What is the acceptable dps to achieve on the test dummy?

CPTRutt

I was testing my dps on the argonian target skeleton and was wondering what dps I should be getting on it to be considered good to run vet trials and hardmode etc..

AAbrigo

50k+

Anything under is just unacceptable.

DocFrost72

I may be off, but my guild suggests (self buffed) 27k bare minimum. Harder content like mol hm? I wouldn't present myself with less than 30k. (Or at all. No interest in hm mol)

CPTRutt

I was testing my magblade and was getting around 25k but I ran into sustain issues towards the end

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Under 1 minute 45 seconds is good.

dpencil

Yeah, 30-33k is usually the minimum I've seen people talk about, but different guilds are going to have different requirements depending on how serious they are about pushing high scores.

SirDopey

PC NA most guilds I've seen are asking for 25 - 30K self buffed to make it into core raiding events. Some MIGHT let you have an officer apply ele drain.

WarpigFunk

My guild requires an officer verified DPS test of no less than 30k for score runs, you can have one other person apply ele drain.

For just messing around 25k should be fine for most vet trials. But if you're going for speed, 30k is the bare minimum.

Vildebill

SirDopey wrote: »

PC NA most guilds I've seen are asking for 25 - 30K self buffed to make it into core raiding events. Some MIGHT let you have an officer apply ele drain.

Haha "MIGHT"? I would like to see a raid scenario where the healer "MIGHT" apply elemental drain. If you are specced for DPS fully you will have a very hard time sustaining without magickasteal and orbs, so it would be utterly absurd to ask someone do a DPS test without it.

OP, acceptable would differ a lot from different people. 25k DPS is absolutely enough for most content in the game. It will of course be better with more, with good gear and a good rotation you could pull up to 40k DPS alone and that should be the aim if you want to be in a good group, but mechanics wise you can complete most content with 25k. And that includes vMoL.

Turelus

Well this thread is depressing, I need to get off my butt and farm some gear one day but with Morrowind less than three months away I feel it would be a wasted effort.

Also that creep is crazy, a year and a half ago it was what 15k to be considered good DPS and 20k+ being something people bragged about.

Rickter

When my guild does dps checks, we have someone applying Major Fracture and Orbs/Shards and Ele Drain as this would simulate the raid setting. everything else is on them and yeah, looks like 25k-30k is the sweet spot with competitive groups pushing beyond 30k and posting parses close to 50k.

Ghost-Shot

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

ARIES SERPICO

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

DjMuscleboy02

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I agree wholeheartedly. To get a better feel of true dps on Xbox, we have the person performing the test unplug their router halfway through to simulate a raid environment.

zaria

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Yes its an controlled environment of soloing an dungeon boss who don't fight back

Raises one question about resistance and penetration. I do not know how its calculated.
Do high damage spells like crystal fragments or dark flare do better against resistance than low level DoT?
I find that spamming dark flare with Structured Entropy and Elemental Drain gives highest dps on dummy.
20-25% better than the sweep and DoT rotation.

Is elemental Drain usefully in an dungeon? outside of the magic regen? Yes in an pug it might be nobody else using it.
Against dummy I got an good increase in dps having it up.

As I understand tank should provide puncture so with elemental drain up magical resistance would be negated.

Against the dummy spinner looks like an very good set but would over penetrate a lot in an decent group.

amasuriel

Turelus wrote: »

Well this thread is depressing, I need to get off my butt and farm some gear one day but with Morrowind less than three months away I feel it would be a wasted effort.

Also that creep is crazy, a year and a half ago it was what 15k to be considered good DPS and 20k+ being something people bragged about.

Most of it is not about gear, for better or worse. See the comments in
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

The theoretical max DPS with easy to buy / craft gear (Willpower, Julianos, Martial Knowledge) is ~36k, the absolute BiS theoretical max (Ilambris, Moondancer, BSW) is ~42k.

So BiS will net you about 15% more DPS. Nothing to sneeze at to be sure, but if (like me) you are only pulling low 20s, suddenly getting a set of gold BiS gear isn't going to make you a killing machine.

amasuriel

zaria wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Yes its an controlled environment of soloing an dungeon boss who don't fight back

Raises one question about resistance and penetration. I do not know how its calculated.
Do high damage spells like crystal fragments or dark flare do better against resistance than low level DoT?
I find that spamming dark flare with Structured Entropy and Elemental Drain gives highest dps on dummy.
20-25% better than the sweep and DoT rotation.

Is elemental Drain usefully in an dungeon? outside of the magic regen? Yes in an pug it might be nobody else using it.
Against dummy I got an good increase in dps having it up.

As I understand tank should provide puncture so with elemental drain up magical resistance would be negated.

Against the dummy spinner looks like an very good set but would over penetrate a lot in an decent group.

Bosses, including the dummy, have ~18k resistances. Elemental Drain and Pierce Armor provide the same debuff and don't stack, so no need for both.

There are lots of threads that detail the resistance calculations, so I won't repeat them.

zaria

amasuriel wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Well this thread is depressing, I need to get off my butt and farm some gear one day but with Morrowind less than three months away I feel it would be a wasted effort.

Also that creep is crazy, a year and a half ago it was what 15k to be considered good DPS and 20k+ being something people bragged about.

Most of it is not about gear, for better or worse. See the comments in
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

The theoretical max DPS with easy to buy / craft gear (Willpower, Julianos, Martial Knowledge) is ~36k, the absolute BiS theoretical max (Ilambris, Moondancer, BSW) is ~42k.

So BiS will net you about 15% more DPS. Nothing to sneeze at to be sure, but if (like me) you are only pulling low 20s, suddenly getting a set of gold BiS gear isn't going to make you a killing machine.

Very interesting and about that I had understood, however as the switch from cheap to BiS gear adds lots of proc who would give more than 15% bonus with low dps.

How important is CP here, thinking 160, 300 and 600, with the adjustments you can do like going from regen to spell power in addition to the increased raw damage.

ARIES SERPICO

zaria wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Yes its an controlled environment of soloing an dungeon boss who don't fight back

Raises one question about resistance and penetration. I do not know how its calculated.
Do high damage spells like crystal fragments or dark flare do better against resistance than low level DoT?
I find that spamming dark flare with Structured Entropy and Elemental Drain gives highest dps on dummy.
20-25% better than the sweep and DoT rotation.

Is elemental Drain usefully in an dungeon? outside of the magic regen? Yes in an pug it might be nobody else using it.
Against dummy I got an good increase in dps having it up.

As I understand tank should provide puncture so with elemental drain up magical resistance would be negated.

Against the dummy spinner looks like an very good set but would over penetrate a lot in an decent group.

So what do you recommend we do to truly test dps, which delve boss, World boss, dungeon boss or trial boss do we test on instead of dummy. Bloodspawn/Slimcraw??
And yes unplug Xbox is totally the console way. Lol

Qbiken

25k is a number to aim for. Just remember: DPS is a group effort, not soloeffort.

Khivas_Carrick

I got 20k after being gone for a year, thought I was good, and here people are spouting off 30 to 50k lol

*** me

Ghost-Shot

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Baseline dps in a controlled environment is information that is ultimately useful to nobody. The dps requirements very from fight to fight and to get a proper baseline you would need to bring in basically a full raid team to make sure you have full buffs/debuffs you would have in a real fight, at that point just go do a raid and see what they are actually capable of. As an example, I typically parse somewhere around 35-37k on a dummy with only my ele drain and flames for debuffs, I typically see 42-44k on a Rakkaht parse.

So what useful information did I get out of the dummy? On PC it can be useful when paired with the combat metrics add on to see up times on buffs and dots and such, but that's about it.

Kammakazi

On any class at least 1 minute and 45 seconds, or less.

Which (my math is horrible) should be like 25k-30k damage.

Higher in dungeon/trial settings.

ARIES SERPICO

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Baseline dps in a controlled environment is information that is ultimately useful to nobody. The dps requirements very from fight to fight and to get a proper baseline you would need to bring in basically a full raid team to make sure you have full buffs/debuffs you would have in a real fight, at that point just go do a raid and see what they are actually capable of. As an example, I typically parse somewhere around 35-37k on a dummy with only my ele drain and flames for debuffs, I typically see 42-44k on a Rakkaht parse.

So what useful information did I get out of the dummy? On PC it can be useful when paired with the combat metrics add on to see up times on buffs and dots and such, but that's about it.

So you dps test folks on rakkat? Since we console lowbies don't have addons what info do you use to build a raid group if it's all useless?

Khivas_Carrick

Repeated trial and error.


Those were some dark, dark days.

zaria

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Yes its an controlled environment of soloing an dungeon boss who don't fight back

Raises one question about resistance and penetration. I do not know how its calculated.
Do high damage spells like crystal fragments or dark flare do better against resistance than low level DoT?
I find that spamming dark flare with Structured Entropy and Elemental Drain gives highest dps on dummy.
20-25% better than the sweep and DoT rotation.

Is elemental Drain usefully in an dungeon? outside of the magic regen? Yes in an pug it might be nobody else using it.
Against dummy I got an good increase in dps having it up.

As I understand tank should provide puncture so with elemental drain up magical resistance would be negated.

Against the dummy spinner looks like an very good set but would over penetrate a lot in an decent group.

So what do you recommend we do to truly test dps, which delve boss, World boss, dungeon boss or trial boss do we test on instead of dummy. Bloodspawn/Slimcraw??
And yes unplug Xbox is totally the console way. Lol

No the dummy is nice, extremely useful in learning an rotation for one, in an pug you can not expect resources either and overland stuff never give you sustain issues so this is the second benefit.

However you risk of making an build who is good at killing the dummy, not anything else
This is an extremely common problems, cars designed to do well in emission tests, not in real world.
Not ony your target as an student, but the education system is designed to do well at exams, not learning useful stuff

ARIES SERPICO

zaria wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Yes its an controlled environment of soloing an dungeon boss who don't fight back

Raises one question about resistance and penetration. I do not know how its calculated.
Do high damage spells like crystal fragments or dark flare do better against resistance than low level DoT?
I find that spamming dark flare with Structured Entropy and Elemental Drain gives highest dps on dummy.
20-25% better than the sweep and DoT rotation.

Is elemental Drain usefully in an dungeon? outside of the magic regen? Yes in an pug it might be nobody else using it.
Against dummy I got an good increase in dps having it up.

As I understand tank should provide puncture so with elemental drain up magical resistance would be negated.

Against the dummy spinner looks like an very good set but would over penetrate a lot in an decent group.

So what do you recommend we do to truly test dps, which delve boss, World boss, dungeon boss or trial boss do we test on instead of dummy. Bloodspawn/Slimcraw??
And yes unplug Xbox is totally the console way. Lol

No the dummy is nice, extremely useful in learning an rotation for one, in an pug you can not expect resources either and overland stuff never give you sustain issues so this is the second benefit.

However you risk of making an build who is good at killing the dummy, not anything else
This is an extremely common problems, cars designed to do well in emission tests, not in real world.
Not ony your target as an student, but the education system is designed to do well at exams, not learning useful stuff

I see I think you misunderstood what I was replying to with the dummy being irrelevant but on test no one should make a build to kill skele but use there trail set up and being a tank for puncture and have ele drain and see what they can do. But when people post the the dummy is totally irrelevant is very misleading and incorrect.

dpencil

One thing the dummy is very useful for is comparing changes with "all things being equal." So say I want to compare two 5-piece sets that I can use the same skill rotation on. Now I can run 5-10 tests with each set, doing the same thing in every parse, and compare how they do against each other. Or similarly, changing out one or two skills or morphs in a rotation and seeing how your parses differ.

Also, if everyone in the guild is tested on the dummy with the same buff parameters, it doesn't matter if the parses in an actual fight would be higher or lower than that. You're just comparing against the other players. If most players who would get a 40k parse on a certain boss will get 35k on a skeleton parse with limited buffs (substitute your own expectations of parse numbers), then when you see someone do 35k, you can expect them to pull 40k in the raid. So I guess I fail to see where "it's not the exact same as a raid environment" is a problem.

CoachPower

Turelus wrote: »

Well this thread is depressing, I need to get off my butt and farm some gear one day but with Morrowind less than three months away I feel it would be a wasted effort.

Also that creep is crazy, a year and a half ago it was what 15k to be considered good DPS and 20k+ being something people bragged about.

It's called progression.

Trihugger

A year and a half is a LONG ass time to only increase by this paltry ass amount of damage lol. Many games will see an expansion in that period in which damage literally doubles, if not more.

OOJIMMY

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

ARIES SERPICO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

The dps on a dummy is irrelevant, the only thing you should take from that number is whether or not your rotation is improving or testing different sets. Training dummies are for practice, not for actual dps tests, there are too many elements in real fights that aren't accounted for by a dummy from mechanics and movement and extra buffs you will have in a group setting.

I've heard this argument made about mechanics but how else can you truly test your rotation to get a baseline DPS? Understand mechanics change things so unless you want dps test on Rakkat the target dummy is absolutely useful in checking Maximum output in a controlled environment. Knowing mechanic is a different discussion but at least you know what your Guild mates can dps.

Baseline dps in a controlled environment is information that is ultimately useful to nobody. The dps requirements very from fight to fight and to get a proper baseline you would need to bring in basically a full raid team to make sure you have full buffs/debuffs you would have in a real fight, at that point just go do a raid and see what they are actually capable of. As an example, I typically parse somewhere around 35-37k on a dummy with only my ele drain and flames for debuffs, I typically see 42-44k on a Rakkaht parse.

So what useful information did I get out of the dummy? On PC it can be useful when paired with the combat metrics add on to see up times on buffs and dots and such, but that's about it.

The sunny DPS test shows who has better DPS between players.
Like you said you get right about 36k DPS on the dummy.
I get roughly 25k DPS on the dummy.
Who do you think will do better in a group raid?
That's what the DPS test for the dummy is used for.