Daggers vs. Swords for Stamina PvE DPS... with math!

TheForseti

So two daggers gives 1095*2=2,190 crit rating. Every 219 points of crit rating is 1% crit chance, so 2190/219=10% increased crit chance from x2 daggers. The base crit multiplier in ESO is 50% bonus damage. Two swords is 5% weapon damage increase. Say you have 3000 weapon damage and 60% crit chance (without daggers), the math works as follows:

Swords damage bonus: 3,000 * 5% = 150 bonus damage from swords

Daggers (average effective) bonus damage:(3,000*50%*70%)-(3,000*50%*60%) = 1,050-900 = 150 (average effective) bonus damage from daggers
The above equation for daggers can be simplified to: 3,000*50%*10%=150

Even if you had 600 bonus damage fully buffed and an extra 20% total bonus crit damage from 10% Minor Force (Rearming trap), and 10% from Precise Strikes that still works out to:

Swords: 3,600 * 5% = 180
Daggers: 3,600 * 70% * 10% = 252

252-180=72 more damage from daggers than swords, which is 72/3,600=2% more damage or, if you pull 30,000 dps single target, an extra 600 dps. I understand Major Force from Aggressive Horn is a factor for elite top end best players in the world, but that's less than 1% of the player base. Nightblades get an extra 10% crit damage for each Assassination ability slotted via Hemorrhage II, and Templars get a flat 10% crit damage for having one Aedric Spear ability slotted from Piercing Spear II.

An extra 600 dps is nice, but you should still be able to clear all content in the game with swords.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Forseti

Rohamad_Ali

So , when do swords go on sale ?

Bobby_V_Rockit

Magic, got it.

cpuScientist

TheForseti wrote: »

So two daggers gives 1095*2=2,190 crit rating. Every 219 points of crit rating is 1% crit chance, so 2190/219=10% increased crit chance from x2 daggers. The base crit multiplier in ESO is 50% bonus damage. Two swords is 5% weapon damage increase. Say you have 3000 weapon damage and 60% crit chance (without daggers), the math works as follows:

Swords damage bonus: 3,000 * 5% = 150 bonus damage from swords

Daggers (average effective) bonus damage:(3,000*50%*70%)-(3,000*50%*60%) = 1,050-900 = 150 (average effective) bonus damage from daggers
The above equation for daggers can be simplified to: 3,000*50%*10%=150

Even if you had 600 bonus damage fully buffed and an extra 20% total bonus crit damage from 10% Minor Force (Rearming trap), and 10% from Precise Strikes that still works out to:

Swords: 3,600 * 5% = 180
Daggers: 3,600 * 70% * 10% = 252

252-180=72 more damage from daggers than swords, which is 72/3,600=2% more damage or, if you pull 30,000 dps single target, an extra 600 dps. I understand Major Force from Aggressive Horn is a factor for elite top end best players in the world, but that's less than 1% of the player base. Nightblades get an extra 10% crit damage for each Assassination ability slotted via Hemorrhage II, and Templars get a flat 10% crit damage for having one Aedric Spear ability slotted from Piercing Spear II.

An extra 600 dps is nice, but you should still be able to clear all content in the game with swords.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Forseti

A warhorn is not for the elite. Every and anyone an run it...

Ultimate_Overlord

That calculation is only correct if you have 0% crit before equipping daggers, which isnt possible, or if you dont have any extra % dmg multipliers, which is often not the case.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

That calculation is only correct if you have 0% crit before equipping daggers, which isnt possible, or if you dont have any extra % dmg multipliers, which is often not the case.

Actually, those calculations assume a 60% crit chance. The formula is (weapon damage x 50% (base crit damage) x 70% (60% base + 10% from equipped daggers)) minus (weapon damage x 50% x 60% (base crit chance without daggers equipped)) to give what the difference is. Effectively, being WD*0.7 - WD*0.6 = WD*0.1... The math is sound.

The only problem being that additional damage only applies 60 or 70% of the time rather than the sword bonus applying at all times.

Personally, I get highest DPS scores when running one of each.

eso_nya

hehe, well, ppl call stuff "dead", "nerfed to the ground", "fotm", "bis" when they differ as much as sword and dagger

You made a little mistake tho: swords dont increase "weapon damage" but "damage done". That simplifies it alot.
At the base 50% crit dmg, sword and dagger r equal. With increased critical dmg, daggers become better, to a possible maximum of 50 + 25 (cp) + 10 (trap) + 15 (warhorn) + 10 (class passvie templar) + 18,3 (Shadow) = 128,3 -> 12,83%.
As an average, id assume ~75% crit dmg tho (i dont pump everything into cp, warhorn doesnt have 100% uptime, i prefer thief over shadow, and so on).
In that case, daggers increase dmg done by 7,5% which is 2,5% more than swords.
That means: Swords r superoverpowered in PvP, where u face ppl using shields*, but dead in PvE cause Daggers r do sooooo much dmg, that its huuuuge! lol :P (*Pray u wont be facing ppl using their brains!)

600 dps is nothing. When u keep hitting the dummy often enough to relyable replicate your rotation, lucky crits do more of u, screwing up the rota costs more and u might see far higher differences in real combat situations.

Jeckll

For any damage increase calculation, you have to check your current stats in comparison to the new stats.
This is not only true for +Crit from daggers but also +Damage Done from Swords, which works additively with all other +Damage done sources like CP (Mighty, Thaumaturge, Master-at-Arms), Minor Berserk, Minor Slayer or Execute applifier. So you will not get the full 2.5% from swords.

The_Saint

TheForseti wrote: »

So two daggers gives 1095*2=2,190 crit rating. Every 219 points of crit rating is 1% crit chance, so 2190/219=10% increased crit chance from x2 daggers. The base crit multiplier in ESO is 50% bonus damage. Two swords is 5% weapon damage increase. Say you have 3000 weapon damage and 60% crit chance (without daggers), the math works as follows:

Swords damage bonus: 3,000 * 5% = 150 bonus damage from swords

Daggers (average effective) bonus damage:(3,000*50%*70%)-(3,000*50%*60%) = 1,050-900 = 150 (average effective) bonus damage from daggers
The above equation for daggers can be simplified to: 3,000*50%*10%=150

Even if you had 600 bonus damage fully buffed and an extra 20% total bonus crit damage from 10% Minor Force (Rearming trap), and 10% from Precise Strikes that still works out to:

Swords: 3,600 * 5% = 180
Daggers: 3,600 * 70% * 10% = 252

252-180=72 more damage from daggers than swords, which is 72/3,600=2% more damage or, if you pull 30,000 dps single target, an extra 600 dps. I understand Major Force from Aggressive Horn is a factor for elite top end best players in the world, but that's less than 1% of the player base. Nightblades get an extra 10% crit damage for each Assassination ability slotted via Hemorrhage II, and Templars get a flat 10% crit damage for having one Aedric Spear ability slotted from Piercing Spear II.

An extra 600 dps is nice, but you should still be able to clear all content in the game with swords.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Forseti

Nightblades get an extra 10% crit damage for each Assassination ability slotted via Hemorrhage II

That would be nice... but no thats wrong.

tunepunk

Also depends if you're doing proc sets or not. 5% damage done from swords applies to any type of damage. (Procs from proc sets), or magicka based damage if you're using some hybrid or in cases where not all your damage is physical.

Rare but possible: You can even do a mag caster with Dual swords for extra bonus damage, as you would get higher Base spell dmg with DW than with destruction staff. Of course you cant use destruction staff skills then, but use other mag based skills instead, and benefit from higher base spell damage and 5% damage done.

Just because you DW doesn't mean you have to use stamina skills You can use desto on back bar and DW Swords on front bar for nice bonus damage to all your mag based skills.

Bladerunner1

I'm willing to bet swords were nerfed with the release of Morrowind, just like bow skills and executes.

The physical resistance threshold where maces outperform swords *seems* a lot lower these days if you have CP buffing damage.

*Edit* For me, swords give about 3.7% more damage compared to an axe, 1.4% less damage compared to mace on a target with major fracture.

Ultimate_Overlord

@Bobby_V_Rockit You have to account for crit and crit dmg relative to what you already have, so the proper formula for dagger dmg in the 1st example would be 3000 * 0.1 * 0.5 / (1+ 0.6 * 0.5), in which case dagger dmg would be 115.38
Edit: not your calculation, but still flawed anyway.

paul_j

Would you happen to know the difference between double maces for a max armor target?

Bladerunner1

paul_j wrote: »

Would you happen to know the difference between double maces for a max armor target?

Max armor inside PVE dungeons? That's 18,200.

Double mace gets around 3640 physical penetration against max armor. About an 8% increase in damage.

It's 2640 physical pen against a target affected by major fracture, which is close to a 6% increase in damage.

It's 1660 physical penetration against a target debuffed down to 8300 armor, which gives a 3.7% increase in damage, which matches the buff you get with swords if you have max champion points. Yeah swords are awful this patch.

getemshauna

Swords give 5% overall damage done, not 5% weapon damage.

sneakymitchell

Don't forget about damage shields.

Toc de Malsvi

At 60% crit, assuming 100 hits 100 damage done non crit and crit modifier of 1.5 for critical to do 150.

No passive bonus
100*40+150*60=13000

Swords
(100*40+150*60)*1.05=13650

Daggers
100*30+150*70=13500

At crit modifier of 1.7 and crit of 80%.

Swords
(100*20+170*80)*1.05=16380

Daggers
100*10+170*90=16300

Toc de Malsvi

Swords lose more value due to additive value of increased damage by percentage from CP. Just as bow passives are less valuable with CP.

Toc de Malsvi

Such as looking just at mighty for stam. Say you have a 20% increase from mighty. It becomes:

Sword
(100*20+170*80)*(1+0.2+0.05)=19500

Dagger
(100*10+170*90)*(1+0.2)=19560

Ulo

+1 Awesome for math and SCIENCE!

Xvorg

gethemshauna wrote: »

Swords give 5% overall damage done, not 5% weapon damage.

this!

paul_j

So swords are on par with daggers?

Bladerunner1

paul_j wrote: »

So swords are on par with daggers?

In PVE, daggers offer +10% crit rating, which translates to roughly 5-6% more damage for stamblades. It can be lower if you only have the standard 50% crit damage buff.

Swords offer +3.7% more damage to someone with maxed out Champion Points allocated to deal max damage or +5% more damage to someone who isn't using any CP to buff damage.

TheNorthernDragon

So, just swack everything with dual maces? Got it.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Swords are big daggers. Goddit.

Morvane

TheForseti wrote: »

So two daggers gives 1095*2=2,190 crit rating. Every 219 points of crit rating is 1% crit chance, so 2190/219=10% increased crit chance from x2 daggers. The base crit multiplier in ESO is 50% bonus damage. Two swords is 5% weapon damage increase. Say you have 3000 weapon damage and 60% crit chance (without daggers), the math works as follows:

Swords damage bonus: 3,000 * 5% = 150 bonus damage from swords

Daggers (average effective) bonus damage:(3,000*50%*70%)-(3,000*50%*60%) = 1,050-900 = 150 (average effective) bonus damage from daggers
The above equation for daggers can be simplified to: 3,000*50%*10%=150

Even if you had 600 bonus damage fully buffed and an extra 20% total bonus crit damage from 10% Minor Force (Rearming trap), and 10% from Precise Strikes that still works out to:

Swords: 3,600 * 5% = 180
Daggers: 3,600 * 70% * 10% = 252

252-180=72 more damage from daggers than swords, which is 72/3,600=2% more damage or, if you pull 30,000 dps single target, an extra 600 dps. I understand Major Force from Aggressive Horn is a factor for elite top end best players in the world, but that's less than 1% of the player base. Nightblades get an extra 10% crit damage for each Assassination ability slotted via Hemorrhage II, and Templars get a flat 10% crit damage for having one Aedric Spear ability slotted from Piercing Spear II.

An extra 600 dps is nice, but you should still be able to clear all content in the game with swords.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Forseti

greedy children just wanna MORE