Removing Classes

Sykotical

Classes get turned on their head enough as it is so I think we really should just do away with them after all.
Here's my proposal, short and simple, for a character development system that gives you the ability to build your class.

We open up all skill lines for all characters and add more skill lines. A player can learn a limited number of skill lines at a time. Each permutation of known skill lines has a predetermined "class" title.

Or, allow you to learn every skill line in the game through leveling, quests, or otherwise, and you have the option to elevate a few skill lines (aka specialization) from minor to major, again determining your class title, but also empowering those abilities most used.

Now, peers have a general idea of your repertoire via your class title (even though all players can use practically every ability in the game, as in other TES games) as you will rely on abilities from your major skill lines as they are most potent in practice.

As for balance, just have a bot auto-nerf abilities based on global usage and slotting statistics. That gets rid of your cookie cutter builds.

KochDerDamonen

Could have gone with the perfectly fine idea of a number of base stats that connect to various skills of weapon, defensive and utility varieties and health/magicka/stamina plus enchanted armors that can offer passive stat bonuses and interesting procs/activatable effects as in every singleplayer title before Skyrim...

But I guess we can't get too different from a standard MMO setup, can we?

SanSan

I'm too tired to understand your big words and i really tried.
Put me down for this idea of yours that i don't understand.

Sykotical

@KochDerDamonen I've wanted that and spellcrafting for this game in the past, but now I'm hoping for something that would allow the skill line concept to remain in order to restrict the chaos of a classless system . Still, the current classes would remain intact for people who want no change, but it would give my Nightblade the ability to shoot lightning.

@SanSan I know, I don't talk like that. By simple I meant I wouldn't waste my time going into detail. I just wanted the idea out there so I know I tried.

Without my thesaurus and run-on sentences:

• You have access to all skill lines
• The computer gives you a "Class" title based on your favorite skill lines
• Abilities in your favorite skill lines are buffed
• Abilities that are slotted by too many players get a nerf

F7sus4

Removing classes will still form a new meta that will also be criticized for being "cookie build" etc. It will become even more homogenized. We now have with asymetrical gameplay with classes, which is good because it promotes diversity - each class has special and unique features.

SydneyGrey

Interesting possibilities. I'd have my dragonknight, but with the ability to summon a bear like the warden. LOL.

Sovaso

This game is ruined enough

Majeure

Such diversity when everyone and anyone is playing MagSorc.

Cadbury

While I like the idea of a classless system, having an algorithm dictate the decision over whether or not certain skills should be nerfed seems like a recipe for disaster.

SydneyGrey

Majeure wrote: »

Such diversity when everyone and anyone is playing MagSorc.

Everybody has the ability RIGHT NOW to play MagSorc. Literally everybody COULD be playing MagSorcs if they wanted to, only a lot of people don't want to. All they have to do is make a new character.

Or was I misinterpreting what you said? It's 3 a.m. here, and I'm super tired, so maybe I'm just not understanding stuff. I need to sleep.

Majeure

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Majeure wrote: »

Such diversity when everyone and anyone is playing MagSorc.

Everybody has the ability RIGHT NOW to play MagSorc. Literally everybody COULD be playing MagSorcs if they wanted to, only a lot of people don't want to. All they have to do is make a new character.

Or was I misinterpreting what you said? It's 3 a.m. here, and I'm super tired, so maybe I'm just not understanding stuff. I need to sleep.

I was referring to the current system. Everyone is already playing MagSorc, diversity is out the window.

Magdalina

And we'll have BoL spamming streaking gods with Battle Roar proc'ing every time they toggle Overload on.

No thank you. The game is invested too far into classes, for that to change they'd have to re work pretty much every single skill, or put restrictions on combinations you can choose(which is basicalloy what we have now). And frankly I like it that way, there're unique things you cannot have unless you play a different class, that makes it more interesting and encourages people to play >1 character. Without softcaps and classes we'd simply have one build to rule them all.

Faulgor

That's how it should have been from the beginning. They had a good idea going with the 5-skill-slot restriction and tying passives to slotted active skills, so people don't benefit from having all the skills at once.

Now I fear it's too late. People are losing their minds over a relatively little change in sustain gameplay, everything would go up in flames if you take away their classes.

Sykotical

Cadbury wrote: »

While I like the idea of a classless system, having an algorithm dictate the decision over whether or not certain skills should be nerfed seems like a recipe for disaster.

I thought it'd be no worse than FOTM builds being upended every quarter by the devs. I guess auto-nerf could be restricted to local statistics to reduce the effectiveness of mindless aoe spamming zergs and let the devs handle balance, but when op builds are popularized it's necessary to rein them in and the sooner the better.

If publicized builds immediately become obsolete due to their own popularity, maybe people wouldn't search for the best build to use according to everyone else.

Faulgor wrote: »

That's how it should have been from the beginning. They had a good idea going with the 5-skill-slot restriction and tying passives to slotted active skills, so people don't benefit from having all the skills at once.

Now I fear it's too late. People are losing their minds over a relatively little change in sustain gameplay, everything would go up in flames if you take away their classes.

I know it'd be as jarring for those people as it was for me when they removed most weapon speed modifiers from the game, but their current build would remain intact. It's just that everyone around them would become something else.

@F7sus4 @Magdalina See the last sentence of the original post. If you want to make a case then you should focus on the possibility of beating a boss one day and getting murdered by it the next.
Still, as I'm sure you know, the devs are constantly re-balancing the game in it's current state so the only difference would be that you wouldn't be limited by class.

F7sus4

I know what I should and it's not the story you're dreaming. The idea of skills changing their power via auto-bot is utterly garbage and renders all leaderboards results pointless since each Trials raid/vMSA run will be played in completely different meta environment. For this factor solely Critical hits from mobs/bosses were not allowed in PvE - to avoid randomness. A factor you're trying to boost through the roof with that sci-fi oniric idea.

Faulgor

Sykotical wrote: »

I know it'd be as jarring for those people as it was for me when they removed most weapon speed modifiers from the game, but their current build would remain intact. It's just that everyone around them would become something else.

Man, I miss my berserker Orc. Only reason I chose NB for him was Haste.
Since then everything has been homogenized into DoTs + animation canceling a spamable.

SnubbS

Sykotical wrote: »

As for balance, just have a bot auto-nerf abilities based on global usage and slotting statistics. That gets rid of your cookie cutter builds.

That's the worst gaming idea I've ever heard and it honestly makes me feel like you're someone who has never played a game before. "Would you look at that, when players stack weapon damage and high stam they tend to use Surprise Attack at a very high rate—let's nerf the ability until their forced into using something else." That scenario, with every ability and item set in the game—chaos. Also, in this system an underperforming (****ing awful) ability like pre-homestead Dragon blood would've never gotten buffed. It honestly might have been the worst class skill in Elder Scrolls—and with your balancing system—because nearly every MagDK would slot it—it would've remained a horrible skill.

R1DD1CK

ESO is Dying.

Wifeaggro13

Sykotical wrote: »

Classes get turned on their head enough as it is so I think we really should just do away with them after all.
Here's my proposal, short and simple, for a character development system that gives you the ability to build your class.

We open up all skill lines for all characters and add more skill lines. A player can learn a limited number of skill lines at a time. Each permutation of known skill lines has a predetermined "class" title.

Or, allow you to learn every skill line in the game through leveling, quests, or otherwise, and you have the option to elevate a few skill lines (aka specialization) from minor to major, again determining your class title, but also empowering those abilities most used.

Now, peers have a general idea of your repertoire via your class title (even though all players can use practically every ability in the game, as in other TES games) as you will rely on abilities from your major skill lines as they are most potent in practice.

As for balance, just have a bot auto-nerf abilities based on global usage and slotting statistics. That gets rid of your cookie cutter builds.

So glad your not a mmo designer. Your idea is dumb and will not work lol. They already dumbed this game into drool mouth mode.

Sykotical

SnubbS wrote: »

Sykotical wrote: »

As for balance, just have a bot auto-nerf abilities based on global usage and slotting statistics. That gets rid of your cookie cutter builds.

That's the worst gaming idea I've ever heard and it honestly makes me feel like you're someone who has never played a game before. "Would you look at that, when players stack weapon damage and high stam they tend to use Surprise Attack at a very high rate—let's nerf the ability until their forced into using something else." That scenario, with every ability and item set in the game—chaos. Also, in this system an underperforming (****ing awful) ability like pre-homestead Dragon blood would've never gotten buffed. It honestly might have been the worst class skill in Elder Scrolls—and with your balancing system—because nearly every MagDK would slot it—it would've remained a horrible skill.

I said I'd keep it simple, but the bot doesn't have to be simple.
Whether the game is balanced by a human or a bot, it still gets done. The bot is just quicker. You people choose your abilities on whether or not you win. Auto-nerfing an "I win" button gets results. The devs can still fine tune the game.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

So glad your not a mmo designer. Your idea is dumb and will not work lol. They already dumbed this game into drool mouth mode.

I'm assuming by "drool mouth" you mean easy. The point of giving the computer the ability to balance the game to keep the game from being easy for the drones who just want to mindlessly smash an "I win" button. Or are you saying that the idea of classless mmorpg's is dumb? Because that's simply close-minded.

Betheny

Cadbury wrote: »

While I like the idea of a classless system, having an algorithm dictate the decision over whether or not certain skills should be nerfed seems like a recipe for disaster.

Although it's pretty much the same end result as the current system where we let PVPers dictate which skill gets nerfed...

Cadbury

Betheny wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

While I like the idea of a classless system, having an algorithm dictate the decision over whether or not certain skills should be nerfed seems like a recipe for disaster.

Although it's pretty much the same end result as the current system where we let PVPers dictate which skill gets nerfed...

Only in this scenario, we'll have a dev-approved computer program controlling the "meta" for us.


Guess that'll put streamers out of the job

Basically, it's Skynet for ESO.

notimetocare

R1DD1CK wrote: »

ESO is Dying.

After 100 posts of the same thing, why haven't you uninstalled and logged out of the forums as well?

Koensol

To the people that say we shouldn't have any classes: Do you really not see this kind of system would lead to 3 cookie cutter builds? Tank, healer and dps. From all those skills, there would always be 1 best combo, because there are no limitations. Classes add the necesary variation.

dday3six

Sounds like OP is salty because their dumpster fire of a homebrew build lacks viability.

Classes would create build diversity if they had more distinctive and viable options within the class skills. However since so many great skills are from lines everyone can use, builds come off as homogenized. Removing classes and thus giving everyone access to everything will not help, but rather push toward a one build to rule them all future.

And the highly likely to be exploited nerf bot is pretty much admission of how terrible an idea this is...

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO

Guys like us. Can only dream, it will never happen - They *** up from the beginning Not been true to ESO. And just wanted to be another ala wow game.

Though as one of the few games that ever cut have pulled it off - They desiceded to be a wow wannerbe

Browiseth

this is certainly something the community wants, with how they complain that the class they picked is different in some way to another's regularly

then again, a lot of them don't seem to understand the concept of character classes in videogames, so...

i could go either way myself

idk

Sykotical wrote: »

Classes get turned on their head enough as it is so I think we really should just do away with them after all.
Here's my proposal, short and simple, for a character development system that gives you the ability to build your class.

We open up all skill lines for all characters and add more skill lines. A player can learn a limited number of skill lines at a time. Each permutation of known skill lines has a predetermined "class" title.

Or, allow you to learn every skill line in the game through leveling, quests, or otherwise, and you have the option to elevate a few skill lines (aka specialization) from minor to major, again determining your class title, but also empowering those abilities most used.

Now, peers have a general idea of your repertoire via your class title (even though all players can use practically every ability in the game, as in other TES games) as you will rely on abilities from your major skill lines as they are most potent in practice.

As for balance, just have a bot auto-nerf abilities based on global usage and slotting statistics. That gets rid of your cookie cutter builds.

OP clearly sees the major downside of this forcing one build for all dps as he puts in a bot that nerfs skills used most often.

The other major downside in this is you never know how good or bad you will be from day to day. One day your rocking 50k dps and the next day your hitting like a wet noodle because others are using the same skills you are.

It is just a bad idea made worse. A homogenization of everything with a constant nerf bat to keep everyone guessing from day to day what will be even moderately effective.

No thank you.

AlnilamE

I like the fact that my characters have distinct classes, and I would like to keep it that way.

Didgerion

Sykotical wrote: »

Classes get turned on their head enough as it is so I think we really should just do away with them after all.
Here's my proposal, short and simple, for a character development system that gives you the ability to build your class.

We open up all skill lines for all characters and add more skill lines. A player can learn a limited number of skill lines at a time. Each permutation of known skill lines has a predetermined "class" title.

Or, allow you to learn every skill line in the game through leveling, quests, or otherwise, and you have the option to elevate a few skill lines (aka specialization) from minor to major, again determining your class title, but also empowering those abilities most used.

Now, peers have a general idea of your repertoire via your class title (even though all players can use practically every ability in the game, as in other TES games) as you will rely on abilities from your major skill lines as they are most potent in practice.

As for balance, just have a bot auto-nerf abilities based on global usage and slotting statistics. That gets rid of your cookie cutter builds.

It is too late to get rid of classes now. Players are bounded to them.

Also there is lack of new content and when players are bored of the current content they roll an alt to try a different play-style.

The game is not ready to get rid of classes and never will.

But with these morrowind nerfs wich are removing the class defining abilities makes classes look similar.

ZOS game is not ready to get rid of classes - please keep classes diverse!.

Osteos

How about we go a year without reinventing the game. I would like to see new lands and content. Let's move forward.