Damage Done Being Additive Instead of Multiplicative - Executes

LZH

With the new changes made in Morrowind making damage done multipliers like minor berserk, off-balance, etc. additive with CP it's had an unintended? effect of making certain % skills hit significantly weaker than they previously were. A few examples are Impale, Radiant Destruction, Executioner, etc.



Just some numbers with NB Impale for comparison.

Impale above 25%
tooltip - 4756
damage - 3990 (target dummy had 18200 - 10144 = 8056 resist or 16.112% mitigation)

Impale below 25%
tooltip - 4756 * 4 = 19024
damage - 12727


If the 300% was multiplicative (or just a flat amount), Impale should actually be hitting for 3990 * 4 = 15960 when the target is below 25%. Meaning it's only hitting for 12727/15960 = 79.7% of what it realistically should be.


Is this going to be fixed? It doesn't seem fair that MagSorc execute is just a flat amount while NB/Templar executes are % based which means they got heavily nerfed this patch.

Here's a raid parse from the other night, notice how much higher Merciless is hitting than Impale with a max hit of more than double.

imgur.com/HDtD2UM

Waffennacht

Unless you are claiming the base damage for your listed abilities is less than wrath because of the multiplicative part of said ability, I don't see where wrath would be any less affected by changing damage calculations

LZH

Waffennacht wrote: »

Unless you are claiming the base damage for your listed abilities is less than wrath because of the multiplicative part of said ability, I don't see where wrath would be any less affected by changing damage calculations

Wrong thread? I didn't mention wrath anywhere.


EDIT: Sorry thought you meant heavy armor for some reason.


I'm saying that NB execute is ~20% weaker than it should be because ZOS changed their damage calculations. Realistically Impale and Mage's Wrath should be similar in damage, but they aren't even close now. They can keep damage done being additive, but to compensate they should change the Impale tooltip to - deals 4756 damage to the target, deals 15960 when the target is below 25%.

casparian

LZH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Unless you are claiming the base damage for your listed abilities is less than wrath because of the multiplicative part of said ability, I don't see where wrath would be any less affected by changing damage calculations

Wrong thread? I didn't mention wrath anywhere.

They mean Mages' Wrath, the Sorc execute. @Waffennacht the difference is that the formula for Mages' Wrath execute is

deals X damage when enemies fall below 20% health

where X is large enough on its own (usually) to bring an enemy quite close to 0 or kill them outright. Whereas the formula for other executes is

deals Y damage, increased by Z% when enemies fulfill condition W

where Y is not large enough on its own to bring an enemy to 0 health or kill them outright. Executes other than Wrath depend upon the percentage increase, which seems to have (unintentionally?) received a significant nerf, whereas Mages' Wrath does not depend on a percentage increase to do its executing damage.

LZH

casparian wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Unless you are claiming the base damage for your listed abilities is less than wrath because of the multiplicative part of said ability, I don't see where wrath would be any less affected by changing damage calculations

Wrong thread? I didn't mention wrath anywhere.

They mean Mages' Wrath, the Sorc execute. @Waffennacht the difference is that the formula for Mages' Wrath execute is

deals X damage when enemies fall below 20% health

where X is large enough on its own (usually) to bring an enemy quite close to 0 or kill them outright. Whereas the formula for other executes is

deals Y damage, increased by Z% when enemies fulfill condition W

where Y is not large enough on its own to bring an enemy to 0 health or kill them outright. Executes other than Wrath depend upon the percentage increase, which seems to have (unintentionally?) received a significant nerf, whereas Mages' Wrath does not depend on a percentage increase to do its executing damage.

Yup, exactly. Just change some of the tooltip wording/calculation so that literally every execute besides mages' wrath doesn't suck. Not to mention mages' wrath is already sick because of the 4 second timer on it, no need for it to be the highest damaging one as well.

Rohamad_Ali

I think impale is bugged but haven't had opportunity to test . The stam morph seems ok .

There was something weird in the patch notes from TC too about some mag ability resistance scaling off physical dmg in stead of Majic resist but I don't remember which it was .

Waffennacht

Well first off, NBs can get buffs imo

Second. In order to agree or disagree I would have to know, that (example executioner) with the same starting base as wrath (so tooltip for both are at 4k base example) then show me how much less damage executioner does at 20% than wrath.

So you need two builds, one magicka one Stam. You need their stats to equal the same baseline: HOWEVER wrath being a class ability scales to magicka and executioner scales to weapon damage (more so than each other's counter part) the stats are gonna be wonky.

Anyway, then you need an opponent at 20% health, and then show how the executioner's total damage is less than wrath.

Convoluted post I know but I think you get the idea

LZH

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think impale is bugged but haven't had opportunity to test . The stam morph seems ok .

There was something weird in the patch notes from TC too about some mag ability resistance scaling off physical dmg in stead of Majic resist but I don't remember which it was .

I already tested that. Impale is properly scaling off spell resistance.

Rohamad_Ali

LZH wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think impale is bugged but haven't had opportunity to test . The stam morph seems ok .

There was something weird in the patch notes from TC too about some mag ability resistance scaling off physical dmg in stead of Majic resist but I don't remember which it was .

I already tested that. Impale is properly scaling off spell resistance.

Ok good . But you are saying the multiplier is not working correct ?

LZH

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think impale is bugged but haven't had opportunity to test . The stam morph seems ok .

There was something weird in the patch notes from TC too about some mag ability resistance scaling off physical dmg in stead of Majic resist but I don't remember which it was .

I already tested that. Impale is properly scaling off spell resistance.

Ok good . But you are saying the multiplier is not working correct ?

Yes. The problem is that anything that says 'increases your damage done by x%' is now additive with CP instead of multiplicative.


I'm assuming this was done to lower the ceiling DPS achievable by using things like off-balance, minor vulnerability, minor berserk, etc. but it ended up screwing with Impale as well as other skills with % multipliers.

My solution was to make the tooltip theme for Impale the same as Mages' Wrath, because then it will maintain it's intended damage.

MisterBigglesworth

LOL yeah change the tooltip to "Deals an extra 219% damage..." and suddenly everything makes sense.

Lokov

LZH wrote: »

With the new changes made in Morrowind making damage done multipliers like minor berserk, minor vulnerability, off-balance, etc. additive with CP it's had an unintended? effect of making certain % skills hit significantly weaker than they previously were. A few examples are Impale, Radiant Destruction, Executioner, etc.



Just some numbers with NB Impale for comparison.

Impale above 25%
tooltip - 4756
damage - 3990 (target dummy had 18200 - 10144 = 8056 resist or 16.112% mitigation)

Impale below 25%
tooltip - 4756 * 4 = 19024
damage - 12727


If the 300% was multiplicative (or just a flat amount), Impale should actually be hitting for 3990 * 4 = 15960 when the target is below 25%. Meaning it's only hitting for 12727/15960 = 79.7% of what it realistically should be.


Is this going to be fixed? It doesn't seem fair that MagSorc execute is just a flat amount while NB/Templar executes are % based which means they got heavily nerfed this patch.

Here's a raid parse from the other night, notice how much higher Merciless is hitting than Impale with a max hit of more than double.

imgur.com/HDtD2UM

This game is totally broken in almost all aspects, and they are nothing gonna do about it, cuz they donno how to fix the things they have done, don't waste your time ))

LZH

Waffennacht wrote: »

Well first off, NBs can get buffs imo

Second. In order to agree or disagree I would have to know, that (example executioner) with the same starting base as wrath (so tooltip for both are at 4k base example) then show me how much less damage executioner does at 20% than wrath.

So you need two builds, one magicka one Stam. You need their stats to equal the same baseline: HOWEVER wrath being a class ability scales to magicka and executioner scales to weapon damage (more so than each other's counter part) the stats are gonna be wonky.

Anyway, then you need an opponent at 20% health, and then show how the executioner's total damage is less than wrath.

Convoluted post I know but I think you get the idea

I literally just showed that Impale is hitting 20% weaker than Impale should be hitting. Including Mages' Wrath in my post is to give an example of how tooltips of executes should be worded to fix the problem. This post isn't about balance between executes, it's about ZOS's new damage calculation messing up certain execute scaling.

LZH

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

LOL yeah change the tooltip to "Deals an extra 219% damage..." and suddenly everything makes sense.

That'd be one way to do it. #TruthInAdvertising

Waffennacht

Outside of comparisons made to wrath, what evidence do you have that the current theme of additive rather than multiplicative is not intended?

LZH

Waffennacht wrote: »

Outside of comparisons made to wrath, what evidence do you have that the current theme of additive rather than multiplicative is not intended?

Because it doesn't make any sense? It would've been nice for ZOS to expand on their change to additive instead of multiplicative (LOL dev comments) but I'm willing to bet it was to reduce the impact of raid buffs, not to nerf skills that weren't overperforming.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

@LZH thank you for your discovery and addressing the fact that this affects the templar execute as well.

GreenSoup2HoT

I honestly dont really understand your calculations.

LZH

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I honestly dont really understand your calculations.

I wasn't going to put in numbers at first and then I rushed when I did them, but the main point is that Impale (and I'm assuming other skills with similar wording) are hitting significantly weaker since Morrowind dropped due to the new damage calculation (making % damage done additive instead of multiplicative) implemented by ZOS. I'm assuming it is unintended, because none of the skills that it affects could even be considered as over-performing.

LiquidPony

This is just a hidden nerf to all non-Sorcs to compensate for the minor Frag and Volatile Familiar nerfs.

Erynyes

it was reported on pts, no dev response, they been extremely silent in the last 2 weeks

LZH

Erynyes wrote: »

it was reported on pts, no dev response, they been extremely silent in the last 2 weeks

I don't think they read a single thing on the PTS forums.

I didn't realize it was already reported. Now I feel even less hopeful that it will be fixed before the next major update. What a joke.

Narvuntien

LZH wrote: »

Erynyes wrote: »

it was reported on pts, no dev response, they been extremely silent in the last 2 weeks

I don't think they read a single thing on the PTS forums.

I didn't realize it was already reported. Now I feel even less hopeful that it will be fixed before the next major update. What a joke.

They definately read the PTS forums they have made changes as a result of posts there.

I am not sure if it got buried or they just didn't decide how to fix it or can't fix it quickly enough for 3.05.

Erynyes

Narvuntien wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Erynyes wrote: »

it was reported on pts, no dev response, they been extremely silent in the last 2 weeks

I don't think they read a single thing on the PTS forums.

I didn't realize it was already reported. Now I feel even less hopeful that it will be fixed before the next major update. What a joke.

They definately read the PTS forums they have made changes as a result of posts there.

I am not sure if it got buried or they just didn't decide how to fix it or can't fix it quickly enough for 3.05.

yeah they read what they want, theres so many thing that were reported and never got a fix or any dev tag, that the average guy like me figured they really don`t give a crap about feedback/ or are overwhelmed by their own incompetence, just my 2 cent

casparian

Waffennacht wrote: »

Outside of comparisons made to wrath, what evidence do you have that the current theme of additive rather than multiplicative is not intended?

If it was intended, it should have been communicated. For one thing, it's a significant nerf. Imagine if the Homestead Radiant Destruction nerf had not been mentioned in the patch notes. This is that big. For another, it flies in the face of one of the devs' stated goals: bringing magsorc DPS in line with other classes' DPS. This change gives magsorcs the best execute in the game in both PVP and PVE, and its existence has yet even to be acknowledged by the devs.

LZH

Narvuntien wrote: »

LZH wrote: »

Erynyes wrote: »

it was reported on pts, no dev response, they been extremely silent in the last 2 weeks

I don't think they read a single thing on the PTS forums.

I didn't realize it was already reported. Now I feel even less hopeful that it will be fixed before the next major update. What a joke.

They definately read the PTS forums they have made changes as a result of posts there.

I am not sure if it got buried or they just didn't decide how to fix it or can't fix it quickly enough for 3.05.

This combined with the fact that apparently the heavy-attack changes were very poorly implemented shows that the game was NOT ready for early release. I'm just more worried that they probably won't fix either of these bugs in an incremental update and we'll have to wait until August.

Gilliamtherogue

Hey @LZH I've been tinkering around with this trying to find the root cause. Can I ask how your Blue CP was spent? I too am missing almost 20% of the expected damage from my execute, and I'm trying to narrow down potential candidates to help speed this up if possible.

Tested by applying Minor Berserk and the damage discrepancy went from 19.83% missing to 22.9% missing. Definitely something up with % amps interacting this patch.

Gilliamtherogue

Waffennacht wrote: »

Outside of comparisons made to wrath, what evidence do you have that the current theme of additive rather than multiplicative is not intended?

The reason Wrath is not affected by this is because Wrath's bonus execute is a separate entity, unbound by a base value amped to a %. This is applying to all % amplifications within abilities, it's not just executes.

WhiteMage

Are we perhaps looking at a changed modifier here? Iirc, pre-morrowind that +300% meant 4x multiplier. That would be additive with minor berserk so multiply it 4.08 instead. Now it may be entirely separate and multiplicative, so instead you'd be multiplying by 3 and then further by 1.08.

3*1.08=3.24

3.24/4.08=0.7941

Maybe?

Gilliamtherogue

I actually had an idea when talking about the fixed HRC cheese from the top boss. In the patch Zenimax stated that Lightning Staves' split damage from Tri-Focus will no longer be affected by % amplifications, so that the splash damage of the Heavy Attack wouldn't be able to deal unintended amounts of damage.

This could very likely be the same issue, where instead of applying it to the Lightning Attack's split damage only, they applied it to all skills as a time saver or mistake, which has severe consequences with other abilities.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Can we get some acknowledgement on this bug with abilities having built in % amplifications not getting their proper power bumps?

idk

Ip

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I actually had an idea when talking about the fixed HRC cheese from the top boss. In the patch Zenimax stated that Lightning Staves' split damage from Tri-Focus will no longer be affected by % amplifications, so that the splash damage of the Heavy Attack wouldn't be able to deal unintended amounts of damage.

This could very likely be the same issue, where instead of applying it to the Lightning Attack's split damage only, they applied it to all skills as a time saver or mistake, which has severe consequences with other abilities.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Can we get some acknowledgement on this bug with abilities having built in % amplifications not getting their proper power bumps?

This would make sense. I have seen, from how various aspects of the game has behaved over 32+ years that Zos tends to group much together in their database.

Those that played any sort of beta probably recall being dismounted when going through an arch in the open world. It was grouped with doors into structures and the game considered that we were going inside something. This was changed either before launch or soon afterwards with a few exceptions.

This has also been evident in other aspects. Many of us can recall seeing a basket of fruit of vegies and looting something very different that what we saw. They changed this a year or two ago.

Zos probably uses the same broad grouping for aspects that you have pointed out. It is a simple and easy way for setting up the game but it does have unintended consequences.