Enough with the light/heavy attack junk. Let me be a real Mage.

Code2501

Where ESO 'Magicka' is now is so far removed from real Elder Scrolls game I don't think it even warrants the ES of its title.
Forcing Tamriel mages to run around squirting junk out of staffs to be effective feels wrong as a player of Elder Scrolls games since Arena.
Regardless of my class template, in an ES game I should be able to conjure elementals while hurling flame from my fingertips and enraging the enemies to attack each other.
In a true ES game staves are for the weak willed whom don't have the skill and strength to rend the Magicka from Aetherius and twist it to their will.
A true ES battle-mage would be conjuring Daedric weapons and armor while calling lightning from the skies (rather than their sticks) to smite their foes.
The mages guild in an ES game is a force of knowledge, able to help you learn dozens of common spells from masters and even create your own. That you get at most 6 spells from the mages guild is a joke.

Its time to make Magicka great again, and quit with the contradictory game design where you:

ZOS SAY -

• Play the game how you want.
• Play fast paced combat without skill cool-downs.
• We want to encourage diversity.

But, I SEE -

• As long as your light or heavy attacking, and we expect you to cancel the animations we put into the game or your not doing it right.
• Except where we introduce artificial cool-downs by making 'spells' only trigger after a set number of weapon attacks.
• Our definition of 'Diversity' is mostly restricting everyone to a core set of 'spells' that come with their class plus your choice of weapon skills or 'spells' that fail to cover even half of the known schools of magic.

I'd love ESO to make good on the talk, give me fast paced combat without artificial cool-downs. Let me be a finger wiggler rather than a shaft gripper. Give me REAL flexibility to actually be diverse, If I want to play a master illusionist with a penchant for ice traps or a mystic monk with alteration buffs and fists of steel I should be able to. That's what diversity looks like.

Finally, If you think your unable to make Magicka great again please just give us spell crafting and watch your player base explode with diversity. You think Morrowind is a nostalgia trip? The island is nothing compared to the nostalgia from flexible spells like Icarian Flight.
FYI, most of what I said above could equally apply to skills, though the ES history is obviously different.

pieratsos

You can conjure daedric armor and call lightning from the skies. Its called magicka sorcerer and you dont need a stick to do it.

leepalmer95

Exactly @pieratsos Got it right, play a sorcerer.

You don't need a staff deal good damage.

Violynne

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You don't need a staff deal good damage.

Yes you do. You can't bar any skills without a weapon, even if you never intend to use it.

Otherwise, the majority of us would only have one weapon and two bars of skills.

Omnipresent

ya sorc class skills are crazy, you can just rock the staff for looks

burglar

Violynne wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You don't need a staff deal good damage.

Yes you do. You can't bar any skills without a weapon, even if you never intend to use it.

Otherwise, the majority of us would only have one weapon and two bars of skills.

Overload!

I know... I know... :P

Omnipresent

with this whole sustain thing now you prolly have to throw in a heavy attack once in a while now, that might be tough

Code2501

The point I must have ineptly tried to make is that I should be able to play a free mage not a pre-made sorcerer.
If I want a mage that shoots lightning and can go invisible and conjure a big daedric sword and summon an ice atronach which class do I play again... thats diversity. Thats the magic of Elder Scrolls. Its missing from ESO.

Avran_Sylt

Your idea died pretty much as soon as the idea for spell-crafting did.

leepalmer95

Code2501 wrote: »

The point I must have ineptly tried to make is that I should be able to play a free mage not a pre-made sorcerer.
If I want a mage that shoots lightning and can go invisible and conjure a big daedric sword and summon an ice atronach which class do I play again... thats diversity. Thats the magic of Elder Scrolls. Its missing from ESO.

Thats called Single Player elder scrolls and not eso the mmo.

Elddar

Code2501 wrote: »

The point I must have ineptly tried to make is that I should be able to play a free mage not a pre-made sorcerer.
If I want a mage that shoots lightning and can go invisible and conjure a big daedric sword and summon an ice atronach which class do I play again... thats diversity. Thats the magic of Elder Scrolls. Its missing from ESO.

It is not Skyrim. You are free to go back and play Skyrim if you insist on everything being just like Skyrim.

But the ESO Sorcerer comes very close to your criteria. It can:

1. Shoot lightning from his/her fingers
2. Can sneak and/or use vanish potions (this is the closest to invisibility that is in the game.
3. While there are no summoned weapons in the game, the Sorcerer can use large, two-handed magic swords.
4. And you can indeed summon an Ice Atronach

Jollygoodusername

Elddar wrote: »

Code2501 wrote: »

The point I must have ineptly tried to make is that I should be able to play a free mage not a pre-made sorcerer.
If I want a mage that shoots lightning and can go invisible and conjure a big daedric sword and summon an ice atronach which class do I play again... thats diversity. Thats the magic of Elder Scrolls. Its missing from ESO.

It is not Skyrim. You are free to go back and play Skyrim if you insist on everything being just like Skyrim.

But the ESO Sorcerer comes very close to your criteria. It can:

1. Shoot lightning from his/her fingers
2. Can sneak and/or use vanish potions (this is the closest to invisibility that is in the game.
3. While there are no summoned weapons in the game, the Sorcerer can use large, two-handed magic swords.
4. And you can indeed summon an Ice Atronach

We all know ESO ISN'T Skyrim. However it does have ELDER SCROLLS in the freakin title. This comes with an exceptionally large lore, a massive D&D amount of classes and known skills/abilities. You completely missed the OP's point and defaulted to being a condescending n'wah.

I agree with Code2501 on this topic entirely, but seeing how inept the execution of classes and skills were implemented in the first place, I don't expect any improvements to be made.

Elddar

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

Elddar wrote: »

Code2501 wrote: »

The point I must have ineptly tried to make is that I should be able to play a free mage not a pre-made sorcerer.
If I want a mage that shoots lightning and can go invisible and conjure a big daedric sword and summon an ice atronach which class do I play again... thats diversity. Thats the magic of Elder Scrolls. Its missing from ESO.

It is not Skyrim. You are free to go back and play Skyrim if you insist on everything being just like Skyrim.

But the ESO Sorcerer comes very close to your criteria. It can:

1. Shoot lightning from his/her fingers
2. Can sneak and/or use vanish potions (this is the closest to invisibility that is in the game.
3. While there are no summoned weapons in the game, the Sorcerer can use large, two-handed magic swords.
4. And you can indeed summon an Ice Atronach

We all know ESO ISN'T Skyrim. However it does have ELDER SCROLLS in the freakin title. This comes with an exceptionally large lore, a massive D&D amount of classes and known skills/abilities. You completely missed the OP's point and defaulted to being a condescending n'wah.

I agree with Code2501 on this topic entirely, but seeing how inept the execution of classes and skills were implemented in the first place, I don't expect any improvements to be made.

Elder Scrolls: Arena has ELDER SCROLLS in the freakin title and it cannot do any of these things.

I was not be condescending at all and you completely missed my point. Every Elder Scrolls game has things that are unique which do not work the same or are missing and/or adding features.

My point to the OP was that you can come very close to things that were being asked for, but like every ES title, this one is unique and is adapted to be a multiplayer MMO. This information was not hidden in any way and anyone should have been able to read about the differences before purchasing.

LMar

Are you sure you are comparing the previous ES games well? Morrowind didn't have magicka regen unless you rested, In Oblivion, you needed high willpower to regen magicka faster (and you often resorted to weapon attacks till your magicka regened, parly because the spells you made were quite expensive :P) and Skyrim... Well.. Skyrim's magick system was rather limited and even as a High Elf I had to activate my racial to fully be able to have enough magicka to fight lots of mobs.

In fact ESO has way more spells than Skyrim ever did :P

Betsararie

In all fairness we do call lightning from the sky.

It's called liquid lightning/destro ulti

AcadianPaladin

After playing Oblivion and Skyrim for over 4000 hours each, I am darn glad that Zenimax finally did something that Bethesda could never do - make staves fun and effective. Staves were jokes in earlier TES games, now they are awesome. I'm having more fun with a pure magsorc in ESO than I ever did with pure mages in earlier TES games. Now that said, I readily admit that ESO mages don't have have quite the depth to go hybrid / odd mixes like earlier games. I tribute that to the harsh split between mag and stam in ESO. Since many of the sorc abilities scale off magicka only, it limits what can be done as far as a mystic archer for example. And depth of magicka options also limits such things as illusion mages.

Anyway, my point was that I love ESO staves!

Code2501

Elddar wrote: »

Code2501 wrote: »

The point I must have ineptly tried to make is that I should be able to play a free mage not a pre-made sorcerer.
If I want a mage that shoots lightning and can go invisible and conjure a big daedric sword and summon an ice atronach which class do I play again... thats diversity. Thats the magic of Elder Scrolls. Its missing from ESO.

It is not Skyrim. You are free to go back and play Skyrim if you insist on everything being just like Skyrim.

Ironically Skyrim was furthest from my mind. I've been playing Elder scrolls games for over 30 years. I still have my origional box for Arena. I still remember the political macinations of Daggerfall. I'm not commenting from a naive perspective of expecting a multiplayer Skyrim. I'm commenting from the perspective of a seasoned gamer with decades experience in Tamriel and I'm simply reminding ZOS of part of what made Elder Scrolls into the franchise it is today from the perspective of someone who was there from the beginning.

Waffennacht

It's an MMO, if you truly played as you wished​, you'd be an unstoppable, daedric summoning, flying dragons, killing players with a simple glare, OP imbalanced mess of a @#$_ show that no one would ever play

mb10

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

After playing Oblivion and Skyrim for over 4000 hours each, I am darn glad that Zenimax finally did something that Bethesda could never do - make staves fun and effective. Staves were jokes in earlier TES games, now they are awesome. I'm having more fun with a pure magsorc in ESO than I ever did with pure mages in earlier TES games. Now that said, I readily admit that ESO mages don't have have quite the depth to go hybrid / odd mixes like earlier games. I tribute that to the harsh split between mag and stam in ESO. Since many of the sorc abilities scale off magicka only, it limits what can be done as far as a mystic archer for example. And depth of magicka options also limits such things as illusion mages.

Anyway, my point was that I love ESO staves!

fun and effective?
Loool its the same animation every single time, does the same damage and there is absolutely nothig "fun" about light and heavy attacks at all

Betsararie

The funny thing is for ES vets Skyrim wasn't even good. lol

They gutted the entire game and ruined the skill/progression system for the noobs and oversimplified to the point that classes didn't even have any meaningful effect.

I hate Skyrim and I hated it.

Oblivion and Morrowind were sooo much better. So much better.

Code2501

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's an MMO, if you truly played as you wished​, you'd be an unstoppable, daedric summoning, flying dragons, killing players with a simple glare, OP imbalanced mess of a @#$_ show that no one would ever play

I disagree. That perspective is borne from one with an expectation that diversity cannot be ballanced at all.

Thealteregoroman

Kikke

It's Elder Scrolls Online, made by ZeniMax.
What you want to play is The Elder Scrolls, made by Bethesda.

Combat has been somewhat identical in the The elder scrolls series from bethesda,
While ZeniMax studios wanted to borrow the TES lore and landmass for it's Elder Scrolls Online.

So, were does this leave us? A mmo with a backstory and a landmass many players know and ejnoy.

If you want Bethesda's Elder scrolls universe.. play those games.
if you want ZeniMax's Elder scrolls universe... play this game.

Ihatenightblades

Code2501 wrote: »

Where ESO 'Magicka' is now is so far removed from real Elder Scrolls game I don't think it even warrants the ES of its title.
Forcing Tamriel mages to run around squirting junk out of staffs to be effective feels wrong as a player of Elder Scrolls games since Arena.
Regardless of my class template, in an ES game I should be able to conjure elementals while hurling flame from my fingertips and enraging the enemies to attack each other.
In a true ES game staves are for the weak willed whom don't have the skill and strength to rend the Magicka from Aetherius and twist it to their will.
A true ES battle-mage would be conjuring Daedric weapons and armor while calling lightning from the skies (rather than their sticks) to smite their foes.
The mages guild in an ES game is a force of knowledge, able to help you learn dozens of common spells from masters and even create your own. That you get at most 6 spells from the mages guild is a joke.

Its time to make Magicka great again, and quit with the contradictory game design where you:

ZOS SAY -

• Play the game how you want.
• Play fast paced combat without skill cool-downs.
• We want to encourage diversity.

But, I SEE -

• As long as your light or heavy attacking, and we expect you to cancel the animations we put into the game or your not doing it right.
• Except where we introduce artificial cool-downs by making 'spells' only trigger after a set number of weapon attacks.
• Our definition of 'Diversity' is mostly restricting everyone to a core set of 'spells' that come with their class plus your choice of weapon skills or 'spells' that fail to cover even half of the known schools of magic.

I'd love ESO to make good on the talk, give me fast paced combat without artificial cool-downs. Let me be a finger wiggler rather than a shaft gripper. Give me REAL flexibility to actually be diverse, If I want to play a master illusionist with a penchant for ice traps or a mystic monk with alteration buffs and fists of steel I should be able to. That's what diversity looks like.

Finally, If you think your unable to make Magicka great again please just give us spell crafting and watch your player base explode with diversity. You think Morrowind is a nostalgia trip? The island is nothing compared to the nostalgia from flexible spells like Icarian Flight.
FYI, most of what I said above could equally apply to skills, though the ES history is obviously different.

You dont have to heavy attack or light attack on any class as long as you got the right gear on and cp setup and rotation abilities you should be able to hit 30k DPS without weaving.

Code2501

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

Code2501 wrote: »

Where ESO 'Magicka' is now is so far removed from real Elder Scrolls game I don't think it even warrants the ES of its title.
Forcing Tamriel mages to run around squirting junk out of staffs to be effective feels wrong as a player of Elder Scrolls games since Arena.
Regardless of my class template, in an ES game I should be able to conjure elementals while hurling flame from my fingertips and enraging the enemies to attack each other.
In a true ES game staves are for the weak willed whom don't have the skill and strength to rend the Magicka from Aetherius and twist it to their will.
A true ES battle-mage would be conjuring Daedric weapons and armor while calling lightning from the skies (rather than their sticks) to smite their foes.
The mages guild in an ES game is a force of knowledge, able to help you learn dozens of common spells from masters and even create your own. That you get at most 6 spells from the mages guild is a joke.

Its time to make Magicka great again, and quit with the contradictory game design where you:

ZOS SAY -

• Play the game how you want.
• Play fast paced combat without skill cool-downs.
• We want to encourage diversity.

But, I SEE -

• As long as your light or heavy attacking, and we expect you to cancel the animations we put into the game or your not doing it right.
• Except where we introduce artificial cool-downs by making 'spells' only trigger after a set number of weapon attacks.
• Our definition of 'Diversity' is mostly restricting everyone to a core set of 'spells' that come with their class plus your choice of weapon skills or 'spells' that fail to cover even half of the known schools of magic.

I'd love ESO to make good on the talk, give me fast paced combat without artificial cool-downs. Let me be a finger wiggler rather than a shaft gripper. Give me REAL flexibility to actually be diverse, If I want to play a master illusionist with a penchant for ice traps or a mystic monk with alteration buffs and fists of steel I should be able to. That's what diversity looks like.

Finally, If you think your unable to make Magicka great again please just give us spell crafting and watch your player base explode with diversity. You think Morrowind is a nostalgia trip? The island is nothing compared to the nostalgia from flexible spells like Icarian Flight.
FYI, most of what I said above could equally apply to skills, though the ES history is obviously different.

You dont have to heavy attack or light attack on any class as long as you got the right gear on and cp setup and rotation abilities you should be able to hit 30k DPS without weaving.

There are actually several 'spells' that require light or heavy attacks to function. So yes you do have to weapon attack if you plan to use those spells. If you know a way to consistently hit 30k dps without any weapon attacks please share that niche spec.
Thst said I'm less concerned with special builds for trial dps than I am with mage diversity on the whole.

Lavennin

Yes I completely agree. This is the reason I never play mage class in MMOs - they have a set of premade skills (which use somewhat magical graphics) and nothing else. Nothing awesome about learning those spells in the first place. No creative use of spells, no diverse combos, no combat magic vs mundane spells, no nothing. I'd actually feel worse if I play these fake mages, so I usually just roll an assassin or something.

ESO sorcs or any typical magicka build feel just like mage/sorcerer/warlock in WoW. Nothing magey about them.

But I don't think they'll change the system. They made that decision to make a yet-another-MMO when it comes to magic, long ago.

max_only

Sorcs. Always looking for snip to complain about.

Draqone

Lavennin wrote: »

They made that decision to make a yet-another-MMO when it comes to magic, long ago.

There are systems that work in single player that can not work in an MMO.

Not only because of technical limitations like latency but also because you simply can't allow everyone to do everything without affecting gameplay. And fortunately, ESO devs decided that gameplay is important.

colig

I like the current system with staves as weapons more than what Skyrim or Morrowind had. Staves were pretty limited use items in Skyrim of which only the Wabbajack had any real lasting value to me. I even made a character that almost entirely used the Wabbajack as a weapon.

idk

Another misunderstanding of "Play the game as you want".

Lavennin

Draqone wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

They made that decision to make a yet-another-MMO when it comes to magic, long ago.

There are systems that work in single player that can not work in an MMO.

Not only because of technical limitations like latency but also because you simply can't allow everyone to do everything without affecting gameplay. And fortunately, ESO devs decided that gameplay is important.

@Draqone
While I do agree with you on MMO/single player game should be approached differently, I find it hard to simply assume that designing a more immersive, diverse spellcasting system automatically equals allowing everyone to do everything (and also somehow ruining gameplay, which does not even make any sense.)

It's a harder design choice than imitating existing MMO mechanics, sure. But some devs would have taken the risk. And with skill and experience, it's possible to find a good balance of things.

That is the art of video game design. Balance, not extremes.