An honest question about Sorcs and nerfs... and some char advice (Long but I'd appreceate the help)

chancefate81_ESO

I know there are so many threads on this spread all over, but I just wanted to start my own thread and ask a simple question.

Why do so many people say that Sorcs/Sorcs with pets are overpowered?

Let me just give my experience for context. I was part of the original beta, played for a long time, took a break and then returned after the One Tamriel update. Then a lil while later I got the housing update.

So I stated a brand new Sorc because that's always been my favorite kind of class to play in any game. I loved the idea of pets and built up a cool pet sorc... and by the time I'd gotten to a level where I could be doing group or vet dungeons I would be kicked right away because I used a pet (one time a guy even said out loud in group chat, "Can we get rid of the pet guy?").

I did not feel overpowered. I am now in the mid 400s (maybe later 400s?) and while I admit I feel more confident in normal battles and dungeons, I certainly don't feel overpowered in Vet dungeons. I was clueless about how to put together the right kind of armor to get the effects I wanted. It always seemed like someone else was doing better and no matter how hard I tried, at ANY level, everyone always says I need to be doing more DPS... but also I need to not die because of my health.

So yeah... so sum things up these are my two main things...

Tldr:

Are Sorcs really that overpowered? Am I just not trying hard enough to have the right gear and weapons slotted? (As a sub question, when did pets go from something that got you kicked to something everyone said made you so OP it was unfair).

Secondly...

If it's just a case of me not using the right cookie cutter spells/armor/etc... then wouldn't it be kinda nice to have a way you could use skills that you think are FUN to use and not use skills just because someone did the math and found out you can 1.2% more DPS by using <insert 100% rigid set of skills/armor here?>

I can't call myself a hardcore player because I don't care about being competitive in PvP and being first on the leader boards... but I do play at least 3 hours a day min. and often more on the weekends and I just feel that I'd like to have fun.

Thanks for anyone who read all that. Not trying to start a war about this as I know it's sensitive topic, but I'd honestly like to know why there is suddenly all the sorc hate and calls for us being nerfed... when I find myself struggling just as much as anyone at times in vet dungeons and the like.


My build and char basics
==============================
Level: 450
Boon: The Thief
Stats: 64 mags, 0, 0.

Champ Points:
The Tower - 18 Magician
The Lover - 100 Archanist. 27 Healthy

65 Elfporn. 80 - Elemental Expert

22 Elemental Defender. 23 Hardy. 100 Light Armor Focus Weapon: Lightning staff of Julianis
Armor: Julianis
Monster head and shoulders: Ice heart (Gives me a damage shield at almost all times, vasting helping my health/survivability)
Necklace/Rings: Willpower

Skill bar 1: *Crystal Fragments
*Inner Light
*Force Pulse
*Liquid Lightning (Usually. Sometimes Power Surge to help me stay alive)
*Power Surge

Ult:
*Thunderous Rage almost always. Fantastic DPS if the baddies stay still.
*Storm Attreoch. Better for when there is one main boss but they move around too much.
*Overload. I've been experimenting with this more, but only once in a while.


Skill bar 2:
I have a hard time keeping up with two skill bars (something I know I need to get better at), so I'm working on things... thinking of setting it up for pets.

dpencil1

Pets need to be slotted on both bars. The fact that you don't know this or have a good control over juggling both ability bars shows that you're in no position to understand why top tier end game players would call Sorc OP.

That's not a judgement against you. Play the way you want and don't worry about it. The majority of the questing content in the game can be completed with one skill bar if that's what you want to do. PvP, group dungeons, trials, these require more out of a player. It's not about being cookie cutter either. Its about understanding what makes you effective and what doesn't.

darthsithis

actually cp you NEED 75 thaumaturge, rest into elemental expet then elfborn.

75 thaum opens off balance perk. lightning Woe does off balance to enemies. this stacks with concussion, granting more damage to them. Thaum also affects strength of deadric prey and scamps ability, making it all hit hard when you add in liquid lightning, pulse, and ilambris. The destro ulti is longer with lightning staff, but sorcs get bonus to lightning damage making it as good as the fire staff one but longer.

good luck!

CaptainBeerDude

Slot a summoning skill on both bars to get a health boost, twilight to heal, scamp to damage, armour for stat boost. Using more sorc abilities will give a damage boost.
Also, 65 in elfporn? Does that give good boosts..?

Edit: overload can give you a third bar, but won't be helpful until you can bar swap comfortably.

MrBeatDown_

chancefate81_ESO wrote: »

I can't call myself a hardcore player because I don't care about being competitive in PvP and being first on the leader boards... but I do play at least 3 hours a day min. and often more on the weekends and I just feel that I'd like to have fun.

That's why you don't understand why so many people are calling them OP. In the pve environment with the play the way you want to motto, as a casual player that doesnt care about competitive pvp, Then I guess I can understand why you don't understand why there OP. I think most of the devs that work on class balance for this game feel the same way you do and don't understand the pvp mechanics of the game and what makes them so overpowered in cyrodiil. AND GUESS WHAT, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT FOR CASUAL PVE PLAYERS.

But, This team specifically said they will not separate the way they balance this games PVE from PVP. So they basically have no way to balance the game without making some things OP and others weak for each instance of the game. That was the dev's decision, whether it be lack of manpower, being lazy or simply just don't understand the 2 different categories of the games mechanics, is anyones guess at this point. So its crippling to both audiences of the game. Again, that was there hardline choice to do this.

I personally feel that the PVE portion of this game should be played how ever you want too without it being to difficult to play. But with PvP, Its all about min/maxing fine tuning a character to reach maximum potential for all abilities, skills, damage, etc.

They really need to separate the Pve balance from the PvP balance of the game to give it the original ESO feel of a game when questing. As it stands now, they have destroyed both aspects of the game. And who ever's bright idea it was to make VMA so difficult when it first came out, should have been let go from the company. That was a horrible decision that left a bad stain on the PVE portion of this game to appease a very few and select elitist that people are still complaining about to this very day.

Anyways, you will probably never understand why the sorc is OP since your just casually playing eso anyway, and in my opinion it really shouldn't effect your playstyle anyway. Just have fun and enjoy it. You don't need to min max for pve exploring anyway.

Magdalina

Hmm where to start. (Warning: I'm probably going to beat your wall of text )

Pets have been...a very suboptimal choice for group content(they have always been great for soloing) for the longest time. They take 2 slots each, they can die at the most unexpected moment possible, they're, let's be honet, not very bright(I swear there's a line in code somewhere telling the Familiar to choose the furthest ranged ad possible and go attack it rather than aoe the nicely stacked melee ads, then if I don't notice it he'll happily cc the a with his pulse and make it immune to being chained in.....), they were passive toggles which don't make for very fun playstyle, they stole players' buffs and taunt and on top of all that they did very meh damage...Zenimax has been pushing for pets to be viable for a while though and some of their latest tries frankly overbuffed it(one of them at least).

What's changed to make them viable? They now have more health, more armor/spell resist and on top of that are 90% immune to aoe attacks. This means that while pets still lack brains to get out of red they can stand in it and never die, pretty much. They no longer steal player buffs, heals or taunt(at least to the best of my knowledge they don't), this was a big one. They are no longer a dumb passive toggle but have an active skill associated with them. The biggest issue is just one of the pet morphs - Familiar one. His damage is insanely strong. It's already very high on its own, then we have Daedric Prey which buffs pets' damage and Necropotence set which gives you 4k for having a pet out. With how sturdy pets are now you can (and honestly, you should, that dps is just too good to pass up on) have a pet up 100% of time - so 100% 4k magicka buff, this is major. Not only does this buff pet, this buffs all of your attacks. All together this has created a possibility for really high damage output that other classes literally cannot achieve. Hence the nerfs. They are needed and if they just bring Familiar's damage in line, it won't ruin the class. Furthermore, you don't appear to be using the Familiar so you likely won't even notice it

On to your question...you don't need to use BiS gear for the "1.2% dps advantage"(it is higher btw but it's not THAT major that you cannot complete the content without it), but with the way game works currently you have to make a...sensible build at least. For example hybrids are kind of...not sensible. Well with Pelinal's you can kind of make a viable one but it will still be insanely hard and won't outshine pure magicka/stamina dps. Either way, you're already using Julianos and Willpower which is a stellar choice so we got that covered:) I'd suggest Illambris over Iceheart, it's a stronger dps choice. For a damage shield you can just use Hardened Ward/Annulment when needed, on a magicka build that should be 15-20k shield at the least(my Hardened is 24k but I have 600 cp. Annulm is I think 18k).

Onto cp - well really a lot of things will change in Morrowind so hard to say what will be optimal for cp yet. However I think Thaumaturge will still be staying a big one - you want 75 points in that so you boost your dots AND unlock that awesome passive that increases your damage to off balanced targets(which is actually important because Lightning wall of elements sets enemies off balance, creating really awesome synergy with this passive).

Onto skills...well...a second bar definitely would help a lot Once again with Morrowind right around the corner it might change, but I don't think the core princuple will. The core principle of doing damage in ESO as it is now is laying down your DoTs(Damage over Time such as Liquid for example), then just spamming a filling skill weaved with light attacks until you have to renew the DoTs. For a sorc, your DoTs would be Liquid(which you are already using, good), Wall of Elements(you really want to use that, it's great. Plus keep in mind if you apply lightning Wall of ele you will proc that cp passive. In perfect world it's the healer applying lightning WoE because fire one does more damage on its own but the world is usually not perfect), Curse(even if you are not a pet build. I use Haunting curse, it's solid dps. Only issue is the timer is a bit weiord, it's ~13 seconds for both exposions which is a lot of time but because all the other DoTs last 8-10 seconds it's easy to forget to refresh it. Plus unlike "proper" DoT, Curse ticks once at the end of its timer, not over its full course so if you refresh it too early you miss out on second explosion and lose dps) and Familiar. You don't have to use Familiar, plus we don't know just how much they'll be nerfing it with Morrowind but my guess is it'll still be a solid choice.

Sorc spammable is Force Pule(weaved with light attacks) with Frags on proc.

Standard sorc bars is something like
1: Frags, Pulse, Curse, Pet, Inner Light
2: Execute(Mage's wrath or whatever, morph doesn't really matter), Liquid, WoE, Pet, flex slot(I usually run shield here)
If you don't run pet, you could use Bound armor in its place for a nice magicka boost to buff all of your skills, or just slot some utility or something there at the cost of dps. You should be doing pretty decent numbers still. Do you have access to a training dummy? Generally if you're doing 15-20k you're fine. I think I was pulling something like 28k in purple Julianos+Willpower+Illambris+random staves, pet but no Prey(I used the other morph), I'm honestly not very good at it It's higher with BSW and MA staff I have now, and I would be doing a lot more with Necro+Prey combo. But you don't need that much if you aren't into the hardcore stuff. 15k is about enough to pass all vet dungeons in this game. 20k is enough to pass them pretty easily.

Oh. Something I'd like to point out in regards to "why all the sorc hate". The "sorc is op" thing mainly comes from competitive end game where it is currently possible for a pet sorc to achieve higher number than literally anyone else, assuming everyone in question is using BiS gear, solid rotation etc. There're probably people who'd far outdps you on a stamblade which is like weak weak far as sustained dps goes(no offence to you, it's just an experience thing) despite you being a magsorc, but even bestest best stamblade will not be able to outdps or even nearly equal the bestest magsorc. Sorcs are not immortal gods who can press 1 key and one shot everything on the face of Tamriel(though from the way the forums are these days you'd think so...), they just currently have a toolkit at their fingertips that allows them to be the best at magicka dps. Not everyone uses this toolkit and far not everyone actually knows how to use it (effectively). But thing is, other classes do not have such toolkits atm.

Sorc are also really strong in PvP because of some unique skills they possess but then again it's a huge L2P issue on both sides there. A potato sorc will die easily unless he's facing really potato enemies. A good sorc will wipe the floor with his enemies - unless they're good enough to know how to counter him/her. Oh and the "sorcs can tank and kill 10+ people so they need nerfs"? It's bs. Only way a magsorc will tank 10+ people is if he's playing tag with them around a convenient(for the sorc) terrain and they're all REALLY bad. Only way he's killing them all...I don't even know. If they're all THAT bad they just stand in his destro ulti together for its full duration, without using heals or shields or something?

dpencil1

@chancefate81_ESO
Here's my heavy attack pet build. This is what I use most of the time in PvE and is good all the way through Vet Maelstrom Arena:

64 Magicka attributes
Thief Mundus
Blue +Health/+Magicka Food

CP for Morrowind:
Thaumaturge - 75
Ele Expert - 49
Spell Erosion - 31
Elfborn - 44
Master at Arms - 11
Arcanist - 75
Tenacity - 75
Bastion - 75
Other points can be spent as you desire

Gear: (All Divines/Arcane)
2 Grothdarr (1 med, 1 heavy, or both light in not using the Undaunted passive)
5 Necropotence
3 Willpower (all spell damage enchants)
2 Lightning Staves (Sharpened, do not need to be from a set; Front staff enchant: Weapon power, Back staff enchant: Shock damage)

When improving gear, try to get all gear to purple ASAP, then get staves to Gold, then everything else to Gold quality. Any enchants you apply should also be Gold quality.

Skill Bar 1:
Endless Fury
Inner Light
Volatile Familiar
Twilight Matriarch
Empowered Ward
Ult: Thunderous Rage

Skill Bar 2:
Liquid Lightning
Blockade of Storms
Volatile Familiar
Twilight Matriarch
Daedric Prey
Ult: Energy Overload

Overload Bar:
Power Surge
Dark Conversion
Volatile Familiar
Twilight Matriarch
Harness Magicka

Rotation:
Before engaging in a fight, start in the Overload Bar if possible.

Pre-fight:
Power Surge, Harness Magicka, exit Overload Bar

Repeating Rotation: (LA = Light Attack, HA = Heavy Attack)
[LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms, LA, Volatile Familiar, LA, Daedric Prey
Bar Swap
HA, HA
Bar Swap] <-- repeat back to the top, unless...
1. Power Surge runs out: Switch to Overload Bar, activate Power Surge, switch back. Best time to do this is right after Daedric Prey.
2. Enemy is below 20% health: Replace HA, HA with [LA, Endless Fury]x4

Easy kill: LA, Endless Fury, HA

Ult: Feel free to use some Overload LAs if you are over 216 Ult points. Use Destro Ult on bosses only, whenever it's ready, but make sure Power Surge isn't going to run out soon first.

Out of Magicka: Although HAs should generally keep you topped off, you can use Dark Conversion, Harness Magicka, and Overload LAs to get more magicka if you need it.

Staying Alive: If you start taking damage, use Empowered Ward. If your health drops low, use Empowered Ward and then activate the Twilight Matriarch heal. Remember both of these skills protect and heal your pets as well. Keep them alive!

That's it! Good luck out there.

chancefate81_ESO

Wow... well thank you all for the awesome answers and points of view.

The only reason I included my stats in such a detailed way was to help people understand exactly what I was doing to try and explain why I did not get the sense I was overpowered.

To those who said I can't understand because of my lack of PvP you're absolutely right. There are so many quests and things to do I've just never gotten into PvP that much. Whenever someone wants to duel me they (most of the time it seems) act like an ass and the hyper competitiveness turns me off.

I do want to start to learn more about PvP and Cyradiil but I want to build up my main char the best I can first. I guess I can understand how the kind of abilities we have would make magic sorcs great at PvP... but my perspective is of doing vet dungeons or Trials. I've tried to work hard to get better and learn from my mistakes and be a good member of a team. If I have a group counting on me I want to make sure I am not the one holding them back.

As for the duel bars... I know it's really bad I have not effectively learned how to do that better. I am working on it now. I went on a skyshard hunting spree so I could get a ton of extra points and feel like I could get any extra skills I needed/wanted to use for the second skill bar. I've gotten better as I've played, but frankly I don't have the best reflexes... so I have learned to dodge really complicated boss attacks in dungeons... but fighting people is way different, and I've never actively tried to spec myself for PvP.

And just to clear up what I meant... What I was trying to say is even when I was just leveling up with PvE it seemed like if you wanted the very best DPS you were pretty much told exactly what spells to use and what armor to wear to get that. I guess I wish there was a way for people to use any skills they wanted and still be able to put out a competitive amount of damage in groups so people don't feel the need to kick them. It's kind of a non-issue I guess because what I am imagining is just not something ESO does.

In my mind, I guess the easiest way to do what I am thinking about would be having skills you could continue to level up more. Like... anyone could still get force pulse, but you could add more power and effects to it... maybe kind of like Diablo 3 where you have the skills, but then as you level up you can change how they are used. Same skill, several different effects.

Anyway, went off track there.

Thanks all for your advice and not being mean. I play ESO a ton so I don't exactly think of myself as a "casual" gamer in it... but I can't deny I don't do PvP and other things like that, so I'm not going to be on any leader boards any time soon.

chancefate81_ESO

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Also, 65 in elfporn? Does that give good boosts..?

Oh it boosts SOME of your stats alright. However if those stat boosts last longer than 4 hours you should really talk to your doctor... or at the very least your local Priest of Arkay.

acw37162

Question, 1 - yes

Question, 2 -

The sorc hate comes from some legitimate stacking of end game PVE groups staking sorc DPS and kicking other, it slaoncomes from some legitimate PVP hate regarding how strong pets are and how difficult pets sorcs are to deal with. And then you have a host of forum and sorc trolls who just want to see the class destroyed because they don't like the class.


Irregardless the pets are getting nerfed tomorrow 5/22 by how much we will see tomorrow.

dpencil1

@chancefate81_ESO
One of the things that helps me is using a mouse with a couple of thumb buttons. I have one bound to bar swapping, and the other bound to my 5th ability, which is usually a shield.

Honestly, I'm surprised you mentioned participating in Vet group content. I can't imagine you were doing very good dps using only one bar. Have you tried fighting a target skeleton to see what kind of dps you usually do? The build I outlined above easily does 35-40k dps.

Your desire to be able to use whatever skills you want and still be effective is a bit unrealistic. Someone who spams one skill should not be as effective as someone who works on developing a complex rotation that synergizes many different skills together with their gear and stats.

Biro123

dpencil1 wrote: »

@chancefate81_ESO
One of the things that helps me is using a mouse with a couple of thumb buttons. I have one bound to bar swapping, and the other bound to my 5th ability, which is usually a shield.

Honestly, I'm surprised you mentioned participating in Vet group content. I can't imagine you were doing very good dps using only one bar. Have you tried fighting a target skeleton to see what kind of dps you usually do? The build I outlined above easily does 35-40k dps.

Your desire to be able to use whatever skills you want and still be effective is a bit unrealistic. Someone who spams one skill should not be as effective as someone who works on developing a complex rotation that synergizes many different skills together with their gear and stats.

Hehe - I do exactly the same! although my 5th ability is usually for mobility(streak, gap-closers etc.. depending what class I'm playing)