When ESO gets the Environment Right

ArchMikem

One of my biggest nitpicks with ESO was the sparse, scaled down feeling to the seemingly expansive world map. Of course I understand that detailing, props etc. need to remain within a certain limit in order to maximize performance, but still I'd love to walk into an area and feel like it'd be easy to get lost in the wild world. And while trudging outside of Daggerfall on one of my secondary characters, I noticed a certain place that actually gets that feeling right.



The trees are large and dense enough, the vegetation adding to the scenery, that view right there looks like a legitimate forest, a woodland that takes you away from the Breton streets and gives you a feeling of being in the thick of mother nature with nothing else around you for miles. It's a nice illusion, one I wish was much more common. It brings me back to my initial imaginings of ESO years ago when I first heard of it, how I thought there'd be Skyrim and Oblivion levels of wilderness between towns. I've also noticed though that ZOS has been upping there game in the design of their maps as each new DLC is released, so here's hoping they've made some incredible magic with Vvardenfell.

static_recharge

Very nice screenshot! There's been a few other picturesque scenes I've found. If you're in the Alik'ir Desert, find a high vantage point out in the desert and pan your camera around with view distance set as high as possible. It's beautiful and gives you the feeling that it really is an open desert.

*Crosses fingers for Vvardenfell* I know they are going to do an amazing job!

AlienatedGoat

Sometimes you just can't help but stop and marvel at the beauty of some of the scenery in this game. It really is one sharp looking game.

faerigirl

Phage wrote: »

Sometimes you just can't help but stop and marvel at the beauty of some of the scenery in this game. It really is one sharp looking game.

Seriously!

To me, Auridon is stunningly beautiful when you get out of the city and into the countryside.

Great screen shot OP!!

Gothlander

What

ArchMikem wrote: »

One of my biggest nitpicks with ESO was the sparse, scaled down feeling to the seemingly expansive world map. Of course I understand that detailing, props etc. need to remain within a certain limit in order to maximize performance, but still I'd love to walk into an area and feel like it'd be easy to get lost in the wild world. And while trudging outside of Daggerfall on one of my secondary characters, I noticed a certain place that actually gets that feeling right.



The trees are large and dense enough, the vegetation adding to the scenery, that view right there looks like a legitimate forest, a woodland that takes you away from the Breton streets and gives you a feeling of being in the thick of mother nature with nothing else around you for miles. It's a nice illusion, one I wish was much more common. It brings me back to my initial imaginings of ESO years ago when I first heard of it, how I thought there'd be Skyrim and Oblivion levels of wilderness between towns. I've also noticed though that ZOS has been upping there game in the design of their maps as each new DLC is released, so here's hoping they've made some incredible magic with Vvardenfell.

What is Khajit doing in Glenumbra?

Nestor

You know Maiq? Almost every place he hangs out, and there are usually 5 to 6 of these in each zone, are just what you describe, a beautiful place to just stand and take in the view. Lot of areas in Grahtwood and Malabal Tor also fit the bill. In fact, I can't think of a zone that does not have places that I still to this day, after thousands of hours, just stop and look around enjoying the scenery.

It's mind boggling to think it was all created by hand from scratch. OK, there are some tools that can automate some of the landscape creation and perhaps plant generation and placement, but there is still a lot of hands on work in the world space.

crashen17b14_ESO

The only place that has really felt like a great big open world, rather than a series of individual pretty scenes on a railroad is Cyrodiil.

I think there are two contributing factors to the sense of almost claustrophobic smallness of the world:
1. The ubiquitous presence of Wayshrines. There is no reason to really go anywhere on foot. The convenience is great, but it leaves the world feeling smaller and diminished.
2. The linear nature of the zones and storytelling. Each location is a diorama meant to be a backdrop for a quest, whether its where you pick it up or perform a task. Its all very pretty, but it also feels very purpose-built and artificial. Nothing feels organically grown or placed.

Thats the only thing I dont like about the world. Despite being gorgeous, it feels... flat. Everything feels very deliberately placed to create a scene, but all it is, is a scene. The most egregious examples are npcs fighting.

They take turns swinging at each other with all the impact of whiffle bats, until a player gets involved. Then one falls over dead (despite being at full health) and the other begins attacking you.

ArchMikem

static_recharge wrote: »

Very nice screenshot! There's been a few other picturesque scenes I've found. If you're in the Alik'ir Desert, find a high vantage point out in the desert and pan your camera around with view distance set as high as possible. It's beautiful and gives you the feeling that it really is an open desert.

*Crosses fingers for Vvardenfell* I know they are going to do an amazing job!

Something like this maybe?



There was a sandstorm at the time so the brown haze of it faded out the distance making it seem like a truly empty desert in the backdrop.

Vanthras79

What ever teams worked on the improvements to the delves years ago need props. Delves used to be too similar, now they are more dynamic.

Vanthras79

My one criticism would be around the generic weather patters (the rain and snow) seem too tame and unrealistic. What i mean is when a real storm goes by, they are unique in nature (winds, direction of down poor, thunder, etc.) These rain and snow storms see like there is only one model they use per weather type, there should be multiple weather sequences per weather type to make weather a more dynamic and immersive happening in the world.

Just food for though.

What do you guys think?

[tagging these people as well: @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_KaiSchober, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom --please show this topic to the right team, Thanks!]

Vanthras79

Also, I know the Great Forest in Cyrodiil is still ~800 years away from how it is in ES IV, but the size of the trees are underwhelming to be called the Great Forest. I know things take time to grow, but is there a lore reason why they are so tiny at this time, was the Great Forest just planted years ago in the 2E?

[This may be a question I may re-ask the Loremaster when he has time]

AlienatedGoat

Vanthras79 wrote: »

Also, I know the Great Forest in Cyrodiil is still ~800 years away from how it is in ES IV, but the size of the trees are underwhelming to be called the Great Forest. I know things take time to grow, but is there a lore reason why they are so tiny at this time, was the Great Forest just planted years ago in the 2E?

[This may be a question I may re-ask the Loremaster when he has time]

I vaguely remember reading something about the jungles of Cyrodiil being wiped off the map by the Aedra. Maybe that had something to do with the trees? Vegetation gets wiped away, so other trees take root?

Edit: Yeah, supposedly Talos used CHIM to change the landscape of Cyrodiil from jungle to forest. At least according to Mankar Camoran and his writings.

EditEdit: Then again that could all just be a myth, because Tiber Septim isn't supposed to be born for another 300 years in the ESO era of 2E 583. So to answer your initial question...maybe just a fudge up on the part of the devs? :P I don't see a lore-based explanation for this mystery.

rotaugen454

I just got a new desktop and noticed it auto-set everything to ultra. I'm back to walking around instead of riding as fast as I can so I can take in the sights.

hmsdragonfly

Vanthras79 wrote: »

My one criticism would be around the generic weather patters (the rain and snow) seem too tame and unrealistic. What i mean is when a real storm goes by, they are unique in nature (winds, direction of down poor, thunder, etc.) These rain and snow storms see like there is only one model they use per weather type, there should be multiple weather sequences per weather type to make weather a more dynamic and immersive happening in the world.

Just food for though.

What do you guys think?

Well, it's not possible due to engine's limitation.

MLGProPlayer

Witcher 3 had the best environments I've ever seen in a game. Check out its forests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6J1gH0chA0

Now, that kind of detail won't be possible in an MMO any time soon because the game would lag like ***.

Sharee

I wish they would take the world, blow it up by a factor of ten, and then put it back down. It would reduce the density of "points of interest" making exploration meaningful, allow you to actually get lost, have proper forests, etc.

I mean, the time you can take to cross a zone from zonewall to zonewall can in some places be measured in seconds. It makes the whole Tamriel feel more like a theme park than real believable world.

On top of that, i would remove all but very few wayshrines to make people actually travel to get to places, but i understand that wouldn't be too popular

Bax

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Now, that kind of detail won't be possible in an MMO any time soon because the game would lag like ***.

Connection related things causes lags. Environment is rendered on your PC, there is no connection involved. The only way it could cause "lags" or rather FPS drops is at times when a lot of things has to be rendered and your PC is not powerful enough to handle it (some huge spawns, a lot of players at one place casting skills at same time), but those things are not directly environment related.

This is nice article explaining difference between lag (which would not be affected by environment upgrade) and FPS drop (mistakenly called lag sometimes, this can be affected by environment upgrade):
https://www.howtogeek.com/142193/htg-explains-why-lag-and-low-fps-arent-the-same-thing/

Rev Rielle

static_recharge wrote: »

...
If you're in the Alik'ir Desert, find a high vantage point out in the desert and pan your camera around with view distance set as high as possible. It's beautiful and gives you the feeling that it really is an open desert.
...

I agree! I love the desert. Some of my favourites I've been lucky enough to capture are:
*The middle capture is great hopefully for that 'open desert' feel.

menedhyn

Sharee wrote: »

...i would remove all but very few wayshrines to make people actually travel to get to places, but i understand that wouldn't be too popular

Perhaps not, but as someone who enjoys the journey much more than the destination, I know what you mean

Rev Rielle wrote: »

...I love the desert.

Your pictures are making me love the desert! Stunning.

Dreepa

Yeah, the design of the maps is totally "Go from start to finish, pick up quests, and do one area after the other" -MMO old school style.

Someone at ZOS made a wrong decision here, when the game was in concept phase. Using the name of "Elder Scrolls" is coming with such high expectations towards world, size, diversity and openness, that this should have lead to a much more open world.

Well, now with 1T they did that, by auto scaling the leveling, but the zones layouts are still from the old approach of "going linear from start to finish trhough each zone". The leveldesign clearly is made to "guide" your path through the content. And then there are only few exit and entry points between the zones, mostly at the start and the end of the content line.

This is not what TES is about. But it is also nothing that will ever change in this game. Maybe in ESO2

We can still hope for new added zones in the future though. Maybe Morrowind goes a bit more in the true TES layout direction.


I think what happened was basically: "Hey, lets do DAOC2, but with a really strong brand for high visibility and reach".
It should have been the other way around. Do a real TES online with the tech learnings from DAOC.

Rev Rielle

Thanks @menedhyn! I spend a lot of time in the desert there (mainly harvesting these days, and no I won't share where!), and hence I have a lot of 'paintings' as I like to call them.


I agree @Dreepa , if ever there was a franchise that screamed Open-world MMO, it was The Elder Scrolls.

Well back before release I remember development talking about making it a more 'generic MMO' and my heart sank. Don't get me wrong I still love the game, but would have adored it to have been a vast open world, where the further you traveled from the major cities/towns the more dangerous it got. Still nothing's perfect, I'm happy for what we have.

.

Drummerx04

One nitpick about your assertions of skyrim and oblivion, their wildernesses weren't actually that big either. The main difference is that there is less quest related stuff in a given area for skyrim, and without mods you can move A LOT faster in ESO.

Combine this with all the small towns and settlements in addition to the larger towns and it starts to feel a little cluttered.

I'd also argue that the 3rd person vantage point also throws off the perspective of scale in ESO.

I'm with you, it feels a little small at times, but I also recognize it's because I basically know where everything is and the fastest way to get there, have a max speed mount with rapids and cyro's ward, and every wayshrine revealed.

Go everywhere on foot without major expedition and the world will start to feel significantly larger.

Dreepa

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Go everywhere on foot without major expedition and the world will start to feel significantly larger.

True, but the layout still is often kind of a "big lane" with some "arms" going to the specific questing areas.

It is not really like that open vastness you had in Skyrim.

Even in MMOs I really had that sense of openness with Everquest, when you went from one side of the continent (Queynos) to the other (Freeport).
When you saw a forest, you really had the feeling that this is a forest, where upon entering, you are dragged into a whole new world. Same with the area in the south of DAOC's Hibernia, can't remember the name. A forest was actually a forest! Inside another zone.

I think Cyrodil goes a little bit in that direction, but unfortunately it is a no-go area for carebears

For the other zones, it is not really feeling like someone wanted to build a world, but more like someone was looking for a theme, and then stuck with that theme throughout the whole zone. And that is why we have one area only ashland, one area only forrest, one area only swamp etc.

Sengra

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Witcher 3 had the best environments I've ever seen in a game. Check out its forests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6J1gH0chA0

Now, that kind of detail won't be possible in an MMO any time soon because the game would lag like ***.

Well, there is Black Desert. But the FPS are horrible (at least for me), that's true.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=8ulknjCkRK0

MakoFore

gorgeous-

what CPU setup are you running? I'm saving for a computer - for the sole purpose of this game- and wanted to know as much as i can about what to get. talk to me like I'm an idiot- which i am when it comes to computers. i have a budget of about 2000 dollars US- is that enough for me to get a game going that looks like that - with a reasonable frame rate?

Bax

MakoFore wrote: »

gorgeous-

what CPU setup are you running? I'm saving for a computer - for the sole purpose of this game- and wanted to know as much as i can about what to get. talk to me like I'm an idiot- which i am when it comes to computers. i have a budget of about 2000 dollars US- is that enough for me to get a game going that looks like that - with a reasonable frame rate?

Tbh, you can get solid video editing and 3D modelling "nearly professional" desktop for such prize. Very solid gaming desktop goes for less than half of that. You can get even lower if you are able to build it yourself. So yeah $2000 will definitely buy great gaming desktop able to run possibly any game.

(Unless prices for PCs are significantly higher in the US than they are in Europe)

ArchMikem

Bax wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

gorgeous-

what CPU setup are you running? I'm saving for a computer - for the sole purpose of this game- and wanted to know as much as i can about what to get. talk to me like I'm an idiot- which i am when it comes to computers. i have a budget of about 2000 dollars US- is that enough for me to get a game going that looks like that - with a reasonable frame rate?

Tbh, you can get solid video editing and 3D modelling "nearly professional" desktop for such prize. Very solid gaming desktop goes for less than half of that. You can get even lower if you are able to build it yourself. So yeah $2000 will definitely buy great gaming desktop able to run possibly any game.

(Unless prices for PCs are significantly higher in the US than they are in Europe)

I dont play on pc, but i have a copy, and when i jumped in to look around my pc set ESO to everything at high, and my pc is just a prebuilt through BestBuy for $825. For a high end pc youd only need to spend something over 1,000 for the top components.

Bax

Just small note to add to my previous comment - I have laptop specifically purchased for gaming (I really need mobility otherwise I would go for desktop) which costed me like 1700€. It is a bit over 2 years old and it can still play the most of the newest games at highest settings. Now consider that high end gaming laptops costs about 2-3 times more than equivalent desktop build (portability is expensive ). So yeah, that is just to demonstrate that with $2000 you are well beyond what is needed for great gaming desktop You will have enough money left to spend on some good 144Hz screens

Sengra

MakoFore wrote: »

gorgeous-

what CPU setup are you running? I'm saving for a computer - for the sole purpose of this game- and wanted to know as much as i can about what to get. talk to me like I'm an idiot- which i am when it comes to computers. i have a budget of about 2000 dollars US- is that enough for me to get a game going that looks like that - with a reasonable frame rate?

My laptop is pretty old by now - I can run the game at medium settings, but it's very blurry and fps are bad, so I'm not really the person to ask. Maybe you could look at the BDO sub reddit if you want to know the right specs.

MLGProPlayer

MakoFore wrote: »

gorgeous-

what CPU setup are you running? I'm saving for a computer - for the sole purpose of this game- and wanted to know as much as i can about what to get. talk to me like I'm an idiot- which i am when it comes to computers. i have a budget of about 2000 dollars US- is that enough for me to get a game going that looks like that - with a reasonable frame rate?

CPU: i7 7700k
GPU: GTX 1080TI