Can somebody explain what's the big deal with animation cancelling?

Nyladreas

So I constantly see people complaining about this and making suggestions for a solution to this, and once such a thread is created people instantly start to attack the OP.

My question is why. Why in the hell would removal of this would be such a huge problem if there was fine tuning around this. Noone ever really explains that yet everyone keeps defending it.

Don't get me wrong, I know how to cancel animations, swap cancel, roll cancel, bash cancel and block cast. I just don't understand what's the big deal?

How would it hurt the game? How would it effect anything if there were buffs to keep the DPS in line.

I personally couldn't care less if the game would change this or not. But there's a lot of people who can't simply because of disabilities or other real life issues. It's very naive and stupid to think people just don't want to learn.

You're not some chosen gifted gods if you can anim cancel you know. (I'm speaking to those who act like this, not everyone)

Edit: phone typos.
Edit 2: not to mention this could help solve many PvE problems with mechanics as some people might have problems focusing.
Edit 3: Just an idea before somebody asks what would be the point of light and heavy attacks. Add a very short GCD and perhaps make both light and heavy attacks restore a portion of stamina, while reducing the passive regeneration to stay in line with "less sustain"? Again I'm asking how would this be a bad change if there was fine tuning of numbers involved?

TL;DR - don't understand the point of hostility towards people wanting this removed.

Sabbathius

Fairly simple - people who learned to use it would hate to lose it. And people who macro it would hate to lose it too, because then they would be like every other non-macroing player who never learned how to do it well. In both cases, it's a serious advantage over an average player, and people hate to lose that. Hence the resistance. It doesn't help that ZOS doesn't know how to fix this, and (years ago?) said that they kinda like it, which gave it legitimacy.

And yes, I know how to do it too. Though manually (without macros) it doesn't always work well because latency for me in Cyrodiil jumps routinely in 400-600ms range, where I consider anything over 300ms no longer competitive. I just really dislike how it looks, all the jerking and animations cut short make it look like a $5 game made in someone's basement. People who cry "but skill!" really should realize there's plenty of room for skill in tactics and builds and strategy, not just pounding the keys like a demented howler monkey.

Personally I feel animation canceling does the game a great disservice. It really discourages new players from PvPing when they get dropped like a sack of manure by a macroer, or an outright hacker, with attacks they never even saw because they were animation-canceled within 100ms of being initiated. And as mentioned visually instead of graceful flow of attacks like in Witcher 3, like a dance, you end up watching a character having a seizure and screaming incoherently.

Nyladreas

Sabbathius wrote: »

Fairly simple - people who learned to use it would hate to lose it. And people who macro it would hate to lose it too, because then they would be like every other non-macroing player who never learned how to do it well. In both cases, it's a serious advantage over an average player, and people hate to lose that. Hence the resistance. It doesn't help that ZOS doesn't know how to fix this, and (years ago?) said that they kinda like it, which gave it legitimacy.

And yes, I know how to do it too. Though manually (without macros) it doesn't always work well because latency for me in Cyrodiil jumps routinely in 400-600ms range, where I consider anything over 300ms no longer competitive. I just really dislike how it looks, all the jerking and animations cut short make it look like a $5 game made in someone's basement. People who cry "but skill!" really should realize there's plenty of room for skill in tactics and builds and strategy, not just pounding the keys like a demented howler monkey.

Personally I feel animation canceling does the game a great disservice. It really discourages new players from PvPing when they get dropped like a sack of manure by a macroer, or an outright hacker, with attacks they never even saw because they were animation-canceled within 100ms of being initiated. And as mentioned visually instead of graceful flow of attacks like in Witcher 3, like a dance, you end up watching a character having a seizure and screaming incoherently.

Exactly what I was thinking as well though I didn't want to start calling out other players who consider themselves elite.

Imo this doesn't even have much to do with a skill and hurts not only PvP but PvE as well. It also allows for more toxicity in the game as a whole because certain individuals get the feeling of achieving impossible.

I don't mind being good or better than others but this is just plain *** measure of skill if you ask me and excuse my language.

Also can't agree more with the elegant fluid looking combat.

Juhasow

This game have many aspects that developers should really focus on fixing and improving yet many people want to change something that is one of the things making this game unique and also works totally fine ?

Lets focus on real issues not create fake ones.

Nyladreas

Juhasow wrote: »

This game have many aspects that developers should really focus on fixing and improving yet many people want to change something that is one of the things making this game unique and also works totally fine ?

Lets focus on real issues not create fake ones.

You entirely skipped the point of the thread. Explained nothing and gave 0 constructive feedback.

Not to mention that this change would be very simple to implement if the idea how to keep balance inline was good.

Liofa

These threads are caused by people who reks these ''forum warriors'' . Doesn't matter how . Doing more DPS , better tanking , better healing , beating in duel ... And these people who got beaten in some way , learns how they got beaten and immediately start thinking like ''Wow , that guy is using cheats! I am sure if he wasn't using cheats , I would beat him!'' Where they complain ? Forums , of course . And as you know , lots of people are started to play ESO since Homestead because housing , roleplay etc. More new players > more people getting beaten by others > more forum threads .

What about the ''animation cancelling doesn't require skill'' discussion ^^ Only someone who doesn't know what animation cancelling is can say that . Timing light attacks perfectly for every skill requires practice , hours of practice . Most people doesn't even know what it is . They think you can cast multiple skills at once ^^ Forums are funny . Go to Youtube , watch couple videos on how to do animation cancelling . Learn it properly . I know what you are thinking . ''I know what it is already!'' No you don't . There are 7 animation cancelling with couple other non-important ones . Light cancel , Medium cancel , Heavy cancel , block cancel , swap cancel , roll cancel , bash cancel . Here you go . Why am I trying so hard to make you learn ? Not because I want you to do it . I just want you to know exactly what it is . If you are against it , you will be able to stop yourself from doing it without noticing . I am just trying to help you . If you are against something , you should know what you are against at perfectly . So you don't do it yourself . Here is a guide that is very detailed , fast and to the point . It doesn't cover all of those I said earlier but it covers most of it . It also comes with a very special and powerful cancel works very well in PvP !

Cheers and good luck .

Nyladreas

Liofa wrote: »

These threads are caused by people who reks these ''forum warriors'' . Doesn't matter how . Doing more DPS , better tanking , better healing , beating in duel ... And these people who got beaten in some way , learns how they got beaten and immediately start thinking like ''Wow , that guy is using cheats! I am sure if he wasn't using cheats , I would beat him!'' Where they complain ? Forums , of course . And as you know , lots of people are started to play ESO since Homestead because housing , roleplay etc. More new players > more people getting beaten by others > more forum threads .

What about the ''animation cancelling doesn't require skill'' discussion ^^ Only someone who doesn't know what animation cancelling is can say that . Timing light attacks perfectly for every skill requires practice , hours of practice . Most people doesn't even know what it is . They think you can cast multiple skills at once ^^ Forums are funny . Go to Youtube , watch couple videos on how to do animation cancelling . Learn it properly . I know what you are thinking . ''I know what it is already!'' No you don't . There are 7 animation cancelling with couple other non-important ones . Light cancel , Medium cancel , Heavy cancel , block cancel , swap cancel , roll cancel , bash cancel . Here you go . Why am I trying so hard to make you learn ? Not because I want you to do it . I just want you to know exactly what it is . If you are against it , you will be able to stop yourself from doing it without noticing . I am just trying to help you . If you are against something , you should know what you are against at perfectly . So you don't do it yourself . Here is a guide that is very detailed , fast and to the point . It doesn't cover all of those I said earlier but it covers most of it . It also comes with a very special and powerful cancel works very well in PvP !

Cheers and good luck .

Except I already really do know what it is, been using it for quite a while and don't think it's anything special whatsoever.

Also you ignored a huge chunk of my initial post as I said i don't care and won't care but lots of people are physically unable to do so, yet you keep saying they're just notbthat good. *sadface*

Jamascus

DoShazarr wrote: »

So I constantly see people complaining about this and making suggestions for a solution to this, and once such a thread is created people instantly start to attack the OP.

My question is why. Why in the hell would removal of this would be such a huge problem if there was fine tuning around this. Noone ever really explains that yet everyone keeps defending it.

Don't get me wrong, I know how to cancel animations, stack cast and block cast. I just don't understand what's the big deal?

How would it hurt the game? How would it effect anything if there were buffs to keep the DPS in line.

I personally couldn't care less if the game would change this or not. But there's a lot of people who can't simply because of disabilities or other real life issues. It's very naive and stupid to think people just don't want to learn.

You're not some chosen gifted gods if you can anim cancel you know. (I'm speaking to those who act like this, not everyone)

Edit: phone typos.
Edit 2: not to mention this could help solve many PvE problems with mechanics as some people might have problems focusing.
Edit 3: Just an idea before somebody asks what would be the point of light and heavy attacks. Add a very short GCD and perhaps make both light and heavy attacks restore a portion of stamina, while reducing the passive regeneration to stay in line with "less sustain"? Again I'm asking how would this be a bad change if there was fine tuning of numbers involved?

TL;DR - don't understand the point of hostility towards people wanting this removed.

The problem for me is that is was not an intended design for combat. It was brought to ZOS attention and instead of calling it a bug and fixing it, they called it a feature. I tend to read between the lines and think what they meant to say is, they don't know how to fix it so they're calling it a feature. It's fine with me if they remove it.

Gilvoth

your right, and i agree with removal of animation canceling, stack casting, and block casting.

brandonv516

I still don't know if I'm animation cancelling.

If you mean like when I launch a heavy destro attack, shoot destructive reach while the fireball is in the air, and then quickly use soul assault before they get up...then no I don't want to get rid of that possibility.

Nyladreas

brandonv516 wrote: »

I still don't know if I'm animation cancelling.

If you mean like when I launch a heavy destro attack, shoot destructive reach while the fireball is in the air, and then quickly use soul assault before they get up...then no I don't want to get rid of that possibility.

But WHY, nobody ever explains this. Everyone keeps ignoring the whole point of the thread lol

Lavennin

As a long time player of Japanese fighting games and ARPGs (not limited to Souls) I don't like animation canceling the slightest. Yes, it requires skill. But it's ugly, inconsistent and...frankly, it looks like a bug.

I heard it was unintentional in the beginning, which explains the amateur level of quality.

Removing it and implementing a better skill-based combat system is going to be the right decision, but I suspect most people don't trust ZOS enough to support it. It's as if everyone fears a change, and believes ZOS may break it further in the process.

brandonv516

DoShazarr wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

I still don't know if I'm animation cancelling.

If you mean like when I launch a heavy destro attack, shoot destructive reach while the fireball is in the air, and then quickly use soul assault before they get up...then no I don't want to get rid of that possibility.

But WHY, nobody ever explains this. Everyone keeps ignoring the whole point of the thread lol

Why don't I want to get rid of that? It's fun. If I had to wait for each of those to connect before the next attack came out well I might as well go play chess with my kid.

zaria

Sabbathius wrote: »

Fairly simple - people who learned to use it would hate to lose it. And people who macro it would hate to lose it too, because then they would be like every other non-macroing player who never learned how to do it well. In both cases, it's a serious advantage over an average player, and people hate to lose that. Hence the resistance. It doesn't help that ZOS doesn't know how to fix this, and (years ago?) said that they kinda like it, which gave it legitimacy.

And yes, I know how to do it too. Though manually (without macros) it doesn't always work well because latency for me in Cyrodiil jumps routinely in 400-600ms range, where I consider anything over 300ms no longer competitive. I just really dislike how it looks, all the jerking and animations cut short make it look like a $5 game made in someone's basement. People who cry "but skill!" really should realize there's plenty of room for skill in tactics and builds and strategy, not just pounding the keys like a demented howler monkey.

Personally I feel animation canceling does the game a great disservice. It really discourages new players from PvPing when they get dropped like a sack of manure by a macroer, or an outright hacker, with attacks they never even saw because they were animation-canceled within 100ms of being initiated. And as mentioned visually instead of graceful flow of attacks like in Witcher 3, like a dance, you end up watching a character having a seizure and screaming incoherently.

Animation canceling give you 4 benefits,1 you get pretty free light attacks, 2 pretty free bar swap, 3 you can block and cast.
4 you can respond immediately if you need to block or dodge.

Two ways to change it, making an started cast non uninterruptible would make the game feel sluggish and have major game breaking effects as you would get issue reacting to boss mechanics.
They could add casting time to any skill, this would remove 1-3, but leave 4 safe.
This have two downsides, it would be an morrowind sized nerf, have an major effect on tanks as they have to let go on block more, it would make using the back bar more expensive, and macro users would just factor in the cast time.

SimeonTregarth

Please wait a moment while I put on my flame resistant suit... There, all ready now!

I am one of those players with physical disabilities that make it very hard to utilize animation cancelling. That is partially the same thing as weaving, right? If not then just ignore the rest of this post. The problem with having this as a "feature" in the game is that everything else gets balanced around it. Since all of the top tier players utilize some form of animation cancelling the developers make decisions based upon that play style. Basically they assume everyone does it. So they step in and nerf dps or sustain (Morrowind?) or whatever without any seeming concern for the rest of us.

I mainly solo because I don't want to inflict my disability constrained dps on anyone else. While I enjoy the game very much I would like to be able to join in structured group activities from time to time (I do casual grouping for dolmens and world bosses, etc.). But as it is, even with a reasonable build and a decent rotation I will never be able to put out competitive dps numbers. Now I am not saying everyone else should be nerfed just so I can be competitive. There will always be better and more skilled players than me but I feel like animation cancelling adds an artificial barrier that unfairly impacts a significant portion of the player base. That includes not just old geezers with bad hands like me but also those with poor latency and perhaps other issues as well.

Even if animation cancelling were eliminated I would still never achieve top tier dps. But at least I would not feel like I was locked out of much of the game because the dps requirements were "balanced" around animation cancelling.

Okay, I'm done. I'll just slip back under my rock now. :-)

Zolron

SimeonTregarth wrote: »

Please wait a moment while I put on my flame resistant suit... There, all ready now!

I am one of those players with physical disabilities that make it very hard to utilize animation cancelling. That is partially the same thing as weaving, right? If not then just ignore the rest of this post. The problem with having this as a "feature" in the game is that everything else gets balanced around it. Since all of the top tier players utilize some form of animation cancelling the developers make decisions based upon that play style. Basically they assume everyone does it. So they step in and nerf dps or sustain (Morrowind?) or whatever without any seeming concern for the rest of us.

I mainly solo because I don't want to inflict my disability constrained dps on anyone else. While I enjoy the game very much I would like to be able to join in structured group activities from time to time (I do casual grouping for dolmens and world bosses, etc.). But as it is, even with a reasonable build and a decent rotation I will never be able to put out competitive dps numbers. Now I am not saying everyone else should be nerfed just so I can be competitive. There will always be better and more skilled players than me but I feel like animation cancelling adds an artificial barrier that unfairly impacts a significant portion of the player base. That includes not just old geezers with bad hands like me but also those with poor latency and perhaps other issues as well.

Even if animation cancelling were eliminated I would still never achieve top tier dps. But at least I would not feel like I was locked out of much of the game because the dps requirements were "balanced" around animation cancelling.

Okay, I'm done. I'll just slip back under my rock now. :-)

^^^ Well said and %100 completely agree.

Malic

I animation canceled all the time in cyrodiil, I got a lot of kills with it.

What always puzzled me was, why would developers develop a skill animation that could be canceled? I mean isnt that counter intuitive?

Not just Zos, I mean we know they are winging it mostly but in other games as well. Animation cancelling is a thing, why have an animation at all?

Please swami whats the answer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR8Z6A_D2jk

ofSunhold

Lavennin wrote: »

Removing it and implementing a better skill-based combat system is going to be the right decision, but I suspect most people don't trust ZOS enough to support it. It's as if everyone fears a change, and believes ZOS may break it further in the process.

Well, yes. Sorry to be cynical, but in the months I've been playing this game, they've broken more stuff than they've fixed by messing around with it. My faith in their ability to change this rather crucial underlying mechanic and NOT screw it up for months hovers around zero.

Tell me it would be a super-simple change my grandmother could code. This will not change my POV here. I'm not excited about them touching anything that doesn't need to be fixed. Aesthetic and philosophical objections to animation cancelling =/= need.

So, while I am not hostile toward people who bring this up, I don't support. If you really wanted my reason and not just to scold me, there it is.

Avran_Sylt

@brandonv516

Light attack animation cancelling is auto attacking, then quickly pressing your ability button so you only see the ability go off, but an "invisible" light attack also fires during that ability animation, which adds an additional instance of Direct damage for proc sets, procs your primary weapon enchant, and overall gives the player "free damage/proc instance" in their ability rotation.

The same is true for Heavy attack animation cancelling, you charge your heavy attack, and interestingly enough you can actually do somewhat of an ability queue while you're charging that heavy attack, so your ability and the heavy attack hit at the exact same time. Though this isn't used to much in PvE apart from when you're regaining resources.

These button presses are usually done within a tenth of a second from one another to maximize your ability to keep up shield/weave in auto attacks for additional direct damage instances and procing your enchantments.

NewBlacksmurf

Short response.
Dmg happens without accurate visuals so in PvP that's an issue.

Same happens in PvE but it's become how to beat encounters so ppl want it to stay or at least the dmg output possibility to remain

Rohamad_Ali

I think if you are holding out hope that ZoS will ever change their position on this , you are in for a lot of disappointment . If they did remove it , I would adjust back to longer cast times and rigid rotations . I'm fine if stays as I know how to do it very quickly . I just think it's a dead issue to ZoS , not the players , just them .

If you like seeing all combat happen I understand . I do too sometimes . If you love animation canceling , I understand that too . It does help clearing Dungeoms quickly and in burning down bosses . Trials and Vet Bosses would probably be a even less fun to pound on for a lot more time . I don't know many that enjoy doing the same PVE content for even longer and we already will have longer runs with Marrowind issues .

I think it frustrates people in PVP the most that don't get to see what's going in a fight . You have to be a little psychic or run addons to really see what is going on . I don't think there is one right or wrong answer as it always lands on personal opinion and sacrifices one group or another ends up imposing on each other . So for that reason I'm out and leave it to the creators decision . It's taken along time for me to let it go but it's what's best for me after looking at the bigger picture .

ArchMikem

I myself have absolutely no idea how to Animation Cancel. Perhaps ive been doing it by accident? No clue. All i know is its an unintended side effect of the game's combat mechanics that has become so cemented into the way the playerbase plays the game, ZOS is probably too terrified to ever consider it against the rules, or even a glitch that needs fixing, cause a large swathe of their paying customers would burn the forums down and uninstall.

Waffennacht

Would you then be unable to block say a boss attack because you started a channel or casted spell?

Dantaria

DoShazarr wrote: »

So I constantly see people complaining about this and making suggestions for a solution to this, and once such a thread is created people instantly start to attack the OP.

My question is why. Why in the hell would removal of this would be such a huge problem if there was fine tuning around this. Noone ever really explains that yet everyone keeps defending it.

Don't get me wrong, I know how to cancel animations, swap cancel, roll cancel, bash cancel and block cast. I just don't understand what's the big deal?

How would it hurt the game? How would it effect anything if there were buffs to keep the DPS in line.

I personally couldn't care less if the game would change this or not. But there's a lot of people who can't simply because of disabilities or other real life issues. It's very naive and stupid to think people just don't want to learn.

You're not some chosen gifted gods if you can anim cancel you know. (I'm speaking to those who act like this, not everyone)

And now reverse that sentiment

As all of us know, endgame content is filled with DPS-checks. Like, really... There are tons of them.

Let's imagine that I'm not max-CP player who wants to get dat sexy Amberplasm skin. So I go to my guildies and say, "Hey, guys! Wanna skin, take me in for achievement hunting?" And they naturally ask, "What's your DPS?" Because last boss in vRoM on HM requires pretty solid DPS.

If I don't have enough... I have two options:

1) Simply wait until 600CP. On 600CP even without ani cancelling I would have enough DPS to get dat skin. Nowhere and never would I say that this is a bad option. It totally is an option.

But... But... But what if I really-really-really want dat skin? And not a very patient person?

2) Boost my DPS by whatever means necessary. Farm gear, practice rotation and... Yep. Learn to ani cancel

Nobody - I repeat, nobody - but top-tier gulds require you to ani cancel. But it is an option to push yourself a bit further and to get into content you're technically not supposed to participate in yet.

If a 200CP player reaaaaaally wants to clear vAA... Why not give him some means to do it? Something which will... hehe... cancel his lack of CP?

Options. Options are good You don't want to/can't ani cancel? That's fine, you'll get where you want eventually. It'll just take time.

You reeeeeeeally want to get into endgame content as early as possible? Well, gotta work for it. But the option is there. The way is there.

Why remove it? Isn't it better to have options rather than... not have them?

Izaki

Malic wrote: »

I animation canceled all the time in cyrodiil, I got a lot of kills with it.

What always puzzled me was, why would developers develop a skill animation that could be canceled? I mean isnt that counter intuitive?

Not just Zos, I mean we know they are winging it mostly but in other games as well. Animation cancelling is a thing, why have an animation at all?

Please swami whats the answer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR8Z6A_D2jk

You don't actually cancel the animation. It still plays out. The only thing it allows you to "cancel" is the follow through or the body movement when doing a skill.

Izaki

ArchMikem wrote: »

I myself have absolutely no idea how to Animation Cancel. Perhaps ive been doing it by accident? No clue. All i know is its an unintended side effect of the game's combat mechanics that has become so cemented into the way the playerbase plays the game, ZOS is probably too terrified to ever consider it against the rules, or even a glitch that needs fixing, cause a large swathe of their paying customers would burn the forums down and uninstall.

I can say, while being 100% sure, that you have already animation canceled unintentionally.

Example: spamming hard cast Frags when you've just made a sorc and its your only skill, is animation canceling, because you cancel the follow through of the skill. At this point, you're level 2, completely new to the game and already are animation canceling.

There are tons more examples of unintentional AC. This is just the first one that came to mind.

Its rooted so deep into the game's mechanics that removing it would literally break the game's combat system. Ever wondered why its so smooth? Its because of animation canceling. Sure there are techniques that serve specific purposes (like pulling more DPS or bashing at the same time as doing a skill) but at core, animation canceling is what makes the combat system so smooth. And at core, this probably wasn't even referred to as AC. AC is more of the "hated" term that designates the different techniques used to get more damage or more interesting combos, etc.

makreth

People will say that this adds to the action combat the game has and they want to have the option to control and improve their gamestyle. Yet it is those who actually use macros (as in bound sequences of actions into keys) eliminating the above argument. What can I say, people wanna feel superior in the end. :d

Nolic1

Well in truth Animation cancelling it not unique to this game many mmo's have it to name the ones I have played DCUO, Blade and Soul, Blackdesert and Dragon Nest all have it and all the devs there said the same thing you all are saying. The problem is in any action type game and that is if you have a button push on the mouse or gamepad or even a arcade stick you can animation cancel I have been doing this sense the days of Street Fighter 2 and Mortal combat. This is a problem with alot of action games.

The problem lies in the button push for action command that tells the game when you push this left mouse button you do a light attack the right button blocks and it only takes a tap of the button to have that happen and it cancels what ever you started and if they had it programmed with a GCD of 1 sec then they may as well copied the standard combat system of most mmo's.

getemshauna

I could write here a looong post, and respond about your every question. But I won't do it, for currect state, I got SIMPLE question for you.

What the hell is diffucult in putting light attacks between skills?

Rohamad_Ali

makreth wrote: »

People will say that this adds to the action combat the game has and they want to have the option to control and improve their gamestyle. Yet it is those who actually use macros (as in bound sequences of actions into keys) eliminating the above argument. What can I say, people wanna feel superior in the end. :d

Macros would be an entirely different issue . Even games with little to zero animation canceling still have people that use macros . Most games allow macros as they can not make ability timers any faster then the game allows . Not everyone that animation cancels uses macros . I have never used a macro in this game because I'm a strict follower of the rules . I don't use a razor naga or multi key binding hardware . Even if there is no way to be caught I would not simply because doing things manually over and over improves my speed and personal ability . Also in PVP the situations are too fluid for me and a macro would most likely kill me as save me by doing the wrong thing at the wrong time .

CaptainBeerDude

gethemshauna wrote: »

I could write here a looong post, and respond about your every question. But I won't do it, for currect state, I got SIMPLE question for you.

What the hell is diffucult in putting light attacks between skills?

Lag. If it's a good day my ping is only 300.