Are you *** kidding me with these AP adjustments

Sandman929

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

The Homestead AP levels are not excessive. Unless you are highly skilled, you can't take a resource alone.

Lol, what? I was soloing resources at V1 and I'm not what I'd call "highly skilled." It's even easier now with 600 CP and no doors to the tower. Taking a resource is 100% pve and any player that can reasonably pull their weight in a vet dungeon can do it.

Ah. I was thinking of non-CP campaigns, where people don't have any CP to back them up and getting disoriented, silenced, snared, or stunned by anywhere between five and ten NPCs means something.

Perhaps AP should be nerfed then. But only on Trueflame and like campaigns, if CP makes it as easy as you say.

CP makes it easier, but that's not why. If you go to the flag without killing some NPCs first, that's not going to go well. Aggro a few into the tower with you and break the fight up into smaller fights.
Even without CP, a resource isn't hard.

asneakybanana

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Ya know keeps are way more work to capture than an outpost, right?

Not really. The way players have been farming outposts on eu, by leaving the wall down, makes it so there are maybe 5 more NPCs that you have to contend with but it's really not a big change. Can still easily flip a keep in under a minute with the walls down and 12 ppl flipping flags.

Minno

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

At this point, I say just leave it be.

ZOS is trying to encourage people to fight elsewhere besides the ring...the only way to do that is make other objectives worth something.

They are at least trying. Cut them a little slack, its a game, not a job.

Make Drakelowe capture worth 50K AP.

Kill a Templar currently in an RD channel animation, get 50k AP.

Dorrino

Sneaky,

My personal opinion is that anything that takes people off the bridge is a good change.

Flipping keeps spread out players all over the map.

So let them flip.

ToRelax

Dorrino wrote: »

Sneaky,

My personal opinion is that anything that takes people off the bridge is a good change.

Flipping keeps spread out players all over the map.

So let them flip.

Everyone standing in the same outpost/keep -> No one is at the bridge -> Players are spread out.

Genius. :O

apostate9

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

What if ZOS made the entire faction's keep capture quest target the highest level outer enemy keep to send people to the same place away from the emp ring? They could make the reward something stupid high like 10k for returning the quest AND increase the defense tick for the defending faction so they have an incentive to leave the emp ring to defend the keep.

Or make Dragnonclaw, Drakelowe and Brindle strategically significant in some way. Give them some sort of shine that gives a buff, or a "quarry" that makes your other keep walls stronger if you hold it, or something. Make other strategic goals have parity with taking/keeping emp.

Dorrino

ToRelax wrote: »

Everyone standing in the same outpost/keep -> No one is at the bridge -> Players are spread out.

Genius. :O

People need to flip the keeps.

People can't flip the same keep, because that will require multiple factions organization, which is hard to do in a locked/close to locked campaigns.

So instead people run around the map flipping keeps in circles.

If that's not 'spreading people all over the map' i don't know what is.

FluffyReachWitch

Sandman929 wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

The Homestead AP levels are not excessive. Unless you are highly skilled, you can't take a resource alone.

Lol, what? I was soloing resources at V1 and I'm not what I'd call "highly skilled." It's even easier now with 600 CP and no doors to the tower. Taking a resource is 100% pve and any player that can reasonably pull their weight in a vet dungeon can do it.

Ah. I was thinking of non-CP campaigns, where people don't have any CP to back them up and getting disoriented, silenced, snared, or stunned by anywhere between five and ten NPCs means something.

Perhaps AP should be nerfed then. But only on Trueflame and like campaigns, if CP makes it as easy as you say.

CP makes it easier, but that's not why. If you go to the flag without killing some NPCs first, that's not going to go well. Aggro a few into the tower with you and break the fight up into smaller fights.
Even without CP, a resource isn't hard.

That and finding a spot where you can pull some of the NPCs before running into the tower even becomes necessary. But even then you still have a few guards to manage at once, which can be hard without certain skill combos or one or two people for backup. Knowing the break-up and tower strategy is just one part of it.

Anazasi

Come on lets be real here Sneaky. I know zos will never publish any of the testing results from this past week but we as players can surmise some of the findings.

1. player population is derived only from currency rewards. The high pops that we saw on TF NA PC support this and the behavior we saw was a direct result of this.
2. Players who are playing for PVP do not actually farm AP we simply move map objectives and at the end of the night laugh at what we made.
3. TF NA PC did not experience even a fraction of what you are so afraid of; and I only heard a few rumors over the weekend that Haderus NA PC was experiencing this.
4. On a campaign that is truly competitive where each faction is playing to win the worthless rewards and bragging rights farming AP simply doesn't happen under the conditions you are afraid of.
5. Observation: CP may be a contributing factor to lag when LARGE numbers of players are in proximity of each other.

The question at this point is do we allow it to happen on TF or do we simply continue to play the map as intended?

Stop being such a literalist and enjoy the fights. Work on spreading out the ball groups as we once all did and continue playing as you like. Surfing the zerg as this wonderful week brought was just worthless; it created terrible play and was only meant to ensure everyone got the base AP. Yeah lots of AP was made and the leaderboards are definitely screwed up but it's truly not the end of the world. What we can hope for realistically is some of the players who entered for the first time into PVP will stay and most of the PVE players will return to their worlds and enjoy the game.

Playing without CP was nostalgic and those that enjoyed it may continue on that type of campaign if that's what the want to do. But in all honestly the AP base is fine and the issue we all should be looking at is increasing the defense base. Just so we are all being honest here. AP is a worthless commodity. The rewards are sub par to all the other sets available and RNG is a vengeful God. So aside from your big worry that players will farm AP repeatedly from 1 keep is just simply a fear that could happen on TF NA PC.

ThePonzzz

Yeah, just pointing out, taking resources and even keeps by yourself is pretty easy. Keeps take awhile with no help, resources are a cake walk.

I do think the bridges and mile gates should be an obtainable objective for Cyrodiil. Could be fun.

ToRelax

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Everyone standing in the same outpost/keep -> No one is at the bridge -> Players are spread out.

Genius. :O

People need to flip the keeps.

People can't flip the same keep, because that will require multiple factions organization, which is hard to do in a locked/close to locked campaigns.

So instead people run around the map flipping keeps in circles.

If that's not 'spreading people all over the map' i don't know what is.

If you're okay with letting the cross faction keep flipping happen in otherwise empty campaigns, sure. Nevermind that would then also negate the incentive to spread out because it's so much easier to farm AP by simply joining in the farm. >_>

Jitterbug

Dorrino wrote: »

Sneaky,

My personal opinion is that anything that takes people off the bridge is a good change.

Flipping keeps spread out players all over the map.

So let them flip.

Pretty sad excuse for a pvp game mode though

asneakybanana

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

FluffyReachWitch

ThePonzzz wrote: »

I do think the bridges and mile gates should be an obtainable objective for Cyrodiil. Could be fun.

Seconding the bridge and mile gate ideas because it would add some interest and something else to take, plus a bonus for participating in a huge endless skirmish there. But I wonder how bridges and gates would then come into play? Would they have guards like towns and resources, or would they become closed like keeps and impassable to other factions? If the second were the case, that could change the strategy for the map. Would make it hard for PvE questers and explorers to get around though....

NBrookus

Sandman929 wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

The Homestead AP levels are not excessive. Unless you are highly skilled, you can't take a resource alone.

Lol, what? I was soloing resources at V1 and I'm not what I'd call "highly skilled." It's even easier now with 600 CP and no doors to the tower. Taking a resource is 100% pve and any player that can reasonably pull their weight in a vet dungeon can do it.

Ah. I was thinking of non-CP campaigns, where people don't have any CP to back them up and getting disoriented, silenced, snared, or stunned by anywhere between five and ten NPCs means something.

Perhaps AP should be nerfed then. But only on Trueflame and like campaigns, if CP makes it as easy as you say.

CP makes it easier, but that's not why. If you go to the flag without killing some NPCs first, that's not going to go well. Aggro a few into the tower with you and break the fight up into smaller fights.
Even without CP, a resource isn't hard.

If you yolo onto the pin at a level 5 resource with no CP, yeah, it's rough. But even when they still had tower doors and there was no CP, soloing a resource was quite doable. More so on some classes than others.

I do think the NPCs have gotten harder since then, though, especially for magicka users. Bubbles and negates everywhere.

apostate9

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

I do think the bridges and mile gates should be an obtainable objective for Cyrodiil. Could be fun.

Seconding the bridge and mile gate ideas because it would add some interest and something else to take, plus a bonus for participating in a huge endless skirmish there. But I wonder how bridges and gates would then come into play? Would they have guards like towns and resources, or would they become closed like keeps and impassable to other factions? If the second were the case, that could change the strategy for the map. Would make it hard for PvE questers and explorers to get around though....

Well yeah, they are chokepoints and were always going to see a lot of action. So sure, make them capturable objectives. Put say, 2 NPC nukers on top when your faction takes it. Not enough to make getting through on off-hours impossible for questers, but just enough firepower to make the owning faction feel like they "own" it.

AlwaysOnFire

RE: on the "taking a resource alone is hard" topic.

I would say that it *is* hard-- to people who aren't geared, specced, and informed how to do it. All of those things are accumulated resources or learned skills. Something that is "easy if you know how/easy if you have skills/easy if you have gear" isn't actually easy. It's just subjectively easy to someone who is prepared to do it. Less of an issue on Trueflame and where it's assumed that you're already adept maybe. But we shouldn't forget not everyone pops out of the womb wearing rattlecage or black rose.

Game design works by placing obtainable objectives in front of players who have yet to aggregate those resources, spend that time, learn a strategy, or cultivate skill. These players are then motivated to invest time, money, and effort into attaining these advantages and reducing the difficulty level of the content. If the objectives are not obtainable with investment, fewer players are motivated to take them. If the objectives do not compensate the player sufficiently for their effort, fewer players are motivated to take them.

However, the 'but I want to AP farm and that should be the only profitable means of acquiring AP' perspective does not desire appropriately skilled, geared, and specced opponents. It directly profits an AP farmer to have endless masses of unprepared participants face them who do not have much motivation or incentive to become more difficult to farm other than the inevitability of dying a lot.

So an AP farmer would not want attainable, rewarding alternate goals for people who aren't already their peers. It doesn't benefit them. And even when the 'easy prey' model causes many players to get tired and leave, that just leaves opponent zones less populated and easier to dominate.

Overall, an environment that is better-balanced to encourage skillful play results in a more sustainably challenging and satisfying campaign for all sides, and ensures a healthier skill gain progression of new players. For all people whine about PuGgies, I would think this is exactly what many would want. Don't think of it as more rewards for 'easy' content, but instead a better incentive for people for whom the game is not yet easy to, as they say, git gud.

ThePonzzz

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

RE: on the "taking a resource alone is hard" topic.

I would say that it *is* hard-- to people who aren't geared, specced, and informed how to do it. All of those things are accumulated resources or learned skills. Something that is "easy if you know how/easy if you have skills/easy if you have gear" isn't actually easy. It's just subjectively easy to someone who is prepared to do it. Less of an issue on Trueflame and where it's assumed that you're already adept maybe. But we shouldn't forget not everyone pops out of the womb wearing rattlecage or black rose.

Game design works by placing obtainable objectives in front of players who have yet to aggregate those resources, spend that time, learn a strategy, or cultivate skill. These players are then motivated to invest time, money, and effort into attaining these advantages and reducing the difficulty level of the content. If the objectives are not obtainable with investment, fewer players are motivated to take them. If the objectives do not compensate the player sufficiently for their effort, fewer players are motivated to take them.

However, the 'but I want to AP farm and that should be the only profitable means of acquiring AP' perspective does not desire appropriately skilled, geared, and specced opponents. It directly profits an AP farmer to have endless masses of unprepared participants face them who do not have much motivation or incentive to become more difficult to farm other than the inevitability of dying a lot.

So an AP farmer would not want attainable, rewarding alternate goals for people who aren't already their peers. It doesn't benefit them. And even when the 'easy prey' model causes many players to get tired and leave, that just leaves opponent zones less populated and easier to dominate.

Overall, an environment that is better-balanced to encourage skillful play results in a more sustainably challenging and satisfying campaign for all sides, and ensures a healthier skill gain progression of new players. For all people whine about PuGgies, I would think this is exactly what many would want. Don't think of it as more rewards for 'easy' content, but instead a better incentive for people for whom the game is not yet easy to, as they say, git gud.

Well yeah, that goes without saying that you have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything. That includes the basic mechanics of the game. But to say resources are hard to take would be like saying the game is hard to play.

NBrookus

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

RE: on the "taking a resource alone is hard" topic.

I would say that it *is* hard-- to people who aren't geared, specced, and informed how to do it. All of those things are accumulated resources or learned skills. Something that is "easy if you know how/easy if you have skills/easy if you have gear" isn't actually easy.

No one said you didn't have to learn how to do it. I died like 20 times trying to solo my first resource, not even knowing there were resource levels and starting with a level 5 wasn't a good idea. But nobody had told me it was too hard to do, or I never would have tried in the first place.

AlwaysOnFire

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Well yeah, that goes without saying that you have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything. That includes the basic mechanics of the game. But to say resources are hard to take would be like saying the game is hard to play.

You... do understand that just because you have achieved something, that doesn't make it objectively easy, right? Until it becomes easy, the game is 'hard to play' for people. What you deem 'basic mechanics' are not flawlessly intuitive to everybody, and people will often not learn them unless they are properly compensated for doing so. Else, why bother? Just go do something else more rewarding with your time otherwise.

And Zenimax is probably not developing a game based on that the game is easy for you personally, but likely is considering players that are not yet where you are. Players that give up won't partake of content they spend time and money to develop, so a good developer takes time to balance the difficulty/reward of certain activities not for you, but for those who actually need incentive to master the content.

It's like looking at a kid who's not motivated to learn algebra and telling them "math's not hard. you just have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything."

They'll never learn or want to learn unless there's more in it for them than just a lack of contempt from people who condescended to them about it. It's inadvertently calling them stupid, because if you find it easy, and they don't find it easy, then they must just be objectively worse than you at something that doesn't benefit them anyway. By increasing the reward, people are more likely to learn, use, and master the mechanics that you deem basic. And in turn this has an impact on how the game flows and what the environment is like, and how good it is at retaining players. Assuming everything is easy and thus not worth rewarding is a disservice to practically everybody who doesn't have a "screw you, I got mine" attitude.

Zenimax's design is trying to encourage people to become your peer, and so by making the content more rewarding people who would never otherwise invest in that content will do so, and soon they too will find it 'easy.'

AlwaysOnFire

NBrookus wrote: »

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

RE: on the "taking a resource alone is hard" topic.

I would say that it *is* hard-- to people who aren't geared, specced, and informed how to do it. All of those things are accumulated resources or learned skills. Something that is "easy if you know how/easy if you have skills/easy if you have gear" isn't actually easy.

No one said you didn't have to learn how to do it. I died like 20 times trying to solo my first resource, not even knowing there were resource levels and starting with a level 5 wasn't a good idea. But nobody had told me it was too hard to do, or I never would have tried in the first place.

I'm... not sure why this is relavent. That's almost everybody's first experience. Nobody by saying that the game is not easy for a beginner is stating that things are 'too hard.' and discouraging them. That's not even come up.

By rewarding efforts like your first attempts more strongly, people are encouraged to learn how to increase in skill and attain them on their own-- to succeed.

Nerfing rewards such that they're nothing to aspire to just causes less people to try, and causes people to try less frequently, and causes skilled players to not bother with passing on the skills or strategies to achieve these goals because why bother with something so trivial unless it's mandatory like to cut the keep off or weaken its defenses-- at which point no one is soloing these things anyway and no one will learn small-group or single-player strategies by standing in the middle of a mob of 25 people.

Sandman929

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

You... do understand that just because you have achieved something, that doesn't make it objectively easy, right?

True, "easy" is probably a poor word choice. It just becomes routine after you've learned and practiced doing something repeatedly.

On some builds, and without practice, soloing a resource could be challenging.

ToRelax

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Well yeah, that goes without saying that you have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything. That includes the basic mechanics of the game. But to say resources are hard to take would be like saying the game is hard to play.

You... do understand that just because you have achieved something, that doesn't make it objectively easy, right? Until it becomes easy, the game is 'hard to play' for people. What you deem 'basic mechanics' are not flawlessly intuitive to everybody, and people will often not learn them unless they are properly compensated for doing so. Else, why bother? Just go do something else more rewarding with your time otherwise.

And Zenimax is probably not developing a game based on that the game is easy for you personally, but likely is considering players that are not yet where you are. Players that give up won't partake of content they spend time and money to develop, so a good developer takes time to balance the difficulty/reward of certain activities not for you, but for those who actually need incentive to master the content.

It's like looking at a kid who's not motivated to learn algebra and telling them "math's not hard. you just have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything."

They'll never learn or want to learn unless there's more in it for them than just a lack of contempt from people who condescended to them about it. It's inadvertently calling them stupid, because if you find it easy, and they don't find it easy, then they must just be objectively worse than you at something that doesn't benefit them anyway. By increasing the reward, people are more likely to learn, use, and master the mechanics that you deem basic. And in turn this has an impact on how the game flows and what the environment is like, and how good it is at retaining players. Assuming everything is easy and thus not worth rewarding is a disservice to practically everybody who doesn't have a "screw you, I got mine" attitude.

Zenimax's design is trying to encourage people to become your peer, and so by making the content more rewarding people who would never otherwise invest in that content will do so, and soon they too will find it 'easy.'

Just that you need to know how to do it doesn't make it not easy. In fact, it is an easy thing to learn (and yes, that is relative and subjective, I just happen to be experienced in the topic and think many players agree with me), thus making it 'easy'.

Satiar

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

asneakybanana

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It doesn't matter. There are guilds on eu that do that. There's so many ppl at the keep that you end up crashing and usually it's ad that does it killing the ep and DC and AD doesn't have locked pop on haderus so they end up basically losing the character until customer support moves it. I can guarantee you that if 30+ of each faction start doing it on haderus it will snowball until it's 100+ per faction and end up the same as eu

Satiar

asneakybanana wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It doesn't matter. There are guilds on eu that do that. There's so many ppl at the keep that you end up crashing and usually it's ad that does it killing the ep and DC and AD doesn't have locked pop on haderus so they end up basically losing the character until customer support moves it. I can guarantee you that if 30+ of each faction start doing it on haderus it will snowball until it's 100+ per faction and end up the same as eu

The way I've heard it, a lot of the better guilds on EU are involved with the farming, which is why it happens. I really can't see it happening on PC NA, too many groups that hate each other and too many strangely intense faction loyalists.

Dorrino

ToRelax wrote: »

If you're okay with letting the cross faction keep flipping happen in otherwise empty campaigns, sure. Nevermind that would then also negate the incentive to spread out because it's so much easier to farm AP by simply joining in the farm. >_>

I'm definitely ok with almost anything in empty campaigns, as long as the ap gains are on par with high pop campaigns.

6k per 5-10 min is an achievable number without keeps flipping.

And, generally, if you are already capable to have 2 groups with 10-15 people flipping a keep back and forth, why wouldn't you trade kills as well?

DHale

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It doesn't matter. There are guilds on eu that do that. There's so many ppl at the keep that you end up crashing and usually it's ad that does it killing the ep and DC and AD doesn't have locked pop on haderus so they end up basically losing the character until customer support moves it. I can guarantee you that if 30+ of each faction start doing it on haderus it will snowball until it's 100+ per faction and end up the same as eu

The way I've heard it, a lot of the better guilds on EU are involved with the farming, which is why it happens. I really can't see it happening on PC NA, too many groups that hate each other and too many strangely intense faction loyalists.

Wait.... I like DC And VE just fine. Drats.

SneaK

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It's not as easy as you think. We have big guilds with (some) morals on console too. But we also have 5 campaigns. We busted farms up on multiple camps but you just can't be everywhere at the same time. It was possible to police a campaign but not all.

asneakybanana

SneaK wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It's not as easy as you think. We have big guilds with (some) morals on console too. But we also have 5 campaigns. We busted farms up on multiple camps but you just can't be everywhere at the same time. It was possible to police a campaign but not all.

On PC EU there was a level 44 general