Cutting Dive.

Toc de Malsvi

Is this the only stamina morph without any additional utility or function? Morphs have always added additional utility or functions, even stamina morphs. From what has been data-mined so far this morph appears to have no additional utility.

I believe this would even further push the disparity between stamina and magicka. Not only does magicka get the base skill but they get the only morph that adds any additional utility or function.


Consider these stamina morphs and their additional differences:

Venomous Claw - Damage over time increases the longer the effect lasts.
Noxious Breath - Applies Major Fracture.

Dark Conversion - Has reduced cost.
Bound Armaments - Increases heavy attack damage.
Hurricane - Increases size, damage with duration, and adds Minor Expedition.

Killer's Blade - Heals if target dies within 2 seconds.
Ambush - Grants Major Empower
Surprise Attack - Applies Major Fracture.
Power Extraction - Deals increased damage. (Arguably the increase in damage here is negligible.)

Biting Jabs - Grant's Major Savagery.
Binding Javelin - Stuns for longer.
Power of the Light - Applies Minor Fracture and Minor Breach.


Then you have Cutting Dive which appears to only simply convert to stamina. What kind of direction are players being led when the choices are: "Hey you can use it as stamina! Or you could do more damage with it as magicka!"

dpencil

I mentioned this as well in my post on the ESO Live thread. The same problem exists for the Netch, which converts to stamina and weapon damage bonus but doesn't have a free purge or anything else. The morphs of the bear are also imbalanced. A no-cost bear rusummoning itself once every 60 seconds is worthless compared to the actively usable version which is also the only form of execute the Warden has, but will be significantly more powerful for stamina characters. There's nothing even particularly "magicka" oriented about Eternal Guardian.

Anti_Virus

Not just that the Bear stam morph had the same issue,

And the Bull netch stam morph as well.

dpencil

Haha, jinx!

Anti_Virus

dpencil wrote: »

Haha, jinx!

Lol.

STEVIL

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Is this the only stamina morph without any additional utility or function? Morphs have always added additional utility or functions, even stamina morphs. From what has been data-mined so far this morph appears to have no additional utility.

I believe this would even further push the disparity between stamina and magicka. Not only does magicka get the base skill but they get the only morph that adds any additional utility or function.


Consider these stamina morphs and their additional differences:

Venomous Claw - Damage over time increases the longer the effect lasts.
Noxious Breath - Applies Major Fracture.

Dark Conversion - Has reduced cost.
Bound Armaments - Increases heavy attack damage.
Hurricane - Increases size, damage with duration, and adds Minor Expedition.

Killer's Blade - Heals if target dies within 2 seconds.
Ambush - Grants Major Empower
Surprise Attack - Applies Major Fracture.
Power Extraction - Deals increased damage. (Arguably the increase in damage here is negligible.)

Biting Jabs - Grant's Major Savagery.
Binding Javelin - Stuns for longer.
Power of the Light - Applies Minor Fracture and Minor Breach.


Then you have Cutting Dive which appears to only simply convert to stamina. What kind of direction are players being led when the choices are: "Hey you can use it as stamina! Or you could do more damage with it as magicka!"

Selective memory? Selective posting?

i mean you chose to include dark conversion, right?



Dark Deal - changes it from eat stamina to gain magica and health to eating magica to gain stamina and health with no additional features.

exeeter702

How about the fact that it is a 28 *** meter stamina spamable

Toc de Malsvi

STEVIL wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Is this the only stamina morph without any additional utility or function? Morphs have always added additional utility or functions, even stamina morphs. From what has been data-mined so far this morph appears to have no additional utility.

I believe this would even further push the disparity between stamina and magicka. Not only does magicka get the base skill but they get the only morph that adds any additional utility or function.


Consider these stamina morphs and their additional differences:

Venomous Claw - Damage over time increases the longer the effect lasts.
Noxious Breath - Applies Major Fracture.

Dark Conversion - Has reduced cost.
Bound Armaments - Increases heavy attack damage.
Hurricane - Increases size, damage with duration, and adds Minor Expedition.

Killer's Blade - Heals if target dies within 2 seconds.
Ambush - Grants Major Empower
Surprise Attack - Applies Major Fracture.
Power Extraction - Deals increased damage. (Arguably the increase in damage here is negligible.)

Biting Jabs - Grant's Major Savagery.
Binding Javelin - Stuns for longer.
Power of the Light - Applies Minor Fracture and Minor Breach.


Then you have Cutting Dive which appears to only simply convert to stamina. What kind of direction are players being led when the choices are: "Hey you can use it as stamina! Or you could do more damage with it as magicka!"

Selective memory? Selective posting?

i mean you chose to include dark conversion, right?



Dark Deal - changes it from eat stamina to gain magica and health to eating magica to gain stamina and health with no additional features.

I was looking at stamina morphs explicitly not magicka morphs. ie the first part of the first sentence if you would like to read: "Is this the only stamina morph..."

There is far more analysis needed when looking at all morphs magicka or stamina.

Dark Deal the only stamina based class skill unmorphed.... Oh man stamina is really encrouching on magicka's skills...

Toc de Malsvi

exeeter702 wrote: »

How about the fact that it is a 28 *** meter stamina spamable

Snipe is already available its just clunky. Silver Shards is already available it just doesn't do enough damage to justify its use as a spammable. This skill is untested live, no one knows if it will be worthwhile as a spammable.

Lynx7386

dpencil wrote: »

The morphs of the bear are also imbalanced. A no-cost bear rusummoning itself once every 60 seconds is worthless compared to the actively usable version which is also the only form of execute the Warden has, but will be significantly more powerful for stamina characters. There's nothing even particularly "magicka" oriented about Eternal Guardian.

You're incorrect here. Both of the bear morphs can use the enrage/execute. The stamina morph does 12% more damage

exeeter702

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

How about the fact that it is a 28 *** meter stamina spamable

Snipe is already available its just clunky. Silver Shards is already available it just doesn't do enough damage to justify its use as a spammable. This skill is untested live, no one knows if it will be worthwhile as a spammable.

It absolutely will be worthwhile as a spamable.. Both in cost and the fact that it is an instant cast. Comparing it to snipe or SS is a little silly. The fact that it has no added utility is precicely why it is tuned to be a skill continually weaved between light and medium attacks.

Gilliamtherogue

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Venomous Claw - Damage over time increases the longer the effect lasts.
Noxious Breath - Applies Major Fracture.

Dark Conversion - Has reduced cost. Merely converts from Stamina -> Health+Mag into Magicka -> Health + Stam
Bound Armaments - Increases heavy attack damage.
Hurricane - Increases size, damage with duration, and adds Minor Expedition.

Killer's Blade - Heals if target dies within 2 seconds.
Ambush - Grants Major Empower
Surprise Attack - Applies Major Fracture.
Power Extraction - Deals increased damage. Says it increases damage, doesn't actually do that.

Biting Jabs - Grant's Major Savagery.
Binding Javelin - Stuns for longer.
Power of the Light - Applies Minor Fracture and Minor Breach.


Then you have Cutting Dive which appears to only simply convert to stamina. What kind of direction are players being led when the choices are: "Hey you can use it as stamina! Or you could do more damage with it as magicka!"

I edited your post with more accurate info. Cutting Dive isn't the only Morph option that merely converts, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The ideal behind a morph is to make it into something better than the original, and while Stamina vs Magicka diversity is great and all, it's still the same skill in operation, it just does better scaling with stats. Morphs should ALWAYS have a deviation that makes them stand out, not just with numbers.

Toc de Malsvi

exeeter702 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

How about the fact that it is a 28 *** meter stamina spamable

Snipe is already available its just clunky. Silver Shards is already available it just doesn't do enough damage to justify its use as a spammable. This skill is untested live, no one knows if it will be worthwhile as a spammable.

It absolutely will be worthwhile as a spamable.. Both in cost and the fact that it is an instant cast. Comparing it to snipe or SS is a little silly. The fact that it has no added utility is precicely why it is tuned to be a skill continually weaved between light and medium attacks.

You are basing this on? Extensive experience testing.....nothing? It's not out yet, you cannot know whether it will or wont be worthwhile. Snipe and SS are both the skills it should and would be compared to, they are the similar ranged stamina alternatives for everything not Warden.

Gilliamtherogue

I will mention however, as having played the Warden at testing, Cutting Dive was amazing. I was the guy Wrobel mentioned in the ESO live who used a melee build with Dive as my spammable. Great skill, but it didn't feel all that special from the base skill. I wish there was a bit of utility to make it stand out a bit more.

Toc de Malsvi

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I will mention however, as having played the Warden at testing, Cutting Dive was amazing. I was the guy Wrobel mentioned in the ESO live who used a melee build with Dive as my spammable. Great skill, but it didn't feel all that special from the base skill. I wish there was a bit of utility to make it stand out a bit more.

I'm not trying to bash it, I'm very much looking forward to trying a Warden out. As a morph though it is very unattractive. As someone who has attempted to play with bows since beta it is both exciting to see a class with more support but also frustrating that its implementation is such that it encourages magicka over stamina.

Gilliamtherogue

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I will mention however, as having played the Warden at testing, Cutting Dive was amazing. I was the guy Wrobel mentioned in the ESO live who used a melee build with Dive as my spammable. Great skill, but it didn't feel all that special from the base skill. I wish there was a bit of utility to make it stand out a bit more.

I'm not trying to bash it, I'm very much looking forward to trying a Warden out. As a morph though it is very unattractive. As someone who has attempted to play with bows since beta it is both exciting to see a class with more support but also frustrating that its implementation is such that it encourages magicka over stamina.

Totally agree, as I pointed out in the post above

Toc de Malsvi

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I will mention however, as having played the Warden at testing, Cutting Dive was amazing. I was the guy Wrobel mentioned in the ESO live who used a melee build with Dive as my spammable. Great skill, but it didn't feel all that special from the base skill. I wish there was a bit of utility to make it stand out a bit more.

Also, although it's ranged it does not benefit from bow passives such as Hawkeye or Longshots, which means it must be very very good to out pace Snipe.

Gilliamtherogue

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I will mention however, as having played the Warden at testing, Cutting Dive was amazing. I was the guy Wrobel mentioned in the ESO live who used a melee build with Dive as my spammable. Great skill, but it didn't feel all that special from the base skill. I wish there was a bit of utility to make it stand out a bit more.

Also, although it's ranged it does not benefit from bow passives such as Hawkeye or Longshots, which means it must be very very good to out pace Snipe.

Snipe will beat Dive in stationary and direct damage comparisons due to bow passives. However, the issue of the bow isn't damage production on paper, its damage production in practice. Bows are rigid, finicky, and unreliable. Mechanics demand movement (snipe is a 50% movespeed reduc), blocking/dodging (can't do that with snipe), and quick reaction timing (can't do that with Snipe). Perfect example is Rakkhat, where ranged DPS is a priority due to mechanics. People say, "Oh just use a bow and you can be relevant!" Issue is, the second mechanics start happening and you're spamming your snipe on that fight, you're dead.

Dive will give Stamina Wardens an option to be played at both ranges, but don't expect a new meta to form for the top 1%. Still, it will be very accessible to the player base, which is where the game should be focused on for now.

dpencil

Lynx7386 wrote: »

dpencil wrote: »

The morphs of the bear are also imbalanced. A no-cost bear rusummoning itself once every 60 seconds is worthless compared to the actively usable version which is also the only form of execute the Warden has, but will be significantly more powerful for stamina characters. There's nothing even particularly "magicka" oriented about Eternal Guardian.

You're incorrect here. Both of the bear morphs can use the enrage/execute. The stamina morph does 12% more damage

Ah, thx for clearing that up. I guess I misunderstood the explanation from ESO Live. Happy to hear this.

olsborg

The thing that irks me the very wrong way, is the direction @Wrobel is taking with the counters.

The way every new thing and also every old thing becomes undodgeable, they force the medium armor builds to block and not dodge, when dodging is the main defencive action these builds have. Sure medium armor builds can block, but in doing so, they are shutting down their main and often only way to sustain their stamina...regeneration. Why in the world?

Its fine to block here and there, but with so many skills (and almost all ults) being undodgeable, you end up having to block way too much because your main defence isnt viable as a counter. So lets all build heavy armor builds is that it?

exeeter702

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

How about the fact that it is a 28 *** meter stamina spamable

Snipe is already available its just clunky. Silver Shards is already available it just doesn't do enough damage to justify its use as a spammable. This skill is untested live, no one knows if it will be worthwhile as a spammable.

It absolutely will be worthwhile as a spamable.. Both in cost and the fact that it is an instant cast. Comparing it to snipe or SS is a little silly. The fact that it has no added utility is precicely why it is tuned to be a skill continually weaved between light and medium attacks.

You are basing this on? Extensive experience testing.....nothing? It's not out yet, you cannot know whether it will or wont be worthwhile. Snipe and SS are both the skills it should and would be compared to, they are the similar ranged stamina alternatives for everything not Warden.

They are not similiar skills.. Abilities have a budget based on what they provide. Skills that have a damage component AND added utility come with concessions which is usually less damage.

Snipe is a powerfull nuke that comes with a cast time and movement penalty to justify its damage and an added heal debuff. SS has an addeded aoe component while the other morph serves as a (cumbersome) gap closer which is why the skill is given smaller budget with its damage.

Cliff racer stam morph is an instant cast cheap ability with a respectable tool tip damage for a 28m skill ie more than SS and less than snipe. The skill is further strengthend by advanced species and incentivised to keep up via savage beasts. All you need to do is understand the desgin philosophy with abilities in this game, look at other 28m ranged abilities and what there stat budgets are and finally, simply look at the current tooltip for cutting dive.

SodanTok

exeeter702 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

How about the fact that it is a 28 *** meter stamina spamable

Snipe is already available its just clunky. Silver Shards is already available it just doesn't do enough damage to justify its use as a spammable. This skill is untested live, no one knows if it will be worthwhile as a spammable.

It absolutely will be worthwhile as a spamable.. Both in cost and the fact that it is an instant cast. Comparing it to snipe or SS is a little silly. The fact that it has no added utility is precicely why it is tuned to be a skill continually weaved between light and medium attacks.

You are basing this on? Extensive experience testing.....nothing? It's not out yet, you cannot know whether it will or wont be worthwhile. Snipe and SS are both the skills it should and would be compared to, they are the similar ranged stamina alternatives for everything not Warden.

They are not similiar skills.. Abilities have a budget based on what they provide. Skills that have a damage component AND added utility come with concessions which is usually less damage.

Snipe is a powerfull nuke that comes with a cast time and movement penalty to justify its damage and an added heal debuff. SS has an addeded aoe component while the other morph serves as a (cumbersome) gap closer which is why the skill is given smaller budget with its damage.

Cliff racer stam morph is an instant cast cheap ability with a respectable tool tip damage for a 28m skill ie more than SS and less than snipe. The skill is further strengthend by advanced species and incentivised to keep up via savage beasts. All you need to do is understand the desgin philosophy with abilities in this game, look at other 28m ranged abilities and what there stat budgets are and finally, simply look at the current tooltip for cutting dive.

The thing is - all those good things you can say about it are there too, on the other morph that adds bonus damage on top. It has literally the laziest form of saying "this morph is worse" of all morphs in the game.