How Villainous is Molag Bal really?

Woodenplank

In Elder Scrolls Online I find that Molag Bal, who is by all means the main antagonist, seems sort of (sorry Zenimax) dull and generically evil.

He is essentially pulling the same stunt that Mehrunes Dagon (daedric Prince of Destruction) tried in TES4: Oblivion, of invading Tamriel through a bunch of portals. Now of course; Molag Bal is trying to pull Tamriel into Coldharbour, which in a sense makes him the opposite of Dagon, but whatever.
He just seems generically evil with stuff like "the skins of those you love will fly as my banners" etc. etc.

But you look at the former Elder Scrolls games (read: ESO's source material) Molag Ball pulled some sinisher **** - like real micro-management sadistic stuff that's only barely referenced in ESO.
SPOILERS BELOW

In the Vampire quest of ESO you meet Lamae Bal, the Blood Matron, who comments that Molag Bal "ravaged her" - more accurately he r@ped her, and turned her into the first vampire. Lamae then proceeded to go berserk and r@ped the nedic tribesmen who had found her, turning them into vampires as well, starting a curse that would haunt Tamriel forever.

From Opusculus Lamae Bal (in-game Book)
"Savage and loveless, Bal profaned her body, and her screams became the Shrieking Winds, which still haunt certain winding fjords of Skyrim. Shedding a lone droplet of blood on her brow, Bal left Nirn, having sown his wrath."...

..."That night, Lamae rose from her funeral pyre, and set upon the coven, still aflame. She ripped the throats of the women, ate the eyes of the children, and *** their men as cruelly as Bal had ravished her."

In TES4: Oblivion the player could quest for Molag Bal's favor - you would continually assault and offend a local pacifist, a former hero who tragically lost his wife, and make him murder you (Molag Bal would return the player from the dead, once he had gotten the man to commit murder).

In TES5: Skyrim Molag Bal had the player beat a priest of Boethiah (daedric prince of plots and enemy of Molag Bal) to death - several times - to make him finally surrender his soul to Molag Bal.

One of Molag Bal's titles is actually "the king of r@pe" - and I do kind of understand why ZOS downplayed that, as a lot of people would take offense. But what I liked about TES was that they always seemed to take stuff a step further... In Morrowind you could actually meet a dremora that vowed to murder you and then "r@pe your corpse". Now that's the sort of twisted you don't get from "I will pull Tamriel into Coldharbour and make people my slaves, etc. etc."

P.S. I have to spell it as "r@pe" because the word is actually censored, which seems odd given that it is one of the canon-titles of the main antagonist.

mb10

A shame because that is it for Molag Bal and ESO. His storyline is over since the Imperial City quest line. Thats why all the new DLC zones have no dark anchors and we never hear from him anymore. That whole chapter of ESO is done.

Interestingly enough too, the year 2E 582 is the year of the start of ESO but there is a book in Orsinium that dates 2E 583 which ofc suggests that time is passing in the game along with DLCs.
Im willing to bet that the diaries in Morrowind will state 2E 584 and from now on there will be different antagonists.

Just a shame we didnt find out what really happened to Clivia Tharn or Abnur Tharn after the events on Imperial City and the main quest. Hopefully that gets revealed to us at some stage.

Tryxus

Daedric Princes aren't exactly good or evil by our (mortal) standards, they are more... extreme I think is the word. Each Prince has its own sphere of influence like Domination (Molag Bal), Madness (Sheogorath), Dreams (Vaermina)... but they all take it to a whole new level that it may seem evil to us.

A good example would be Sanguine, Lord of Debauchery. He loves to throw parties and ***, drink a lot, goof around, prank people... so at first it may seem he's not all that evil. But if you've been at Sanguine's Demesne, you'll find out that his parties last forever with the mortal party-goers being unable to leave and continuously being bullied/tortured by the Daedra there. Party till you drop

Molag Bal is similar, with his sphere being Domination. He wants to control others, enslave them through any means necessary: strength (Skyrim's quest), illusions (Stibbons in Coldharbour), Schemes (Oblivion's quest) and... well... other involuntary stuff... (Lamae and Daughters of Coldharbour)

Those things are evil ofc. But he takes it to a whole new level like in this game: merging Nirn with his realm of Coldharbour

Amayna

"The skins of your loved ones will fly as my banner" - Molag Bal, That's pretty "Villainous" LOL!

AhPook_Is_Here

Anyone who has the hots for Vivic can't be all bad. Besides, Molag is more of a rap-star than a villain, he talks about his gangsta ways and fronts but when it comes to tossing down it's always, "I would have got away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!".

Woodenplank

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Anyone who has the hots for Vivic can't be all bad. Besides, Molag is more of a rap-star than a villain, he talks about his gangsta ways and fronts but when it comes to tossing down it's always, "I would have got away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!".

Honestly it seems everyone Vivec meets have the hots on for him in one way or another.

And yeah Molag Bal is not inherently 'evil' given that Daedra act outside of reflection and ideals. They just act according to a determined sphere, as he says in the 36 Sermons... "My love is accidentally shaped like a spear." - indicating that he, perhaps, does not really control his actions in that regard.
It just so happens that Molag Bal's sphere is all about murder-r@pe-forceful-enslavement, so he comes off as a pretty messed up guy.

Amayna wrote: »

"The skins of your loved ones will fly as my banner" - Molag Bal, That's pretty "Villainous" LOL!

Oh yes it's evil alright, but my point was that it was very, very cliché. It sounds so over-the-top sadistic that it becomes sort of boring in its senselessness.

When the dremora in Morrowind said "After I kill you, I will r@pe your corpse. Don't worry. I'll be gentle" it felt truly disturbing.

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Anastian

To be honest, I am more concerned with how Mannimarco was fleshed out as a pretty average villain, who's just greedy and wants "power". Molag Bal's nature is to dominate everything, and he has probably shown more charisma than say, Alduin. To be honest, I liked his character way more than other villains in Bethesda/Zenimax games (Main quest ones, for some reason the side quests keep being way more intriguing than main quests in their games; even Angof the Undying has a pretty curious lore behind)

Euant

I enjoyed him as a continual antagonist throughout the game. What I didn't enjoy was the ending.

*SPOILERS*

Once we defeat him he tries to play the good-guy card. "I could have protected you. I would have been an ok master. Your savior is the real bad guy! OMINOUS FORESHAAADOOOWW!" Then to have Meridia say "This all probably worked out in his favor, actually!" really kills the mood for me. That discredited me as a hero, Meridia as a supporter, and Molag as a villain all in one swoop.

*END SPOILERS*

stevepdodson_ESO888

"He is essentially pulling the same stunt that Mehrunes Dagon (daedric Prince of Destruction) tried in TES4: Oblivion"

to quote OP from above...and just to be a real pain in the butt...actually that would mean Mehrunes Dagon is copying Molag Bal as this is set before TES4 Oblivion

raidentenshu_ESO

I strongly believe that zos actually toned down Molag Bal so severely to the point where they actually made him dull and generic.

If you compare Molag Bal from Skyrim to the Molag bal from Elder Scrolls Online you could clearly see the difference.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=24pGZ82qdMA

In Skyrim Molag Bal is it's far more serious as the antagonist, and I actually believe that he is the Lord of brutality and the Lord of domination.

In the Elder Scrolls Online version of Molag Bal he sounds generic and dull. His dialogue from dolmens sounds weak, and whiny has the Lord of brutality and domination.

Molydeus

All of the main Elder Scrolls characters are downplayed and lame in ESO. This doesn't just hold true for villains, but also for every main character from Elder Scrolls history. They are either spazzes, screwballs, pansies, dullards, or totally uninteresting. I really like this game but they did a terrible job with the historical figures.

Indigochild3rdi

My thing with the daedric princes is they are evil in our beliefs and morals but not by there's. it's there nature to be that way. I don't think they can really control how they feel because that's just who they are. It's not like the Christian lucifer story where he started good and got cast from heaven for defying god or in our case the aedra. It's just who they are so are they really evil at all? Why are yalls thoughts?

Woodenplank

Indigochild3rdi wrote: »

My thing with the daedric princes is they are evil in our beliefs and morals but not by theirs. it's their nature to be that way. I don't think they can really control how they feel because that's just who they are. It's not like the Christian lucifer story where he started good and got cast from heaven for defying god or in our case the aedra. It's just who they are so are they really evil at all? Why are yalls thoughts?

Quoting myself seems messed up... but then again...

Woodenplank wrote: »

And yeah Molag Bal is not inherently 'evil' given that Daedra act outside of reflection and ideals. They just act according to a determined sphere, as he says in the 36 Sermons... "My love is accidentally shaped like a spear." - indicating that he, perhaps, does not really control his actions in that regard.
It just so happens that Molag Bal's sphere is all about murder-r@pe-forceful-enslavement, so he comes off as a pretty messed up guy.

That being said; I don't see how all the daedric princes could use this excuse/explanation.
Meridia for instance is just "associated with the essence of living things", and Azura is the Prince of Dawn and Dusk - so by which motives do they manipulate mortals?
Well Meridia hates undead, so I suppose that explains her opposition to Molag Bal (the whole zombie army & creating vampires in the first place incident...) but why does Azura do what Azura does? To make the sun rise and set?

Nova Sky

Malcolm McDowell will *always* be my Molag Bal.

AFrostWolf

Agree. Imperial City can't be the end. WE NEED MORE MOLAG BAL!

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Acrolas

Bal and Mannimarco are Marvel Movie villains. They do a lot of poetic screaming, send waves of mobs after you, but aren't given much characterization in the time they're given.

It's Abnur Tharn who is the far more interesting antagonist. You know he's not good, and yet, we see him as a man with very human desires, impulses, and ambitions. ESO needs more of him and less of the poetic screamers.

Woodenplank

Acrolas wrote: »

Bal and Mannimarco are Marvel Movie villains. They do a lot of poetic screaming, send waves of mobs after you, but aren't given much characterization in the time they're given.

Exactly my point; the whole "The skins of those you love..." comment sounds intimidating enough, but it's all reduced to impotent peacocking when he never actually kills anyone, like, at all.

Acrolas wrote: »

It's Abnur Tharn who is the far more interesting antagonist. You know he's not good, and yet, we see him as a man with very human desires, impulses, and ambitions. ESO needs more of him and less of the poetic screamers.

Indeed! He was my favourite character out of the Main Quest as well, mostly because he is not A. Obvious wholly, charicature'ish good-guy and B. Not part of a loving couple BWAAHH story.
And he's witty too "Next time you're hiding something from the most powerful necromancer Tamriel has known, consider not hiding it in a bloody tomb! - and he has a point...


For the expansion/DLC after Morrowind, could you please make Molag Bal do something more sinister? Enslaving Tamriel was, in a barefaced way, a show of his domination side.
But something more sinister than these Hollywood plots does more to make him look like a villain. Like make a very likeable character for the player to follow (and I'm not talking "woodelf cutesy" "likeable"), and then after the connects with them in some way - have Molag Bal abduct and torture them till he/she goes insane and start working for Bal - Now that's a villain.

runagate

Well, he did try to drop anchors into the land powered by sacrifices and attended by hordes of evil daedra to attempt to pull the entire continent (not sure about the places outside of Tamriel) into his realm.

I think large-scale evil is upping the ante from mere small scale messing with individuals, no?

Woodenplank

runagate wrote: »

Well, he did try to drop anchors into the land powered by sacrifices and attended by hordes of evil daedra to attempt to pull the entire continent (not sure about the places outside of Tamriel) into his realm.

I think large-scale evil is upping the ante from mere small scale messing with individuals, no?

But it's so generic and boring!

The thing about humans is that while we may sometimes glimpse the bigger picture, we never truly see and feel it.
Do holocaust jokes make you feel sick? Probably not really.
I read a story about a guy who murdered a woman he met on Tinder because she refused to have sex with her, and in his apartment they found human bones and nitrous acid (for disolving bodies). He likely only killed two people, against ***'s six millions.

But dammit if the second bit doesn't make me feel more sick than a Holocaust reference.

Publius_Scipio

Disturbing post ^

runagate

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Disturbing post ^

Yep, totally agree, can't think of something that is more the opposite of how I feel than that example.

MLGProPlayer

Molag Bal was a terrible villain.

I mean, he is known as the:

- God of Schemes
- King of ***
- Harvester of Souls
- Lord of Brutality
- Prince of Rage

It doesn't get more generically evil than that. His character had zero depth.

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t3hdubzy

In a game of go here talk to this person press this button, did you expect story telling at the the level of sundance? Desperate house wives have deeper plots.

Woodenplank

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Disturbing post ^

Disturbing world we live in.
I can assure you I only read the headline, didn't feel like I could stomach reading through the entirety of such an article.

And no; I definitely don't want ESO to make me feel like that - thankfully we only get animated faces and voice acting, so it's never too bad.
I was trying to make a point in extremes: you need villains to do smaller-scale terrible things, because they are more emotionally engaging than the large-scale Hollywood "I will destroy everything, RAWR!" kind of villains.

Then again; I might have gone too far brining stuff like that up on ESO forums - people tend to play video games to get away from the real world I guess, and if I upset anyone I do digress.
To lighten the mood here is a picture of a guar and a dunmer hugging.

Anacario

What about Bal do you guys find toned down, exactly? He's doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing. He is the Prince of domination and brutality, and he does a good job at it. Daedric Princes don't have personalities outside of their spheres because that's literally all they are: physical manifestations of their spheres. They are the essences of what they represent, and literally can not be anything more than that.

srfrogg23

Yeah, all I know is if the MG was as big and bad as the storyline makes him out to be, there wouldn't be much of a game. He would have won before we created our characters.

As it stands, he's a bit more of the lazily overconfident sort of villain and I'm ok with that

He kind of has that Dr. Evil thing going on.

Indigochild3rdi

@Anacario I guess he is toned down compared the the Skyrim bal. Especially when it comes down to Serena's story and how she became a vampire. But he's evil and terrifying in eso nonetheless