Consuming the off-balance

NinthPrince64

Can someone help me understand the considerations around "consuming the off-balance" generally? Also, how does one know what skills consume the off balance and which ones don't?

Thanks for your help on this. I really want to understand.

dpencil

I believe Off Balance lasts for 4 seconds. It's like a window of opportunity. If during that time you perform a heavy attack (which doesn't even need to be fully charged), you will knock down the opponent, making them more vulnerable to your attacks and effectively stunning them.

With the latest changes to the lightning staff synergiIng well with the Exploiter passive in the CP system it actually become more advantagious not to actually use the opportunity to knock down the enemy (which bosses are immune to anyway). That's what it means to consume it. So, rule of thumb is light attack weave only so as not to consume off balance.

Walties99

Off balance has a static duration of 4 seconds. Whether or not you knock down the enemy or use a skill that "consumes" it, exploiter passive is really just for the damage and you'll always get that for the 4 seconds

dpencil

Well if that's true then a bunch of people have been making a false assumption and needlessly forcing people away from running heavy attack builds.

Masel

dpencil wrote: »

Well if that's true then a bunch of people have been making a false assumption and needlessly forcing people away from running heavy attack builds.

Doesn't matter to me, I'll keep running those builds whatever people say, I only trust my (and our guilds own) results and testing

NinthPrince64

dpencil wrote: »

I believe Off Balance lasts for 4 seconds. It's like a window of opportunity. If during that time you perform a heavy attack (which doesn't even need to be fully charged), you will knock down the opponent, making them more vulnerable to your attacks and effectively stunning them.

With the latest changes to the lightning staff synergiIng well with the Exploiter passive in the CP system it actually become more advantagious not to actually use the opportunity to knock down the enemy (which bosses are immune to anyway). That's what it means to consume it. So, rule of thumb is light attack weave only so as not to consume off balance.

So , are heavy attacks th e only thing that consumes the off balance. I think I read something in another thread about a commonly-used DK ability (sorry, can't remember and I haven't played DK much) consuming the off balance?

Also, given the responses above it seems as if there is not a commonly held belief about consuming the off balance in terms of how it works and relevance?

pizzaow

Yes, 'Flame lash' (morph of lava whip) will also consume off-balance. A lot of DK's take the other morph (Molten Whip)... you can tell if they are running flame lash if they will do 360 when whipping

Rjizzle09

But if bosses are immune to knocked down how does flame lash steal the buff?

pizzaow

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

But if bosses are immune to knocked down how does flame lash steal the buff?

You still won't knock them down... they just won't be off-balance anymore
The tooltip says:

Targeting an off balance enemy changes this ability into Power Lash, allowing you to lash an enemy with more intense flame to deal [y] Flame Damage and stun them for 2 seconds. You also heal for [z] over 2 seconds

... you'll still 'power lash' and heal, but if the enemy is immune to stuns then they just won't be stunned. If it didn't consume the off-balance, then you'd be able to spam this.

All that being said, my personal opinion is that people are making too big a deal about consuming the off-balance. Unless you're competing for leader boards with a well coordinated trial guild (where nobody is every heavy attacking) then it's not going to make a huge difference. Most of the trials and guilds I run with heavy attacks are often done if resources are low (this includes healers, tanks and dps).

SquareSausage

So, does a heavy attack in the 4s window actually remove the off balance status or not? Conflicting opinions here.

dpencil

I was just reporting what I had heard others say. This should be easily confirmable, though. If someone can run the following test and post the results, it should put the matter to rest:

1. Use Wall of Storms to set the target dummy off balance.
2. Cast Force Pulse, or some other spamable skill. Record the normal non-crit value.
3. Repeat step 1.
4. Do a fully charged heavy attack, causing the target dummy to fall down.
5. Repeat step 2.
6. Compare values.

It would be important that any other variables be controlled as well. Like don't have the weapon power glyph proc active on step 2 but not step 5; make sure Minor Vulnerability is either up or not in both steps 2 and 5.

If someone else can do this test and post it, that would be great. I might get a chance to do it later if no one else does.

DRXHarbinger

SquareSausage wrote: »

So, does a heavy attack in the 4s window actually remove the off balance status or not? Conflicting opinions here.

No people talk too much *** tbh. A power lashing magdk can spam power lashes over and over and over. I've had 5 back to back. In thier theory this isn't possible but happens multiple times daily. I'm guessing they've never used it but seen someone else say it so decide it's true and spam the internet with it.

dpencil

Ok. I tested it using the method listed above.

Verdict:
HEAVY ATTACKS DO NOT CONSUME THE OFF BALANCE BUFF FOR THE EXPLOITER PASSIVE!

In Combat Metrics, the off balance buff from Blockade of Storms is just called "Blockade of Storms" classified as a debuff. This debuff will last 4 seconds whether or not you knock down the opponent with a heavy attack.

SquareSausage

Interesting, alcast has this to say.

Temporarily stuns an enemy, enemy takes increased damage from the next heavy attack (40%) and gets knocked down. Stun breaks on damage taken. Off balance effect lasts regardless of damage taken for 4 seconds, unless you do a heavy attack which completely consumes it.

Masel

Power lash AND the last tick of heavy attacks (or medium weaves) consume off balance.

But as long as you have a lightning blockade down, it will set the enemy off balance with the next tick. You can see it here in the video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFd-DBqnHk

Medium weaves stun the dummy, knock it down and on the next tick of my lightning blockade the dummy is set off-balance again. You see right next to the dummy, I enabled damage figures from the game. It shows status effects with a text animation.

Gilliamtherogue

Off balance which is applied in the traditional way (blocking a Heavy Attack, or hitting an enemy with Flame Lash) lasts 4 seconds and enables the target to be heavy attacked (any level of HA will trigger this, not just fully charged) for additional damage and knock them over. This effect will not break until 4s have passed, or the target has received any damage that shows up as the name "Heavy Attack". This means if you are using the Exploiter passive, you have a 4s window of 10% increased damage to that target, or until it takes HA damage.

Off balance can also be applied from Wall of Lightning on targets that are Concussed. It will also apply the same Off balance as the traditional way does, meaning the target will be stunned (if not CC immune) and primed for a Heavy Attack for bonus damage and knock down. However, the moment Wall of Lightning or its morphs hit the target again, if they are affected by Concussed, Off balance will reapply. The stun and prime will not apply if the target is CC immune, but the Exploiter passive will run the duration until the 4s of the last tick of Wall of Lightning applies, or until the target is hit with HA damage.

The prime feature of Off Balance does not apply to players the same way however. The Debuff "Off Balance" will set and the target will be marked as if they are primed, but Heavy Attacks will not knock them down.

Off Balance may also be consumed by Power Lash, but ONLY for the Dragonknight that casted it. If there are multiple Dragonknights in the group using Lash, each of them will be able to consume their own Off balance proc of Flame Lash, assuming they are using the ability within a GCD of each other (1s apart).

TL;DR- Off balance is different from blocking a Heavy attack and the application of Wall of Lightning. It's extremely finicky to use and make sense out of, as it is not a static system. It's also a big reason that a lot of diversity has sprung in PvE recently, as different builds can apply this with their own pros/cons. It's pretty OP.


Furthermore, enemies who are immune to Concussed (lightning entities and elementals) can not be set Off balance.

SquareSausage

I'm guessing they become off balance again as still concussed, but by the next heavy attack, LL or WoE won't reset it as concussions will have ran out unless concussion had just procced again.

Masel

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Off balance which is applied in the traditional way (blocking a Heavy Attack, or hitting an enemy with Flame Lash) lasts 4 seconds and enables the target to be heavy attacked (any level of HA will trigger this, not just fully charged) for additional damage and knock them over. This effect will not break until 4s have passed, or the target has received any damage that shows up as the name "Heavy Attack". This means if you are using the Exploiter passive, you have a 4s window of 10% increased damage to that target, or until it takes HA damage.

Off balance can also be applied from Wall of Lightning on targets that are Concussed. It will also apply the same Off balance as the traditional way does, meaning the target will be stunned (if not CC immune) and primed for a Heavy Attack for bonus damage and knock down. However, the moment Wall of Lightning or its morphs hit the target again, if they are affected by Concussed, Off balance will reapply. The stun and prime will not apply if the target is CC immune, but the Exploiter passive will run the duration until the 4s of the last tick of Wall of Lightning applies, or until the target is hit with HA damage.

The prime feature of Off Balance does not apply to players the same way however. The Debuff "Off Balance" will set and the target will be marked as if they are primed, but Heavy Attacks will not knock them down.

Off Balance may also be consumed by Power Lash, but ONLY for the Dragonknight that casted it. If there are multiple Dragonknights in the group using Lash, each of them will be able to consume their own Off balance proc of Flame Lash, assuming they are using the ability within a GCD of each other (1s apart).

TL;DR- Off balance is different from blocking a Heavy attack and the application of Wall of Lightning. It's extremely finicky to use and make sense out of, as it is not a static system. It's also a big reason that a lot of diversity has sprung in PvE recently, as different builds can apply this with their own pros/cons. It's pretty OP.


Furthermore, enemies who are immune to Concussed (lightning entities and elementals) can not be set Off balance.

This pretty much sums it up. I'm still unsure whether medium weaving in a raidgroup decreases the group damage by taking away off-balance, maybe you know more in that direction. I tested both light and medium weaving on my magblade against Rakkhat and it lead to higher damage numbers for me with medium weaves (due to the 40% additional medium weave damage) and the group DPS didn't change, but no trial fight is like the other so that doesn't say a lot.

The flame lash thing is interesting: so when I use flame lash I will not decrease everyone else's damage? Because I've had people diminish my Charged/Off-balance builds for that exact reason and this would pretty much make it even more viable.

Gilliamtherogue

Masel92 wrote: »

This pretty much sums it up. I'm still unsure whether medium weaving in a raidgroup decreases the group damage by taking away off-balance, maybe you know more in that direction. I tested both light and medium weaving on my magblade against Rakkhat and it lead to higher damage numbers for me with medium weaves (due to the 40% additional medium weave damage) and the group DPS didn't change, but no trial fight is like the other so that doesn't say a lot.

The flame lash thing is interesting: so when I use flame lash I will not decrease everyone else's damage? Because I've had people diminish my Charged/Off-balance builds for that exact reason and this would pretty much make it even more viable.

Consuming Off Balance for the raid will lead to a pretty large DPS loss, unless multiple players are running Wall of Lightning, as each individual hit will apply it. Meaning if you have 1 person consuming, but 2 players applying, Off Balance will persist for the raid (for the most part).

Flame Lash consuming Off Balance and the Exploiter Passive has been a very difficult task to find out. I've seen so many conflicting results in my own and other's testing that I'm not even 100% sure. I just know that if you (and anyone else with the ability) use the 2ndary proc of Lash within 1s of Off Balance being consumed, you'll get it off. If you wait too long after Off Balance has been consumed, Lash's secondary will revert to the original.

In some areas Lash didn't even consume Exploiter + Off Balance combo at all, which is extremely confusing. I think it may be related to multiple WoL's being ran, but I'm not 100% sure enough to make an official statement.

Masel

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This pretty much sums it up. I'm still unsure whether medium weaving in a raidgroup decreases the group damage by taking away off-balance, maybe you know more in that direction. I tested both light and medium weaving on my magblade against Rakkhat and it lead to higher damage numbers for me with medium weaves (due to the 40% additional medium weave damage) and the group DPS didn't change, but no trial fight is like the other so that doesn't say a lot.

The flame lash thing is interesting: so when I use flame lash I will not decrease everyone else's damage? Because I've had people diminish my Charged/Off-balance builds for that exact reason and this would pretty much make it even more viable.

Consuming Off Balance for the raid will lead to a pretty large DPS loss, unless multiple players are running Wall of Lightning, as each individual hit will apply it. Meaning if you have 1 person consuming, but 2 players applying, Off Balance will persist for the raid (for the most part).

Flame Lash consuming Off Balance and the Exploiter Passive has been a very difficult task to find out. I've seen so many conflicting results in my own and other's testing that I'm not even 100% sure. I just know that if you (and anyone else with the ability) use the 2ndary proc of Lash within 1s of Off Balance being consumed, you'll get it off. If you wait too long after Off Balance has been consumed, Lash's secondary will revert to the original.

In some areas Lash didn't even consume Exploiter + Off Balance combo at all, which is extremely confusing. I think it may be related to multiple WoL's being ran, but I'm not 100% sure enough to make an official statement.

Ah yeah that's in line with what I thought. We have three Lightning WoEs, so I guess that's why we hardly notice it.

Really difficult to test...maybe I can get us to test on a dummy in the next days.

Gilliamtherogue

Masel92 wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This pretty much sums it up. I'm still unsure whether medium weaving in a raidgroup decreases the group damage by taking away off-balance, maybe you know more in that direction. I tested both light and medium weaving on my magblade against Rakkhat and it lead to higher damage numbers for me with medium weaves (due to the 40% additional medium weave damage) and the group DPS didn't change, but no trial fight is like the other so that doesn't say a lot.

The flame lash thing is interesting: so when I use flame lash I will not decrease everyone else's damage? Because I've had people diminish my Charged/Off-balance builds for that exact reason and this would pretty much make it even more viable.

Consuming Off Balance for the raid will lead to a pretty large DPS loss, unless multiple players are running Wall of Lightning, as each individual hit will apply it. Meaning if you have 1 person consuming, but 2 players applying, Off Balance will persist for the raid (for the most part).

Flame Lash consuming Off Balance and the Exploiter Passive has been a very difficult task to find out. I've seen so many conflicting results in my own and other's testing that I'm not even 100% sure. I just know that if you (and anyone else with the ability) use the 2ndary proc of Lash within 1s of Off Balance being consumed, you'll get it off. If you wait too long after Off Balance has been consumed, Lash's secondary will revert to the original.

In some areas Lash didn't even consume Exploiter + Off Balance combo at all, which is extremely confusing. I think it may be related to multiple WoL's being ran, but I'm not 100% sure enough to make an official statement.

Ah yeah that's in line with what I thought. We have three Lightning WoEs, so I guess that's why we hardly notice it.

Really difficult to test...maybe I can get us to test on a dummy in the next days.

PM me with your results if you wouldn't mind. Theories are better with more evidence!