Old-timers, has the game had any updates as critical as Morrowind?

colig

I joined the game just before Shadows of the Hist launched, so I'm not entirely familiar with the whole history of the game. I am curious as to how previous updates compared in scale and reception to the upcoming Morrowind update.

jircris11

colig wrote: »

I joined the game just before Shadows of the Hist launched, so I'm not entirely familiar with the whole history of the game. I am curious as to how previous updates compared in scale and reception to the upcoming Morrowind update.

well they are messing with sustain so people are up in a riot. Ironically this is the same thing that happened on every update. Today's mmo community is all about negativity, it is not like is was back with EQ and ultima where we enjoyed the expansions and did not go out of our way to act entitled. I tested all of the changes, and i am not worried to be honest. Morrowind will bring tons of changes, some good some bad and some meh.

Balamoor

jircris11 wrote: »

colig wrote: »

I joined the game just before Shadows of the Hist launched, so I'm not entirely familiar with the whole history of the game. I am curious as to how previous updates compared in scale and reception to the upcoming Morrowind update.

well they are messing with sustain so people are up in a riot. Ironically this is the same thing that happened on every update. Today's mmo community is all about negativity, it is not like is was back with EQ and ultima where we enjoyed the expansions and did not go out of our way to act entitled. I tested all of the changes, and i am not worried to be honest. Morrowind will bring tons of changes, some good some bad and some meh.

Well said...I miss those days, I miss the Caliber of people in the community, today we have a snowflake theater of entitlement.

As far as scale goes if the OP is using scale in the sheer size of the update this would be the largest I would say.

starkerealm

Yes.

Actually, you were here for a much larger kick over, when leveled zones were pulled from the game, and everything was configured to scale to the player. In comparison, this is a fairly minor tweak that will affect players at cap. Non-50s will see some slight shifts to their ability costs (not always an increase), and some of their resource return abilities will be less impressive.

So, no, there have been much bigger releases than this.

ArchMikem

Homestead had a lot of changes too, but people just like to comb over patch notes, find the one thing that doesnt sit well with them, then act like its a major betrayal and its the end of the game.

starkerealm

ArchMikem wrote: »

Homestead had a lot of changes too, but people just like to comb over patch notes, find the one thing that doesnt sit well with them, then act like its a major betrayal and its the end of the game.

Yeah, we've had tantrums over changes before. The tone is a little more apocalyptic this time, but that has more to do with a certain youtuber flipping out over the changes, grossly misrepresenting them, and riling up their fanbase, rather than the changes really being that huge.

Ironically, there've been two prior recovery nerfs, which had similar end of the world predictions at the time. So, none of this is really new.

waterfairy

I play all classes, both stam and mag, and I can't recall getting hit for all of them at once in a patch before this one. There were larger changes like One Tamriel but this seems to be the largest nerf to date.

silky_soft

Morrowind has been the worst received by a very large amount. At no time in ESO history has there been so much disrespect from both sides due to the devs refusing to heed our advice.

Launch bugs, Anti-bot lag, no soft caps, B2P, stat rescaling, nirhoned gear, CP, DLC, all the block/dodge/streak/cloak changes, active scaling, even cheat engine and gambling crates. None of these compare to the hate that has been generated for this patch.

You can understand why the reception is so bad. It's not just about youtubers or streamers overacting. It's about subs not having access to it, no matter how long they have been subbed. It's the lack of content Homestead brought to us. Honestly how hard is it to add PVP vendors with actual items and not RNG. Some new gear sets to break the meta.

It's about the blatant disregard from the devs to community feedback even on little things like weapons dying or ability to reshuffle characters at login. To larger community issues like tokens for loot at veteran level PVE content or exciting RNG mechanics in dungeons/trials so it's not always just a dps race. It's the constant nerfs to all classes except sorc. It's the undeniable advantage shields have over any other defence and magic range over melee dps. It's the disbelief from the NB sub community that we are about to fall over the edge and be completely gutted as a class. It's the constant gouging from the crownstore.

As far as content scale goes. It's about has big as IC was plus an extra class, except it's locked behind a paywall.

Personally I'll wait till it goes on special or does enter the crownstore. Because we know they never hold true to their word.

STEVIL

" It's about subs not having access to it, no matter how long they have been subbed"

I agree that some of the negativity is driven by this and that helps to blow other things out of proportion.

As a sub since launch, it doesnt bother me at all.
As someone who has run content with warden, etc i sm not unhappy eith the totality of this patch. What some may not rrmember is the game was not alwaysvrunning with major sustsin cuts it has now. It wasnt always hinged around every max dam or crit number. And the pve content currently tuned to thar maxdam setup can be adjusted ehen the impacts are seen.

Skies fo not fall just because some folks dont get what they feel entitled to have.

MehrunesFlagon

Except one thing.They did not adjust the pve content.

idk

This is not the first time Zos has made a major change to how the game was played.

1.6, which those that started in the second year would know as 2.0 did a major revamp. Complete change on how ultimate was generated. CP was added to the game and overall we were made significantly weaker in every way which CP was to make up for it.

While 1.6 did mess with our sustain, amongst everything else, it does not compare to how PTS is playing at the time. Essentially, Zos has decided the game needs to be played completely differently and disquizes it as it by saying this has always been the way ESO was to be played.

This is also not the first time Zos' senior devs have decided to go a different route and said it was always their vision. Ironically, they said it was their vision that we get our info from the environment, not from a UI as their reasoning for abandoning the original normal MMO style UI. Ironically zos is adding buffs and debuffs to the base UI with the upcoming patch, quietly admitting the visual queues do not always work as they need to.

Pretty much anyone who pushes PvE content is not pleased with these changes as a whole, the cost reduction changes in CP did not bring about much of an issue when they were announced. It is everything as a whole that has. Top raiders, the ones who top the leaderboards constantly, will survive though it may not be as fun. Moderate raiding guilds and casual raiding guilds will suffer the most which is a concern.

Galwylin

jircris11 wrote: »

colig wrote: »

I joined the game just before Shadows of the Hist launched, so I'm not entirely familiar with the whole history of the game. I am curious as to how previous updates compared in scale and reception to the upcoming Morrowind update.

well they are messing with sustain so people are up in a riot. Ironically this is the same thing that happened on every update. Today's mmo community is all about negativity, it is not like is was back with EQ and ultima where we enjoyed the expansions and did not go out of our way to act entitled. I tested all of the changes, and i am not worried to be honest. Morrowind will bring tons of changes, some good some bad and some meh.

Wait, don't you remember The Vision in EQ? That's something we don't have here. In EQ, they had a clear idea of what they wanted the game to be. If there's a vision in ESO it needs glasses. You can't pile on the pools and recovery a few months ago then come along and say resource management has always been a part of ESO. The rest of the sentence should have continued "until we crapped all over it". EQ could be so harsh and there was that one time they nert a class so badly it almost never recovered. But it didn't change all over the map every six months or so. It had... The Vision. I think ESO's comparable mantra could be Stumbles In The Dark. Its been three years and they are still trying to figure out what they want it to be. Now its going be the first and only game to unify PvE and PvP. Reach for the stars, guys, reach for the stars.

idk

Galwylin wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

colig wrote: »

I joined the game just before Shadows of the Hist launched, so I'm not entirely familiar with the whole history of the game. I am curious as to how previous updates compared in scale and reception to the upcoming Morrowind update.

well they are messing with sustain so people are up in a riot. Ironically this is the same thing that happened on every update. Today's mmo community is all about negativity, it is not like is was back with EQ and ultima where we enjoyed the expansions and did not go out of our way to act entitled. I tested all of the changes, and i am not worried to be honest. Morrowind will bring tons of changes, some good some bad and some meh.

Wait, don't you remember The Vision in EQ? That's something we don't have here. In EQ, they had a clear idea of what they wanted the game to be. If there's a vision in ESO it needs glasses. You can't pile on the pools and recovery a few months ago then come along and say resource management has always been a part of ESO. The rest of the sentence should have continued "until we crapped all over it". EQ could be so harsh and there was that one time they nert a class so badly it almost never recovered. But it didn't change all over the map every six months or so. It had... The Vision. I think ESO's comparable mantra could be Stumbles In The Dark. Its been three years and they are still trying to figure out what they want it to be. Now its going be the first and only game to unify PvE and PvP. Reach for the stars, guys, reach for the stars.

^^^ which I kind of alluded to in my post above. Zos masked changes they decide to make as it has always been their vision. I seriously doubt they have ever had a real vision based on the changes they have made.

One thing that was clear, when they realized the Vet ranks was a bad idea and chose to add the CP system to replace it, it took over a year to do so because they started implementing changes to the CP system well before CP was added and it still took another year to remove vet ranks. It was because they chose to do something and started making the changes but had not decided how they would manage removing vet ranks until a year later. Zos even admitted as much in their early responses on the subject, that they had not determine how to do it.

Really bad project management.

colig

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

This is not the first time Zos has made a major change to how the game was played.

1.6, which those that started in the second year would know as 2.0 did a major revamp. Complete change on how ultimate was generated. CP was added to the game and overall we were made significantly weaker in every way which CP was to make up for it.

While 1.6 did mess with our sustain, amongst everything else, it does not compare to how PTS is playing at the time. Essentially, Zos has decided the game needs to be played completely differently and disquizes it as it by saying this has always been the way ESO was to be played.

This is also not the first time Zos' senior devs have decided to go a different route and said it was always their vision. Ironically, they said it was their vision that we get our info from the environment, not from a UI as their reasoning for abandoning the original normal MMO style UI. Ironically zos is adding buffs and debuffs to the base UI with the upcoming patch, quietly admitting the visual queues do not always work as they need to.

Pretty much anyone who pushes PvE content is not pleased with these changes as a whole, the cost reduction changes in CP did not bring about much of an issue when they were announced. It is everything as a whole that has. Top raiders, the ones who top the leaderboards constantly, will survive though it may not be as fun. Moderate raiding guilds and casual raiding guilds will suffer the most which is a concern.

Nice recap. I find it really amusing that CP was intended to make up for the weaknesses caused by 1.6. Now CP has become too strong! It makes me wonder why they increased the CP cap if they were going to later complain it made everyone too powerful. Should just have kept it at 561.

colig

starkerealm wrote: »

Yes.

Actually, you were here for a much larger kick over, when leveled zones were pulled from the game, and everything was configured to scale to the player. In comparison, this is a fairly minor tweak that will affect players at cap. Non-50s will see some slight shifts to their ability costs (not always an increase), and some of their resource return abilities will be less impressive.

So, no, there have been much bigger releases than this.

One Tamriel wasn't too disruptive for me. I think Morrowind will affect the game in a much larger way due to the presence of the Warden.

KochDerDamonen

We'll see how substantial it is when it's here

notimetocare

STEVIL wrote: »

" It's about subs not having access to it, no matter how long they have been subbed"

I agree that some of the negativity is driven by this and that helps to blow other things out of proportion.

As a sub since launch, it doesnt bother me at all.
As someone who has run content with warden, etc i sm not unhappy eith the totality of this patch. What some may not rrmember is the game was not alwaysvrunning with major sustsin cuts it has now. It wasnt always hinged around every max dam or crit number. And the pve content currently tuned to thar maxdam setup can be adjusted ehen the impacts are seen.

Skies fo not fall just because some folks dont get what they feel entitled to have.

Pretty much the same. Ive played sub based mmos for near 15years(?) now and always had to buy expansions and classes lol

STEVIL

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Except one thing.They did not adjust the pve content.

And while they may not if their numbers show a match between their expected success rate and the new success rate after folks adjust to the new system (and adjust tactics beyond "just burn thru") it should be obvious that the adjustments to PVE top end difficulty, the re-tuning, could not be done first or even early in the PTS because they need to see where the final results of the changes put the new output levels.

i would not have ever expected the re-tuning of content to occur before the very end of PTS at best or more likely the weeks following going live. Simple fact is that is the easiest piece of the game to re-tune to dps changes one-at-a-time with minor switches to clocks and thresholds - no major rework of content or mechanics, just a few variables... but it needs to be guided by the final output readings and results.

ParaNostram

People thought One Tamriel was going to kill the game. People thought nerfing shields to 6 seconds was going to kill the Sorc. Both of these things proved wrong.

Have faith in ZOS and the beta testers. The principle behind the patch is solid, the details just need worked on and are being worked on.

starkerealm

colig wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yes.

Actually, you were here for a much larger kick over, when leveled zones were pulled from the game, and everything was configured to scale to the player. In comparison, this is a fairly minor tweak that will affect players at cap. Non-50s will see some slight shifts to their ability costs (not always an increase), and some of their resource return abilities will be less impressive.

So, no, there have been much bigger releases than this.

One Tamriel wasn't too disruptive for me. I think Morrowind will affect the game in a much larger way due to the presence of the Warden.

I think you're right. I think 1T was a much more substantial overhaul and change to the way the game actually plays. But, the addition of a new support class will shake up the way people look at the game more. Simply because there's no longer "one true healer" class, or "one true tank" class.

Tandor

jircris11 wrote: »

colig wrote: »

I joined the game just before Shadows of the Hist launched, so I'm not entirely familiar with the whole history of the game. I am curious as to how previous updates compared in scale and reception to the upcoming Morrowind update.

well they are messing with sustain so people are up in a riot. Ironically this is the same thing that happened on every update. Today's mmo community is all about negativity, it is not like is was back with EQ and ultima where we enjoyed the expansions and did not go out of our way to act entitled. I tested all of the changes, and i am not worried to be honest. Morrowind will bring tons of changes, some good some bad and some meh.

My thoughts exactly. It all depends as these things always do on both your playstyle (as to how far you are affected by the changes) and your temperament/approach to life (as to how adaptable/complaining you are). Personally I've had a look at the changes on the PTS and I'm completely relaxed over them.

It's only the very vocal minority that are complaining the loudest, again as always happens. What I have noticed is that the biggest complaints were when the patch notes came out, since the changes have been tried out on the PTS I've seen an increasing proportion of the forum posts being more positive.

playsforfun

yes it happens around every 6 months

Aquanova

This is one of the most impactful updates so far other than 1.6 which gave us the CP system, but that didn't have such a stark contrast from the previous version of the game as Morrowind does. Alot of people are upset with these changes and I don't blame them, this is alot to adjust to.

Something like this"balance update"should have been phased in through multiple updates to allow for easier adjustment and let us just enjoy the new content. You may find yourself logging in to find you have to scrap your entire build or you may just need a few adjustments to gear and game play.

I personally was looking forward to just leveling a new Warden, but i can't just leave my other 10 characters in a state of disarray as I may need them to do PvE content. Some fair better than others which is also bothersome to me as it indicates ZOS bias against and for certain classes.

I'll just have to wait and see what the final product is when Morrowind goes live to see how things look I guess.

ObsidianMichi

Stick with us awhile. You'll see these threads come again, and with much the same flavor and foot stomping as they're doing now.

Sometimes, it happens with even a minor nerf. There were threads saying the game was dead and Endgame raiding was over 5ver when the proc sets got nerfed. Then there was the time they said it was dead when the Imperial City dropped and PvErs complained that "ZOS WAS JUST SENDING THEM INTO PVP TO BE GANKED AND DIE!!!!!", plus all the rage over the Tel Var stones. Let's not talk about the CP changes, or the CP grinders, or One Tamriel, or the Veteran Levels each. and. every. time. it. adjusted. up. Oh, yeah, Craglorn and nirnhoned gear. Or the cries at launch about the Beta Testers having a distinct advantage over everyone else.

Oh yeah, remember, CP killed PvP. Completely. Don't go to Cyrodil. It is dead, dead as a doornail.

No, the game has gone through so many massive changes before this one. Despite what everyone's saying, this isn't even the biggest shift. There used to be leveled zones. There used to be only fifty levels. Then, we had Veteran ranks. There were no monster sets in the Veteran dungeons. Overland sets never dropped. Crafted gear used to be a level higher than normal gear, so whites were actually greens. There was no thieving mechanic. You weren't here for the outcry when all the houses in town got LOCKED, and the P2W cries about skill lines being hidden behind paywalls. Vampires used to be unkillable, literally. Who can forget the time vampires locked down Cyrodil and prevented Covenant from even entering the zone? (It was more than one and less than three. Yeah, it was two. Just two.) Sorcs used to be the bottom of the barrel, and everyone decried them useless except in PvP. The Mag DK with a Dark Elf was the only class you should ever consider for DPS. Now, they're the go to magicka DPS and they used to be even stronger. Some people with a Sorc could solo trials, back before soloing trials was a thing.

And this? This is only the tip of the iceberg.

People on the threads declare the game dead every three to six months. Sit back, pop some popcorn, and strap in. And... don't take it too seriously. The drama llama makes its rounds, people adapt, and we move on.

starkerealm

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Vampires used to be unkillable, literally.

Mmm, sweet AOE cap tears.

ObsidianMichi

starkerealm wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Vampires used to be unkillable, literally.

Mmm, sweet AOE cap tears.

Who can forget the Pact Empress, Daenerys Targaryen, the infamous vampire who killed 40 players (or more) all at the same time.

Voxicity

"This is the most game changing update ever" say the guys who have been playing 6 months

Galwylin

In ESO Live, Rich said that they weren't adjusting bosses even though they will probably be overly powerful. So, we know they know this is a nerf. They know this nerf will affect being able to do content sucessfully. And we know they aren't adjusting content. Even on the off chance that they do decide to adjust it, it will probably be six months of this to a year. So you think something might be wrong but you're not going to do anything about it. Alright. Nice.

starkerealm

Galwylin wrote: »

In ESO Live, Rich said that they weren't adjusting bosses even though they will probably be overly powerful. So, we know they know this is a nerf. They know this nerf will affect being able to do content sucessfully. And we know they aren't adjusting content. Even on the off chance that they do decide to adjust it, it will probably be six months of this to a year. So you think something might be wrong but you're not going to do anything about it. Alright. Nice.

Probably because the community cried wolf over the last two regen nerf passes. If this one actually gnaws our face off, it'll be our own damn fault.

kewl

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Stick with us awhile. You'll see these threads come again, and with much the same flavor and foot stomping as they're doing now.

Sometimes, it happens with even a minor nerf. There were threads saying the game was dead and Endgame raiding was over 5ver when the proc sets got nerfed. Then there was the time they said it was dead when the Imperial City dropped and PvErs complained that "ZOS WAS JUST SENDING THEM INTO PVP TO BE GANKED AND DIE!!!!!", plus all the rage over the Tel Var stones. Let's not talk about the CP changes, or the CP grinders, or One Tamriel, or the Veteran Levels each. and. every. time. it. adjusted. up. Oh, yeah, Craglorn and nirnhoned gear. Or the cries at launch about the Beta Testers having a distinct advantage over everyone else.

Oh yeah, remember, CP killed PvP. Completely. Don't go to Cyrodil. It is dead, dead as a doornail.

No, the game has gone through so many massive changes before this one. Despite what everyone's saying, this isn't even the biggest shift. There used to be leveled zones. There used to be only fifty levels. Then, we had Veteran ranks. There were no monster sets in the Veteran dungeons. Overland sets never dropped. Crafted gear used to be a level higher than normal gear, so whites were actually greens. There was no thieving mechanic. You weren't here for the outcry when all the houses in town got LOCKED, and the P2W cries about skill lines being hidden behind paywalls. Vampires used to be unkillable, literally. Who can forget the time vampires locked down Cyrodil and prevented Covenant from even entering the zone? (It was more than one and less than three. Yeah, it was two. Just two.) Sorcs used to be the bottom of the barrel, and everyone decried them useless except in PvP. The Mag DK with a Dark Elf was the only class you should ever consider for DPS. Now, they're the go to magicka DPS and they used to be even stronger. Some people with a Sorc could solo trials, back before soloing trials was a thing.

And this? This is only the tip of the iceberg.

People on the threads declare the game dead every three to six months. Sit back, pop some popcorn, and strap in. And... don't take it too seriously. The drama llama makes its rounds, people adapt, and we move on.

Sounds like you're willing to fund ZOS through their learning curve. That's very generous of you. I'm not that charitable.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Galwylin wrote: »

In ESO Live, Rich said that they weren't adjusting bosses even though they will probably be overly powerful. So, we know they know this is a nerf. They know this nerf will affect being able to do content sucessfully. And we know they aren't adjusting content. Even on the off chance that they do decide to adjust it, it will probably be six months of this to a year. So you think something might be wrong but you're not going to do anything about it. Alright. Nice.

It is easier just to wait for the cp increases over time, then to nerf the bosses down now. Besides if they pull the bosses down, it is just sooner they have to nerf everyone again because of the power creep....