Doomed by TRIO game

SilverWF

mvffins wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

If you have DPSers only dungeons is not for you. You can be queued for something like a half of hour(!!!) only to see how your groupmates will leave after 1st wipe! Sure if you are healer or a tank this is not a problem - you'll find a group in seconds. But for DPSer this is just eternal queues.

The wait has nothing to do with the holy trinity of RPGs, it's because DPS is what most people want to do as tanking and healing is pretty boring since they take longer leveling up, have a pretty textbook routine in dungeons, and aren't the ones getting the kills in PvP.

And this is affects a wait time directly, cos there is always shtton of DPSers - where I was wrong?
Make any content doable with any class and any spec and "wait time" would gone!

brandonv516

I love how people argue "don't use the Group Finder if you don't like it."

It is a valuable tool in the game that SHOULD be far more superior than it is. It's not friendly to dps, it's broken, and it's limited.

I think people are just used to it being terrible and are already in the acceptance stage.

[Deleted User]

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove a few comments for being off topic and not constructive. For continuation of this thread please be sure stay on topic and as always keep the Forum Rules in mind.

Thank you for understanding.

zaria

Bouldercleave wrote: »

So your REAL complaint is that you want to DPS (like the majority of players), but because you don't want to tank or heal the whole system that the Genre was founded on is broken?

You queue longer because there are substantially more DPSers than tanks and healers.

This, wow has the same problem.
Here ESO has an benefit, any stamina build can tank and any magic build heal.

Wayshuba

Just FYI. GW2 tried that and it went over like a lead balloon. They have all but abandoned dungeons because they became BORING, with everyone simply doing their own DPS race and having some self-heals. In effect, having no roles turns all fights into mob rule slugfests rather than having coordinated strategies to take a boss down. Part of the fun of the trinity is having people have select roles, doing their job and the feeling of accomplishment that comes from a well executed team strategy. Kind of like a football team or military squad has different roles that make a whole unit.

So, I respectively disagree. I have played it both ways and the mob rule style is BORING as heck. I will take the trinity or quad role (where some games add a dedicated support class) over free style any day.

Bringer

Wayshuba wrote: »

Just FYI. GW2 tried that and it went over like a lead balloon.

GW2 did it wrong. They just removed healers.
The key is to remove tanks. Leave healers, make DPS potential damage output contingent on how reckless they can be. Now DPS can dps race, healers can heal race, and the heal racing adds to the dps race. Everyone gets to show off their epeen, and there is a dynamic between the dps and healers which encourage them feeling out and pushing their limits.

Tank as an archetype (not 'durable melee guy' but 'agro-control guy') only existed because the early 3d mmos had no collision detection. Earlier 2d mmos just had physically blocking off or manipulating mob movement. The entire tank role is essentially a quick fix to a hardware issue that no longer even exists, yet it has become ubiquitous and seemingly permanent.

The classic trinity by the way as per the origin of the term in its mmo context doesnt include dps, its tank healer and CC. Modern mmos dont have dedicated CC anymore because casuals. DPS are not part of a trinity, DPS are the dime a dozen second class fodder you get once you have what you actually need for the group to function (the trinity).

Anyway there should only be dps and support that increases dps in measurable ways so everyone can brag. MMOs are about showing off.

Mashille

At least it's not a TRION game... AMIRITE?



... I'll go

Nerouyn

SilverWF wrote: »

When we'll get rid of classic trio system?

GW2 famously tried to do away with the trinity and made much fuss about that pre launch.... then wished they hadn't.

It reduced all group content to a DPS rush and drove away players who enjoy playing other roles.

Tryxus

Mashille wrote: »

At least it's not a TRION game... AMIRITE?



... I'll go

jk

SilverWF

About GW2
Maybe, you didn't noticed, but this is PVP game, where PVE is not on the 1st place. Sure, it has wonderful PVE content, every race has it's own story, interesting quests, but nothing more. This is just another game, with different mechanics. Dungeons didn't have any cool mechanics inside - just DPS-check. The most important thing about "dead" dungeons - you DON't need to farm it again and again to obtain high-end gear. More than that: you even can not kill any monster since character creation and still be able to get to the max lvl and high-end gear.
ESO dungeons has the same boredom level after 5th+ run (for me - after 2nd), don't sell me BS about it please. The only difference - you NEED farm it to get gear to your own or to sell it. Because ESO is PVE game with PVP somewhere at 2nd roles - you can even didn't know "where Cyrodiil is" but be at max lvl and top-end gear.

If ESO did not have any dedicated roles, so let the matchmaker would got rid of it too.

Shad0wfire99

1. Wut?
2. No
3. Wat?

mr1sho

So we all agree NerF Templars! Lol

IronCrystal

If you feel like you don't need a tank, just simply set your role as tank.

Easy. Done.

Don't blame me if it doesn't turn out as expected.

Seri

zaria wrote: »

any magic build heal.

As a mag templar with heal-spec CP allocations who tanked WS1 and BCrucible pledges last night just by swapping to some heavy armor, I'd disagree. Well, maybe not 'any build' (light armor might be hard) but certainly most of the vet dungeons don't need a trial-tier tank gear if you know what you're doing.

klowdy1

GW2 is --->

Funny thing is, even their endgame forces full time healers in order to survive now.

Magdalina

SilverWF wrote: »

If you dislike TRIO then remove it! make all dungeons doable with all 4 DPSers! And not doable because of luck, but everytime! Remove oneshots from bosses completely! make bosses vulnerable after some environment use or another conditions - just get rid of tanks!

....

TLDR All dungeons and bosses mechanic must be reworked to be absolutely doable without any specific roles or specs, like "tanks" or "mages".

*blinks*

*blinks again*

So...you basically want dungeon bosses to die because you look at them sternly or what? No mechanics, no oneshots, doable without any specific roles or specs...you come in, you get a popup saying "do you win?" with just one answer option - "yes, I do!", after which everything in the dungeon commits suicide and you emerge victorious, no matter your role and spec?

zaria

Bringer wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

Just FYI. GW2 tried that and it went over like a lead balloon.

GW2 did it wrong. They just removed healers.
The key is to remove tanks. Leave healers, make DPS potential damage output contingent on how reckless they can be. Now DPS can dps race, healers can heal race, and the heal racing adds to the dps race. Everyone gets to show off their epeen, and there is a dynamic between the dps and healers which encourage them feeling out and pushing their limits.

Tank as an archetype (not 'durable melee guy' but 'agro-control guy') only existed because the early 3d mmos had no collision detection. Earlier 2d mmos just had physically blocking off or manipulating mob movement. The entire tank role is essentially a quick fix to a hardware issue that no longer even exists, yet it has become ubiquitous and seemingly permanent.

The classic trinity by the way as per the origin of the term in its mmo context doesnt include dps, its tank healer and CC. Modern mmos dont have dedicated CC anymore because casuals. DPS are not part of a trinity, DPS are the dime a dozen second class fodder you get once you have what you actually need for the group to function (the trinity).

Anyway there should only be dps and support that increases dps in measurable ways so everyone can brag. MMOs are about showing off.

That makes DK so good tanks is that they can pull ranged trash close to the boss there they go down in the AoE blender rather than DD having to kill them one and one.
Healer is more of an soft slot, or the dps responsible for heal, resources, buff and debuff, the role is nice as the DD can focus on doing damage. An good healer will do decent dps too.

starkerealm

I've seen a couple games where the devs tried to remove the trinity. The result was that players went and kludged it back together on their own. In some cases, the devs threw their hands up, and just went, "you know what? Fine, have it."

Thing is, at this point, the trinity is a self fulfilling prophecy. It's really not necessary to game design, but players will go out of their way to create it, if a developer doesn't provide it to begin with.

SilverWF

Magdalina wrote: »

So...you basically want dungeon bosses to die because you look at them sternly or what?

So, you basically read it wrong - you can't read or what?

starkerealm wrote: »

I've seen a couple games where the devs tried to remove the trinity.

In fact, you've seen only one game like this - with "OK, pointless community, fine, you won" - ESO.
ZO even added single-target aggro to the Ice staff! But forget to do that with 1h+shield, lol

Luigi_Vampa

SilverWF wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So...you basically want dungeon bosses to die because you look at them sternly or what?

So, you basically read it wrong - you can't read or what?

starkerealm wrote: »

I've seen a couple games where the devs tried to remove the trinity.

In fact, you've seen only one game like this - with "OK, pointless community, fine, you won" - ESO.
ZO even added single-target aggro to the Ice staff! But forget to do that with 1h+shield, lol

One hand and shield has a single target taunt. What are you talking about?

Bouldercleave

SilverWF wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So...you basically want dungeon bosses to die because you look at them sternly or what?

So, you basically read it wrong - you can't read or what?

starkerealm wrote: »

I've seen a couple games where the devs tried to remove the trinity.

In fact, you've seen only one game like this - with "OK, pointless community, fine, you won" - ESO.
ZO even added single-target aggro to the Ice staff! But forget to do that with 1h+shield, lol

So the entire community is wrong because the VAST majority disagrees with you about changing the entire dynamic of co-op gaming to suit your desires? Wow.

zaria

starkerealm wrote: »

I've seen a couple games where the devs tried to remove the trinity. The result was that players went and kludged it back together on their own. In some cases, the devs threw their hands up, and just went, "you know what? Fine, have it."

Thing is, at this point, the trinity is a self fulfilling prophecy. It's really not necessary to game design, but players will go out of their way to create it, if a developer doesn't provide it to begin with.

Was some who tested it and found that farming group dungeons was faster with tank and healer over 4dd.
Simply as the tank gave DD an place to put AoE and healer let them focus on damage.
On the other hand if enemies become to much of an walkover 4dd works well

starkerealm

SilverWF wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So...you basically want dungeon bosses to die because you look at them sternly or what?

So, you basically read it wrong - you can't read or what?

starkerealm wrote: »

I've seen a couple games where the devs tried to remove the trinity.

In fact, you've seen only one game like this - with "OK, pointless community, fine, you won" - ESO.
ZO even added single-target aggro to the Ice staff! But forget to do that with 1h+shield, lol

No, I can think of four off hand, and I have played a few others that did the same. Can you remember what they are? Because, I can. But, I figure, since you're somehow fully aware of all my experiences, you'd like the credit for identifying them and explaining them.

ValkynSketha

L2P ...etc

Shad0wfire99

SilverWF wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

So...you basically want dungeon bosses to die because you look at them sternly or what?

So, you basically read it wrong - you can't read or what?

Irony

ScooberSteve

Whats block rate? Making up terms now? Dungeons are doing with 3 to 4 dps due to untauntable bosses you just have to be SKILLED to do it. And if you cant get into groups here's an idea try making and queuing a tank alt.

Cêltic421

Sounds like you not a fan of this game. Why play?

Funkopotamus

SilverWF wrote: »

When we'll get rid of classic trio system? This is last century, or even two! This makes this game from wonderful to not enjoyable crap if you are trying to do dungeons!



TLDR All dungeons and bosses mechanic must be reworked to be absolutely doable without any specific roles or specs, like "tanks" or "mages".

S0ooooo in the name of "Progression" we should basically gut/destroy the very system that made MMOs popular?



Yeah okay.

Grymmoire

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Nice rant - but

The trinity will ALWAYS be the trinity. The entire Genre of co-op gaming was founded on that principle.

So brethren, since it has been written, it must be so.

Repeat after me: Glory be to the TANK and to the DPS'ers and to the HOLY HEALER; as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, MMO's without end. Amen.

DragonBound

SilverWF wrote: »

When we'll get rid of classic trio system? This is last century, or even two! This makes this game from wonderful to not enjoyable crap if you are trying to do dungeons!

Every encounter forces you to have 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPSers. This is BS (something that bulls produces, you know). Where is a FREEDOM?
Also, there is always a tons of damaggers, much less number of healers and all I can say about tanks is they are rarer than an animals from the Red book.
What DLC I need to buy to get rid of that ***?
If you have DPSers only dungeons is not for you. You can be queued for something like a half of hour(!!!) only to see how your groupmates will leave after 1st wipe! Sure if you are healer or a tank this is not a problem - you'll find a group in seconds. But for DPSer this is just eternal queues.

You forces every group to have a tank and healer. But! You are removed all direct strong heals and aggro from the classic healer and tank archetype!
Tank must be tough as hell, also high block rate and (most important thing) ability to aggro the whole room on himself at demand! Do we see it here? Not.
Healer must have group heals for a moderate amount and one singletarget strong heal (literally at the full HP bar). Do we see it here? Not.

If you dislike TRIO then remove it! make all dungeons doable with all 4 DPSers! And not doable because of luck, but everytime! Remove oneshots from bosses completely! make bosses vulnerable after some environment use or another conditions - just get rid of tanks!
This is NOT fun to be in the queue for 30 min and still not able to do ONE random dungeon for daily - in the EU prime-time! Damn, not even specific, but one RANDOM vet dungeon! OMG, three years gone and there is still nothing changed!

Another part is Stam DPSers still sucks. I have Stam NB and Magic Sorc. Yes, NB can provide strong but short(!) burst to ONE target. But this is far even from being "not enough" in the dungeons. My Sorc able to do continuous and strong AOE pressure also as crazy single-target. I didn't even say that some players are leave only when they understood that my NB is stamina-based, not magicka and I can understand them!
How the hell I'll able to level Undaunted guild skill-line at my NB? Respec it to the Magica, level this guild and then respec back? Are you serious? There is 2017, not 1997, game design has changed since 1st MMOs like Ultima Online! God, three years and stamina still suck ><
Do you understand why there is so many mages? Because this is like be universal soldier: you are good in the PVP, you are crazy good in the PVE. Why play something else?

I really love this game at my NB because of Dark Bhood DLC, this is really enjoyable content. But. When I want to do any dungeon - I have a strong wish to just deinstall this game!

TLDR All dungeons and bosses mechanic must be reworked to be absolutely doable without any specific roles or specs, like "tanks" or "mages".

Hmmmm I kind of see your point but the issue would be resolved with more classes in general, when you get rid of the trinity you end up with a bunch of tons of jack of all trade classes and then it ends up being even more of a dps game do you have any idea how boring that is? Do not believe me? Look at guild wars 2. What we need is more class roles, hybrids, cc, debuffs, buffers and etc.