k single-target before any raid buffs, but of course, this is with using Eternal Guardian rather than an ulti that would be more beneficial in AOE situations, and is also heavily reliant on good group synergy. Magicka Warden could definitely use a bit of a buff, but I don't think it's that bad! I hope @Vaoh and others who are keen on pushing this class to its limit post their results after testing and general feedback here. Perhaps it can still do more.

Sharee

Not sure if mentioned but i love the "+200% chance to apply chilled" passive.

If you combine this with the destro staff passive that increases effect chances by 100% (and possibly wielding a weapon with a trait that boosts it by another 100+%) then basically a wall of frost over winter's revenge = AOE root, 90% of the time.

Vaoh

I have only had Morrowind for 6 days on PS4, but so far here are my observations, which have held true since I first watched people played the Warden awhile ago:

There are two PvE rotations that you can use: One is the typical rotation of DoTs -> spammable DPS that every class uses. The second is unique rotation I have found only possible as a Magicka Warden. It seems to pull slightly more DPS, but is very difficult to get good with and requires a lot more out of the player. Probably not worth using tbh, as it must be followed quite strictly and with few mistakes, which shielding in a trial and especially lag may get in the way of.

Notable Bugs:

• *Winter's Revenge (possibly Impaling Shards and Gripping Shards too) hits with less critical hits than it should. It seems to strike with about 10% lower critical chance than it should. It might not be taking Major Prophecy into account. All I can confirm is that it is gritting less than it should, always appearing much lower than any other skill. (known and reported bug)
• Dive and its morphs can be purposely delayed and desync enemy health when casted into a bar swap. This might only be on the client side. Must be fixed - I am almost positive this was reported in the Morrowind Beta. On a target skeleton it took 22-25 seconds for desynced damage to begin striking (same as Blue Netch IV duration).

Overall Suggestions for PvE DPS

Magicka Warden absolutely needs multiple buffs for PvE DPS. PvP-wise it is fine (I love my it!). In particular, I would like to see a few things happen. Here are my proposed buffs atm:
• Winter's Revenge must get buffed DPS-wise to be on par with Liquid Lightning. I managed to get my Blockade of Fire tooltip equal on both my Magicka Sorc and Magicka Warden (within 10 damage). Turns out that Winter's Revenge is dealing around 20-25% less damage per tick than Liquid Lightning. Considering the current state of Amgicka Warden, it seriously needs the buff.
• Screaming Cliff Racer should not give 15% damage done based on range for Magicka Wardens. It does not synergize well enough for them compared to Stamina Wardens. That 15% ranged damage done applies perfectly for a ranged Stamina Bow build, which the Warden explicitly advertised. The Magicka morph should add a helpful PvE effect I suggest a stacking self-buff of some sort that increases all Cold Damage dealt to the target by 2/3% more for 10 seconds, stacking 5 times.
• Fletcher Infection could use a flat out DPS buff. This skill also needs to have a secondary effect rather than simply being a singular, boring DoT. I think it'd be a good change if the damage morph was added into the base effect for this skill. Afterward, the AoE spread morph should become a Stamina variant, and the Magicka Variant should grant a different effect. I suggest the affected enemy and 5 nearby enemies to take 10%-15% increased Cold Damage for 10 seconds. More onto this next:
• One of the Warden skills (either active or passive) must apply a 10%-15% cold damage done debuff to the enemy, similar to the DK's 10% fire damage done debuff. This should help Wardens deal more damage in general. Swarm, Impaling Shards, and Animal Companions/Winter's Embrace passives come to mind as good candidates.

Anyway, these are my current suggestions This all buffs Magicka Warden on the PvE-side a lot while not touching the PvP-side at all. If things went my way, ZOS would:
1. Bug fix Winter's Revenge crit and increase damage by 10%-15% per tick
2. Change Screaming Cliff Racer into Freezing Dive, increasing damage by 5% and causing the enemy to take 3% more cold damage for 12 seconds, stacking up to 5 times (cooldown reset on ability cast). Visual effect now has an icy trail behind the Cliff Racer. Still deals Magic Damage. Cutting Dive would get the 15% increased damage scaling with distance from target.
3. Swarm gains Fletcher Infection morph as a base effect. Growing Swarm becomes a Stamina morph. Fletcher Infection now causes the affected enemy and up to 5 nearby enemies (10m radius) to take 10% increased Cold Damage from all sources.
4. One of the Winter's Embrace passives (preferably the passive that only reduces snare effectiveness on self or the 200% Chilled chance passive) gains a second effect, now causing enemies hit by Winter's Embrace skills to take 5% more Cold Damage from all sources.
5. Allow Ice Staves to increase all damage done by 2/3%. Remove Ice Staff Heavy Attack taunt. Make Inner Fire the Lv1 Undaunted skill line unlock, and lower cost when an Ice Staff is equipped.

This all would help Magicka Warden deal competitive DPS and would be pretty cool imo. They need it.... their DPS is just horrible atm and realistically not even remotely worth taking in trials over any other class spec.

Gaden.Phoenix

Vaoh wrote: »

However, I am starting to have doubts. Necropotence may not be as strong as we thought it was because:
1. Provides zero benefit to light/heavy attacks

I though Staff Light and Heavy attack is increased by Spell Damage. Since Max Magicka gives Spell Damage, why is Necro not a good set?

Would help me alot to understand.

Either Spell Damage does not increase staff attacks then Necro is not a good set or Spell Damage does, in which what is wrong with Necro. I really want to know.

Julianos gives 299 Spell Damage, Necro gives 3918 Magicka which also gives about 370 Spell Damage... Is not Necro better?

Of cause Moondancer is better but I really want to know about Necro and staff light & heavy damage...

Vaoh

Gaden.Phoenix wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

However, I am starting to have doubts. Necropotence may not be as strong as we thought it was because:
1. Provides zero benefit to light/heavy attacks

I though Staff Light and Heavy attack is increased by Spell Damage.

Since Max Magicka gives Spell Damage, why is not Necro is not a good set.

So either Spell Damage does not increase staff attacks then Necro is not a good set or Spell Damage does, in which why is Necro not a good set.

Julianos gives 299 Spell Damage, Necro gives 3918 Magicka which also gives about 370 Spell Damage... Is not Necro better?

No no no no..... Max Magicka does not grant spell damage. That is completely incorrect.

You probably read something that said effective Spell Power. Most Skills gain as much damage from 1 Spell Damage point and they do from about 10.15 (or was it 10.5?) Max Magicka. This makes it more beneficial damage-wise to stack Spell Damage. Stacking Max Magicka does not also passively grant Spell Damage.

However:
• Max Magicka alone determines Summon Shades/Summon Familiar damage and Shield Strength
• Spell Damage alone determines Light/Heavy attack damage with staves