How can non combat items become more meaningful?

Dreepa

Hi,

so I've been thinking about this every now and then when playing the game: It is all so much about combat and going to the quest markers. Yet we have a million containers to loot but really just mostly junk or non relevant stuff in there for the most part.
The atmosphere of the game just shouts in your face: Old school role play game, but there is no old school role play game mechanics that would add to this.

Sure, there are some traps here and there. But they deal non significant damage mostly, and you can disarm them without any requirements (not like D&D Online, where you need to have the skill and the tools to disarm a trap).

Also we have a food mechanic, but you rarely need to buff yourself in solo content. So the ration between actually having to gather and cook and consuming the food seems a bit weird. I am drowning in drinks (and food...)

The game could probably do so much more in regards to items that serve purpose. Anyone remember the good old RPGs where you actually had to have a rope with you to climb a wall, or you needed a potion of jump. To get across water with your heavy armor you needed a potion of swim. To get the treasure that you read about in a note you needed a shovel.

In the old RPGs you actually spend time at the merchants to prepare yourself not just for combat alone, but for any other challenges and danger or opportunities you might face. This started with simply having torches to see in very dark caves, but could also be about major topics like blessing an item in a church and using it to open a door that needs a sacrifice at an altar in front of it.

Some games also have nice food mechanics, like grim dawn, where your health regen is only good when you are well fed.
The whole justice system was exactly one of those really cool RPG additions the game could use more of, I think.

QuebraRegra

Dreepa wrote: »

Hi,

Sure, there are some traps here and there. But they deal non significant damage mostly, and you can disarm them without any requirements (not like D&D Online, where you need to have the skill and the tools to disarm a trap).

Luv this! There needs to be a lot more traps in the world, and they need to be a lot more dangerous (remember the floor/ceiling traps in OBLIVION that would crush you?). There should also be trap detection and "disabling" as part of the Legerdemain or Thieves guild skill lines.

Would also accept a D&D 5e game from ZOS using this engine....

Alchemical

"Also we have a food mechanic, but you rarely need to buff yourself in solo content."

Speak for yourself. My Nightblade needs that Stam Regen at all times.

apostate9

Yeah, a light like ALmalexia's latern that you can use anywhere would actually help spot chests and such. Maybe a torch consumable that disappears from your hand when you draw your weapons and highlights high-value containers in a radius or something.

Maybe some "world boss" areas that are actually puzzles that require various junk items to solve?

LMar

Those are done in quests in this game really. Or single player games. While it would be nice to have a deeper game imagine all the people who would flood the forums with "how to bless this item" or people selling ropes for 1 mil. XD ofc it could be a whole new game

LadyLavina

Turn Varen into a life sized PEZ dispenser that dispenses them. The items would be the same but the manner in which you get them would be hilarious.

Dreepa

apostate9 wrote: »

Yeah, a light like ALmalexia's latern that you can use anywhere would actually help spot chests and such. Maybe a torch consumable that disappears from your hand when you draw your weapons and highlights high-value containers in a radius or something.

Maybe some "world boss" areas that are actually puzzles that require various junk items to solve?

Oh, yeah, that is cool. I mean the general concept of "hidden stuff" that can be found with "item X" is very cool thing that could actually be put to work with a similar mechanic like the "anti-stealth guards" work, where you are kicked out of hiding. Basically the chest/treasure/whatever is hidden and the item makes you a "spotter". Would be awesome.

Tasear

Actually this is interesting, we really don't have enough traps.

Dreepa

LMar wrote: »

Those are done in quests in this game really. Or single player games. While it would be nice to have a deeper game imagine all the people who would flood the forums with "how to bless this item" or people selling ropes for 1 mil. XD ofc it could be a whole new game

But isn't this quest way of doing things feeling super generic? Instead of having multiple paths to solve something depending on your approach, you just go to the arrow and press "USE".
Of course it would still need to be explained in the quest, or people will be stuck.

About the pricing: If it is craftable, it will regulate itself. I mean, it could be purely optional bonus content. Like for example: To get the optional boss, that is hidden in a dungeon, you would need to climb a wall that is requiring to bring a rope.
Or in order to pass over a bridge that is heavily damage you need to bring planks to stabilize it. Stuff like that.

stevepdodson_ESO888

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

Hi,

Sure, there are some traps here and there. But they deal non significant damage mostly, and you can disarm them without any requirements (not like D&D Online, where you need to have the skill and the tools to disarm a trap).

Luv this! There needs to be a lot more traps in the world, and they need to be a lot more dangerous (remember the floor/ceiling traps in OBLIVION that would crush you?). There should also be trap detection and "disabling" as part of the Legerdemain or Thieves guild skill lines.

Would also accept a D&D 5e game from ZOS using this engine....

haha...if you have been playing ESO long enough, there was a time when the trap (memento reward from public dungeon) did so much damage everyone was using them on the Mantikora and killing it...be careful what you wish for

Dreepa

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Dreepa wrote: »

Hi,

Sure, there are some traps here and there. But they deal non significant damage mostly, and you can disarm them without any requirements (not like D&D Online, where you need to have the skill and the tools to disarm a trap).

Luv this! There needs to be a lot more traps in the world, and they need to be a lot more dangerous (remember the floor/ceiling traps in OBLIVION that would crush you?). There should also be trap detection and "disabling" as part of the Legerdemain or Thieves guild skill lines.

Would also accept a D&D 5e game from ZOS using this engine....

haha...if you have been playing ESO long enough, there was a time when the trap (memento reward from public dungeon) did so much damage everyone was using them on the Mantikora and killing it...be careful what you wish for

Maybe traps should only damage players then.

Dreepa

Another idea:

Usually the game involved going to the marker, and pressing "USE".

What if we actually had quest steps that only ask to find a solution?


Some examples:

Instead of showing the marker on the NPC and say: "Talk to X to get a fancy outfit" it could be: "Dress up properly for the event".
Then you have to stroll around the merchants area to find an NPC clothier that sells you some fancy outfit.

Or instead of saying: "Gather a shovel" and then "Use shovel on pile of dirt" each with their marker, it should rather be:

"Dig into the pile of dirt"

When you use the pile of dirt it could say: "Do you really want to do this with your bare hands? Go find a shovel" HINT: Maybe the smiths in town have shovels.

Just some random thoughts here.

max_only

I agree that we need more strategic gameplay..... however I see a lot of people in zone who are so used to killing 5 pigs for tusks and return that the bare minimum of problem solving becomes an annoyance to them. Not having a direct quest marker is cause for them to vent in zone. {{"Where do I go to save these guys? This lady just says the Ayleid king is west and the mage is east - that's no help at all!!!"}} I'm going to guess that those of us that like puzzles and strategy are in the minority.

I remember setting my trap on an oil slick and dragging a boss mob through it while using a flame skill-- that was always epic to me. That I could outthink in places where I couldn't out-damage.

So much of this game is a spin-to-win dps measuring contest that I think you'd frustrate the majority of people with non-combat/ non-twitch mechanics.

I want it as well op. I was actually going to ask that they make nightblades the true strategic class by giving them traps and distraction noisemakers and other kinds of "strategic" skills.

Dreepa

@max_only

Yes, most people want to just be told what to do. They even feel good about just spam clicking the dialogues and run from A to B.

Though what I do not really understand: Shouldn't the majority of those people be playing games that are not so story and lore heavy? Why choose ESO when you can play much more light hearted MMORPGS like WoW, GuildWars2 or Black Desert.

starkerealm

This is one of those neat concepts that sounds really cool, but becomes a pain when it's actually implemented.

At a conceptual level, it's really cool. You need a pick axe or a shovel or a torch, you need to go grab one, or bring one with you.

At an implementation level it's not too much of a problem. You simply check to see if the player has/is using the appropriate item on the interact node.

For the player, it quickly becomes busywork.

Okay, you need to dig up a grave. Cool. For that you'll need a shovel... easy enough. Did you bring a shovel? Is there one nearby?

If there's one nearby it's no different from a normal interaction in the game right now, except with additional stages. If you brought one it's exactly like how it operates, except you need to have planned ahead and brought it with you. Did you?

See, this is where ESO isn't like a classic RPG. Your inventory is (mostly) stuff you'll shuffle through quickly. There's 60 to 200 inventory slots to fill, and you're not asked to make choices about how much they weigh. In a single player game, you can do that. But, in a multiplayer game, time you spend messing with your inventory affects other players. If you're going alone, then great, no problems, but if you're in a team, with other live human beings, you're messing around with your inventory, meaning they're either having to wait for you to finish, or they're getting annoyed with you. This means, functionally, you need an inventory system that runs as fluidly as possible. ESO doesn't quite make that threshold, but it tries.

At best, you'd create a system where players would simply need to carry 5 to 15 more utility items on them at all times, and then if they accidentally sold, banked, or otherwise got rid of them, everyone else gets to sit around while they sort it out (ever accidentally dump all your lockpicks in the bank? Exact same problem). This gets worse if the interaction gates resources or loot you're in competition with other players for. For example, needing a pick to mine ore. Skyrim has no problems enforcing that requirement, but ESO drops it because it wouldn't serve a purpose except to waste your time.

You also don't want a system where you have to go through your inventory and choose what you want to use on the object. On PC it's fine. You could just set up another keybind that's specific to your shovel, and only use it on the rare occasions where you need to dig through something. But, on the consoles, you're looking at a limited number of keys that can be bound. Hell, their ultimate activation is already a combo. On PC, you press R, on the consoles? Nope, they ran out of keys, you need to press both bumpers simultaneously.

So, you get a system that would offer nothing of value, and simply waste people's time. Which, ironically would be far more annoying than immersive. "I need to craft some potions before we go. Give me a sec, I need to find my alembic. Where did I leave that thing?" "Just use the station." "I can't use the station if I'm not carrying the Alembic, the interact is red."

Sound fun?

Dreepa

It is fun if done properly.

Not the way you imagine it. I wouldn't design it like that.

PS: There are online games out there that work like that, that are more sandbox MMO style. Also a lot of multiplayer survival games have those things. It is a question of what playerbase you have and what they like.

Rouven

I don't think it would add much to be quite honest. It's not that I am against those things - but for example (thinking about it now) I am not missing the gathering tools needed in other games to gather materials (pickaxe, hatchet etc).

Traps etc surely add flavour - but let's say I had to "lockpick" 5-10 of them in a row it would sure get old quick.

I do like the puzzles etc for some quests, definitely expecting to see more of those and the use of disguises which we often have as an option as well.

Dreepa

Rouven wrote: »

I don't think it would add much to be quite honest. It's not that I am against those things - but for example (thinking about it now) I am not missing the gathering tools needed in other games to gather materials (pickaxe, hatchet etc).

Traps etc surely add flavour - but let's say I had to "lockpick" 5-10 of them in a row it would sure get old quick.

I do like the puzzles etc for some quests, definitely expecting to see more of those and the use of disguises which we often have as an option as well.

I think when you take into account that you have already picked a gazillion of locks in ESO without being annoyed, then similar gameplay elements might also add to the variety.

For example in Deus Ex, you have a hacking part, where you need to reach the ´master node. It is also kind of a mini game.
GTA has also a ton of different mini games, that add variety and flavor to the world.
In Bioshock you had to connect Pipes in a minigame.
In Fallout, you had a hacking minigame where you needed to find the right words in a cryptic text.

In ESO all you have is "press USE" to continue.

Every game mechanic or idea will get old and repetitive at one point. The lock picking in ESO for example is a very well done minigame. It is short, variable, can be solved quickly yet you sometimes fail. And it has a resource component to it (lockpicks) that can be distributed in the loot tables of the game, making it more meaningful.

Finding more of exactly these approaches would be adding to the game overall, I think. If done right, and not "overdone".

EleonoraCrendraven

Rouven wrote: »

I don't think it would add much to be quite honest. It's not that I am against those things - but for example (thinking about it now) I am not missing the gathering tools needed in other games to gather materials (pickaxe, hatchet etc).

Traps etc surely add flavour - but let's say I had to "lockpick" 5-10 of them in a row it would sure get old quick.

I do like the puzzles etc for some quests, definitely expecting to see more of those and the use of disguises which we often have as an option as well.

Real Puzzles are always good, something to use your brain and not only running from A to B and the solution is painted on a wall 5m away like it is most times.

Rouven

Dreepa wrote: »

Rouven wrote: »

I don't think it would add much to be quite honest. It's not that I am against those things - but for example (thinking about it now) I am not missing the gathering tools needed in other games to gather materials (pickaxe, hatchet etc).

Traps etc surely add flavour - but let's say I had to "lockpick" 5-10 of them in a row it would sure get old quick.

I do like the puzzles etc for some quests, definitely expecting to see more of those and the use of disguises which we often have as an option as well.

I think when you take into account that you have already picked a gazillion of locks in ESO without being annoyed, then similar gameplay elements might also add to the variety.

For example in Deus Ex, you have a hacking part, where you need to reach the ´master node. It is also kind of a mini game.
GTA has also a ton of different mini games, that add variety and flavor to the world.
In Bioshock you had to connect Pipes in a minigame.
In Fallout, you had a hacking minigame where you needed to find the right words in a cryptic text.

In ESO all you have is "press USE" to continue.

Every game mechanic or idea will get old and repetitive at one point. The lock picking in ESO for example is a very well done minigame. It is short, variable, can be solved quickly yet you sometimes fail. And it has a resource component to it (lockpicks) that can be distributed in the loot tables of the game, making it more meaningful.

Finding more of exactly these approaches would be adding to the game overall, I think. If done right, and not "overdone".

Oh for sure (re lockpicking) - but it's a different kind of incentive. You seek the chests to pick them - or some will grudgingly do it for the achievement. If they are in my way and I cannot pass until I pick the "chest" that's different.

You are comparing to single player games, it's just a slightly different flavour.

Let's put it this way - if there would be lets say side caves in delves - hidden rooms - bonus content - yes, that sounds awesome.

As long as it's not mandatory (?).