The new resource management change

Lirkin

I've been trying to play the game lately and find that I can usually deal with the changes in PVE but and still not happy about it. The place I find it much harder to deal with is in PVP.

Here is my problem. I am not asking for a rely by players but want to point out to Zenimax a problem.

Peoples damage potential is linked to either Magic or Stamina. No news there but other skills are also linked to the resources that effect their damage.

I play mainly Stamina characters but I originally started with Magicka characters because of how the original game was setup. I don't like what I have to use for weapons if magicka based except for my multiple sorcerers.. I want to use swords, bows and daggers an other weapons like that because of the way I see the various classes. I do like that change so that classes that use these weapons can use stamina now. I say this so you know where I am coming from.

The problem I see is that Stamina is not only used for damage and skills related to one hand, dual wield, two hand and bow. It's used for sneaking, dodge roll, blocking and such. This makes Stamina builds extra effected by the resource changes! The Magic users can sprint and even if they run out of stamina can still defend them self's much more effectively that a stamina use can. This makes it very have in PVP and such to be effective. Because of this it's going to be very hard to find a balance between the two resources.

For some kind of parity here you should really change so that damage both magicka and stamina are not grouped with other resources.

The problem shows up in PVP because it usually between more that one player and often many players. Once the changes took effect I die a lot more and find it very hard to kill another player one on one. I know I am not the best player in PVP but do you really want you game played by only the elite players.

For a long time I resisted PVP until I realized that I am at a disadvantage in PVE without some of the skills that I can only get in PVP.

I was coming to like PVP to some extent and now I find it a pain because of the constant dying because I run out of stamina. I have been playing in the under 50 and lower level characters in there are at a disadvantage in may way especially now since they don't have the resource management capabilities the higher levels do.

I'm sure this is somewhat true for magicka build and I will see when I try a sorcerer in PVP.

I am not asking for a nerf but for the whole picture be used when making these changes. You have a good game here but this last change is not a positive one. I'm not sure what you intended these changes to accomplish.


One other thing that maybe players can answer:

Why is sneaking a percentage of stamina? I use a food to increase my stamina and it runs out the same not matter what my stamina is. This makes classes that sneak as part of their damage trees even more effected by the stamina resource changes.

FoulSnowpaw

Yea stamina is used for literally EVERYTHING in both pve and pvp.
Magicka builds generally have more magicka, magicka steal, and magicka absorbtion, also not to mention equilibrium/dark exchange resource fountains. Oh and even arcane wel which gives magickal in CP.
Stamina builds have been hit by an airplane.
ZOS really needs to make improvements to stamina gameplay.

Lirkin

I guess we will see.

CaptainBeerDude

Just changed my Khajiit sorc to stam in preparation for Morrowind. Mildly hopeful I can make it work well as he is currently a reasonable murder machine (in PVE, and I can't believe I've never used DW in this before.)
I think I'll be able to mould him into Stabby Tabby, the Critty Cat.
How much slower is the regen in patch, dear masterrace person? Half speed? Slower? Faster?

Glamdring

As a stam nb you cant build for damage only, get sets that gives you recovery and max stam. and you will be fine. and regarding sneak cost, u have 4 points into improved hiding?

Zarrakon

This issue goes two ways. Characters built on magicka can only break free or roll dodge 2-3 times before they're completely vulnerable. Stamina abilities are also generally cheaper across the board, to account for this sort of thing.

Most people will die when they run out of resources. And this may surprise you, but nothing dies faster than a magicka sorcerer without magicka.

Doctordarkspawn

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Just changed my Khajiit sorc to stam in preparation for Morrowind. Mildly hopeful I can make it work well as he is currently a reasonable murder machine (in PVE, and I can't believe I've never used DW in this before.)
I think I'll be able to mould him into Stabby Tabby, the Critty Cat.
How much slower is the regen in patch, dear masterrace person? Half speed? Slower? Faster?

Think nonexistant.

Whatever build you think will work it wont, trust me.

Glamdring

forgot one thing, i assume you wearing medium armour?

Lirkin

Yes I am wearing medium armor

CaptainBeerDude

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Just changed my Khajiit sorc to stam in preparation for Morrowind. Mildly hopeful I can make it work well as he is currently a reasonable murder machine (in PVE, and I can't believe I've never used DW in this before.)
I think I'll be able to mould him into Stabby Tabby, the Critty Cat.
How much slower is the regen in patch, dear masterrace person? Half speed? Slower? Faster?

Think nonexistant.

Whatever build you think will work it wont, trust me.

Guess it's a good thing I don't mind the odd heavy attack then.

Just to be clear, you say my regen is going to drop 2k points?

greylox

Resource changes have made fights longer for no good reason and noobs in pugs are running out even quicker and it's becoming a heavy attack fest that's draining my will to live.

In all fairness I can deal with the changes personally although I wouldn't have gone as far and when I'm with guildies or mates that know what they're doing it doesn't drag anywhere near as much and I've enjoyed the fact I've had to change builds slighltly and watch my bars more, change rotations. But in the grand scheme of things with all sorts of players in the mix, it's too much.

Lirkin

The points into hiding don't do anything like they used to so have fun with it. I hope it works for you when you have four players on you and you have to break free and then have not stamina so swing at them with and try and kill them with heavy attacks no stamina or try to block.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

They need to make repentance give stam back to the whole group again.

Parrot1986

Agree as an magika character I don't do any damage based off stamina, however if I sprint about like a headless chicken my stam pool won't last long and I'm normally in no so CP if I get 1 CC that takes like 65% of my pool anyways.

Don't play stam a lot but orc is pretty OP for manoeuvrability and a 12% sprint reduction is huge, also if you play CP then the front loading now gets you significant reduction in dodge roll, block, sprint too.

For me with the sustain changes are ok just getting used to them but they should have gotten rid or at least balanced cost poisons theyre far too OP now.

Glamdring

Lirkin wrote: »

The points into hiding don't do anything like they used to so have fun with it. I hope it works for you when you have four players on you and you have to break free and then have not stamina so swing at them with and try and kill them with heavy attacks no stamina or try to block.

U get 40% reduced sneak cost with 4 points in there, it doesnt help? and with medium armour u get more reduced sneak cost. i basically dont drain any stamina sneaking. We playing the same game? my stam nb in pvp are doing just fine.

idk

All stamina skills cost 20% less than magicka. Even class skill stamina morphs are 20% less. The reasoning is probably because stamina is used for other things as you mentioned.

Additionally, magicka users have much less stam so they can dodge roll, sneak and such much less than stamina users and a heavy attack with their weapon does not return more stamina.

So yes, it is a double edged sword ( no pun) but the tradeoff is lower costs skills and longer duration of life saving stamina when needed.

Galwylin

They recently increased stamina costs of abilities. I don't even remember what it changed. Just 15% less instead of 20%?. I can't remember the reasoning but it has something to do with this sustain patch. I made my guy's healing dependent on his crits so loss of stamina means no crits so no heals so dead. Now I could have gone for more regen and what have you but I don't like this game of guess the next dev nerf. I'm not sure what is so attractive to them about heavy attacks.

Even there, they want to make light attacks better so they raise the damage of them then lower heavy. What? How did heavy attacks get their damage lower to make light attacks better. Doesn't just raising their damage accomplish that? While its no matter to me, I don't get these people that thinks raising one skill up means another must come down. They can't figure out that raising the damage on one is enough to raise the damage on it.

That was the approach with sustain. Not only are they going to lower its regen but they go in and raise the cost. But they don't stop there. Every skill with it gets changed. Armor. You can lower sustain with any of those. You don't need to change everything concerning it. And for what? To slow things down. Really, if you can't burst it down its one of the most boring things to do. Hopefully you have a class that can last through your needed regen.

I was almost hating my new warden then I remembered these changes might be why he so boring to play running out of everything at low levels. A bit better now but I think I'd done leveling up new characters for a bit. Its just no fun.

The_Undefined

That's my main issue with this game overall. It's not about balance changes or cash shop or One Tamriel or any other hotbutton issue that's going on at the moment. It's the fact that this game is not stable with all of the Devs constantly changing things.

YES, I know games need to change to grow with the playerbase... but every 3-6months? I've seen 3 MAJOR game changing patches (probably more than that, just counting the big names) within less than a year. A year?! It takes other MMOs 1-2 years for 1 major game changing patch (an expansion).

I've tried bringing in 5 people to play this game, they all quit as soon as a patch hit. I don't blame them. Why relearn your rotation / class when you're just trying to find your footing AND there are other MMOs / games out there that you're already comfortable with?

I don't know who thinks in Zenimax all of these changes are a good idea - they're not! You've already lost 5 subs due to this, and that's from one player. I definitely will not be bringing in any new players again, nor will I defend this game to my friends due to this unstable developer atmosphere.

Agobi

I have to say, after having played this new system for a few days....combat has become really boring

Standing there shooting heavy staff attacks 50 % of the time to refill magicka bar is just.....sooooo not fun

Not sure what their actual aim was with this change...but for me its caused me to start looking for something else to fill my playtime

Insandros

Agobi wrote: »

I have to say, after having played this new system for a few days....combat has become really boring

Standing there shooting heavy staff attacks 50 % of the time to refill magicka bar is just.....sooooo not fun

Not sure what their actual aim was with this change...but for me its caused me to start looking for something else to fill my playtime

Well i only have a few things to say, first, find better healers, not selfish ones, ones that supports, when i'm healing, no one missies anythign and don't go in heavy attacks that much, unlesss stupid player not adjustin himselfto the changes, each end of runs i ask them how their ressources were to adjust myself to others and the changes, most of the time i get comments like, « it's solid » « we we'Re going pretty well » etc... as for dpsing, let me guess, you haven't adjsut yourself, you didn'T changes some spell dmg stuff to some regen? I'm sure you'Re one of them who still thinks that aboutr huge dps and numbers and not sustain, am i right? I've changed some stuff on my sorc, yep a bit less dmg than before, but i even stand longer than i was pre-last patch, so on my side, nothing have changed much, just need to adapt and change a few things, or tried stuff on your side, not jsut copy build found on the net, adjust to your own play style. In other words, all the stuff i have made since the patch are stilll as cool as before, i go to admit Direfrost last boss was a pain, because stupid stam dps weren'T adjusting, so the boss kept healing itself, he never realised that he was runing out of stam but kept spaming Undaunted's Bone shield every few seconds... but that's a small player error that lead to thse faillure which was a lot of time even before the patch.

Agobi

Insandros wrote: »

Agobi wrote: »

I have to say, after having played this new system for a few days....combat has become really boring

Standing there shooting heavy staff attacks 50 % of the time to refill magicka bar is just.....sooooo not fun

Not sure what their actual aim was with this change...but for me its caused me to start looking for something else to fill my playtime

Well i only have a few things to say, first, find better healers, not selfish ones, ones that supports, when i'm healing, no one missies anythign and don't go in heavy attacks that much, unlesss stupid player not adjustin himselfto the changes, each end of runs i ask them how their ressources were to adjust myself to others and the changes, most of the time i get comments like, « it's solid » « we we'Re going pretty well » etc... as for dpsing, let me guess, you haven't adjsut yourself, you didn'T changes some spell dmg stuff to some regen? I'm sure you'Re one of them who still thinks that aboutr huge dps and numbers and not sustain, am i right? I've changed some stuff on my sorc, yep a bit less dmg than before, but i even stand longer than i was pre-last patch, so on my side, nothing have changed much, just need to adapt and change a few things, or tried stuff on your side, not jsut copy build found on the net, adjust to your own play style. In other words, all the stuff i have made since the patch are stilll as cool as before, i go to admit Direfrost last boss was a pain, because stupid stam dps weren'T adjusting, so the boss kept healing itself, he never realised that he was runing out of stam but kept spaming Undaunted's Bone shield every few seconds... but that's a small player error that lead to thse faillure which was a lot of time even before the patch.

Ill just say this...every assumption you just made in your post is wrong

ADarklore

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

All stamina skills cost 20% less than magicka. Even class skill stamina morphs are 20% less. The reasoning is probably because stamina is used for other things as you mentioned.

Additionally, magicka users have much less stam so they can dodge roll, sneak and such much less than stamina users and a heavy attack with their weapon does not return more stamina.

So yes, it is a double edged sword ( no pun) but the tradeoff is lower costs skills and longer duration of life saving stamina when needed.

The bolded is wrong and changed with Morrowind update... they reduced stamina skills to 15% less, down from 20%.

To quote patch notes:
"Stamina abilities are now universally 15% cheaper than their Magicka counterparts, originally being 20% cheaper. This includes class abilities that morph into Stamina abilities, in addition to the Weapon Skill Line passive abilities which reduce the cost of abilities in that Skill Line (Balanced Blade, Controlled Fury, etc.)"

Lirkin

PVE and PVP are quite different if you run out of Stamina and are a Stamina build you are dead in PVP. It's hardly ever one person attacking you in PVP but multiples. Who has a chance to heavy attack. Light attack might work but the heavy attacks with a sword where you have to be in the face does not work. Even in PVE if run out of stamina if the mob is harder than normal most of the time but atleast it usually is only one mob by then so I can mostly heavy attack until I get some stamina back.

The problem is that the impact of these resource changes impact every character the same but it hurts more in some situations than other and they didn't seem to take that into account.

Low level characters are effected more that higher level characters and solo situations and PVP are more impacted than groups.

fred4

Lirkin wrote: »

The Magic users can sprint and even if they run out of stamina can still defend them self's much more effectively that a stamina use can.

You really haven't played magicka lately. This is completely wrong. As a magblade, if I am out of stamina, yes I can spam shields, but if I don't currently have CC immunuity, I am dead. Simple as that. Some players don't know this. I had a comical fight recently, where I spammed Harness Magicka for a good 20 seconds. The attackers kept feeding me magicka, and they didn't CC me. Well then, yes, I can defend. More experienced players would have CCd and killed me within 2 seconds.

You think I use stamina for running? Hahahaha. For dodge rolling? Only when I can't help myself, since I used to play stam and do it instinctively sometimes. For blocking? Only in emergencies, when I'm on the wrong bar.

A magicka characters' stamina pool of 10 - 15K is good for 2 to 3 break frees. Typical regen is something like 600 every 2 seconds. You can be CCd every 7 seconds. You recover 2100 stamina within those 7 seconds. A break free, as a magicka character, costs something like 4 to 5K. Can you see where I'm going with this? Without additional measures, such as potions, Leeching Strikes, Arena set, Amber Plasm set, stam draining poisons, and so on, I cannot withstand an experienced player. They will keep CCing me and kill me. Sometimes I am forced to cloak away when I look at my stamina pool, because I know I would loose the next round of the fight. FYI, I have 51 points in Warlord for 19% break free reduction.

I have not played my stamina DK since before Morrowind. I don't know how it is now, but up to now sustain was a non-issue for me. You have a bigger stamina pool. You have stamina recovery. You have the means to generate stamina from heavy attacks, and further means as a DK or stamsorc. This made sprinting, roll dodging and blocking viable. As a magicka character, in PvP, it is not viable. You completely have the wrong end of the stick there.

Maybe you don't realise how squishy light armor users are. Without my shield, I'm dead. I cannot afford to be CCd. My Nord stam DK is a lot tankier in medium armor than my Breton nightblade, in light. It's more forgiving to play stamina DK than magblade. Mag toons' shields can be very strong, but make a mistake, or run out of stamina, and you go down in a heartbeat.

I cannot speak for heavy armor magicka users, so maybe that's a flaw in my logic. Watching Blob's latest mag DK video, I'll add that the above is my experience with magblade, and your mileage may vary. For example if you are a magicka DK, built for blocking, well then you obviously can block. You're probably using all Sturdy armor then. Similarly, if you used all Well-Fitted, you might roll dodge as a magicka build. What I was talking about is a ranged, light armor, build that uses shields (Harness / Dampen / Healing Ward), not sword and board. I'll stand by my point in regard to that build. When I only played stamina, I thought as you did. Once I started playing magicka, I quickly realised that stamina is severely constrained as a magicka character. Any ideas of sprinting, dodge rolling, or blocking quickly went out the window.

I also tried using an ice-staff, for blocking, once. It did not feel good, but ran my magicka pool down very quickly. Certainly blocking on my stamina DK, or a conventional S&B sap tank setup on my NB, before the Siphoning Attacks nerf, felt a lot more viable than blocking with the ice staff.

Lirkin

Has anyone checked to see if dodge role or break free use a percentage of you stamina like sneaking does?

By the way I am not saying that the nerf to resources is only effecting stamina builds I am just pointing out that what I see as a stamina user.

I don't agree with the resource nerf for any builds. I just think that have to share my stamina with dodge-roll and break-free and sneaking is just crazy and makes it hard to balance and I thing it is not balanced now.

hmsdragonfly

Lirkin wrote: »

The problem I see is that Stamina is not only used for damage and skills related to one hand, dual wield, two hand and bow. It's used for sneaking, dodge roll, blocking and such. This makes Stamina builds extra effected by the resource changes! The Magic users can sprint and even if they run out of stamina can still defend them self's much more effectively that a stamina use can. This makes it very have in PVP and such to be effective. Because of this it's going to be very hard to find a balance between the two resources.

No. If a magicka character runs out of stam, he gets CC'd and bursted down because he has no stamina to break free.

Unless the magicka character is built towards blocking (example: permablock magDK with 2 sustain sets), magicka characters have to avoid blocking/sprinting/dodge rolling as much as possible

Lirkin

So hmsdragonfly you agree with the resource change.

You talk about one build. Can you do you major damage if you run out of stamina? I can do hardly none as mine are link to stamina.

You can't block ok. I can't block or do hardly any damage.

Joy_Division

Lirkin wrote: »

The Magic users can sprint and even if they run out of stamina can still defend them self's much more effectively that a stamina use can.

If you PvPed as a magicka character, you would not have uttered such nonsense.

Insandros

Agobi wrote: »

I have to say, after having played this new system for a few days....combat has become really boring

Standing there shooting heavy staff attacks 50 % of the time to refill magicka bar is just.....sooooo not fun

Not sure what their actual aim was with this change...but for me its caused me to start looking for something else to fill my playtime

Not sure about your play style and stuff man, but if you'Re having problem with magika you do something wrong, even after the patch, after i'Ve done some changes/adjustment to my build and stats, i'm far from having any issues with magika and on boss fights if i heavy attack 2-3 times tha's a lot for my DPS toons, as for healers, i do it often heavy to get healing boost from passives, so far from having issue, far from heavy attacking 50% of the time, actualy i'm heavy attacking as i was before to avoid being ressourceless, and that's either spell weaving and spamming some stuff, as i was before the patch, i'm just curious, what classe you'Re refering to, and, have you made some adjustment since the patch, or you simply get stuff from the net or predefined build someone created? Because on my side, sustain is far from being an issue, even when spamming BoL on my Templar or spellweaving on my magika sorc as i was before, as for my healing warden, pretty good sustain also. That's al PvE though, i don't PvP besides gettign Warhorn

Magdalina

Zarrakon wrote: »

This issue goes two ways. Characters built on magicka can only break free or roll dodge 2-3 times before they're completely vulnerable. Stamina abilities are also generally cheaper across the board, to account for this sort of thing.

Most people will die when they run out of resources. And this may surprise you, but nothing dies faster than a magicka sorcerer without magicka.

A magicka sorc without stamina?;)

You underrate how important stamina is for avoiding cc/roots. A magicka toon can very scarcely afford to block and if they run OOS against any half capable enemy, they die. You can't exactly reapply shields/heals when cc'd.

I don't have a definitive opinion on the changes yet btw so just throwing it out here. I don't think I'm a fan though.

laksikus

Lirkin wrote: »

So hmsdragonfly you agree with the resource change.

You talk about one build. Can you do you major damage if you run out of stamina? I can do hardly none as mine are link to stamina.

You can't block ok. I can't block or do hardly any damage.

people in nocp camps have been fine for ages. both "elite" players and casuals.
Just adapt. But some sustain gear on and be fine