vMA - First Time Completion Character Reward?

Avran_Sylt

Been running vMA, so far gotten it down pat, know all the mechanics and such. but I'm an avid player, and have a lot of free time to practice and grind through vMA. I know not everyone does, and to incentivise more players to try and attempt vMA, perhaps a different first time completion reward could be implemented.

Edit: Old Thread, reach new one here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/325653/vma-a-reward-system-revamp

My question is this: Should there be a one time character bound quest for vMA that allows you to select one weapon/pair of random trait , after completion of vMA?

Edit: several people have brought up the issue of alt grinding for getting specific drops. If anyone has an idea on how to prevent this, please post.
Edit 2: an idea for circumventing player alt creation to grind specific vMA weapons would be to restrict the random trait pool offered to the first time completion reward, such as excluding sharpened from the pool.
Edit 3: The reward will be a specific weapon type (1h/shield, dual wield, bow,healing staff, destruction staff) of random trait and where applicable random subtype (dagger/axe,sword/mace,Gsword/Gaxe/Gmace), the random trait will exclude the sharpened, infused, and precise traits. (sharp for daggers,axes,Gweps|infused/sharp for bows|precise/sharp for staves) to still require some kind of grind for the perfect version.
Edit 4: Making this item bind on pickup is another workaround to the alt grinding issue. (tagged like a quest item maybe?)

brandonv516

So your first time you would get the chest reward and a quest reward...basically 2 chests?

Avran_Sylt

Yes

brandonv516 wrote: »

So your first time you would get the chest reward and a quest reward...basically 2 chests?

Oh, no.
First time you complete it the merchant appears at the end, where the chest should usually spawn. He runs a dialogue and gives you a reward of your choosing, closing statement of something like "feel free to try again another day, might find something better" then disappears.

Jim_Pipp

Yes

I did Vma and hated it, and decided I probably wouldn't do it again (I am rethinking that at the moment). It was worth doing though, it made me a better player, and it would be good for the game if more people did it, even if they just did it once.

However I think people who have already done Vma should be able to do the quest you are proposing.

rustic_potato

Yes

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

Unsent.Soul

No

What's stopping people from creating a new character each time they want this reward? Essentially gaming the system. Takes only hours to level a toon. The quest reward would have to be not so substantial.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

I did Vma and hated it, and decided I probably wouldn't do it again (I am rethinking that at the moment). It was worth doing though, it made me a better player, and it would be good for the game if more people did it, even if they just did it once.

However I think people who have already done Vma should be able to do the quest you are proposing.

Hmm, yeah. Was thinking the daily quest could look at your collections and use a boolean on weather or not you have the costume unlocked to give you that first time quest ending. which does not allow players who have completed it before to do it. Maybe put in a bool value similar to an achievement that the game can check against.

MissBizz

Yes

rustic_potato wrote: »

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

@rustic_potato the idea above says random trait though.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

What's stopping people from creating a new character each time they want this reward? Essentially gaming the system. Takes only hours to level a toon. The quest reward would have to be not so substantial.

Hmm. Fair point. Gonna think about that for a bit, prolly edit the main post concerning that issue.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

rustic_potato wrote: »

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

Yeah, this though is about allowing new players or players with little time to find vMA to be more palatable. This is definitely something I need to consider.

rustic_potato

Yes

MissBizz wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

@rustic_potato the idea above says random trait though.

Well isn't that what we already get?

Avran_Sylt

Yes

rustic_potato wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

@rustic_potato the idea above says random trait though.

Well isn't that what we already get?

Nah, this is about getting players into vMA who don't have much time to do vMA. Even having vMA weps that are not sharpened, perhaps decisive or powered can make a gigantic difference, or allow for more build paths. case in point the cruel flurry enchantment allows empowerment of the lacerate dual wield skill ult if you're stam. which means you get even more damage and healing (greater sustain).

edit: this is a first run bonus, only really useful for people likely to only run vMA once every few weeks or so.

However, grinding a character and then running vMA to get a 1 in 9 chance (or however many traits vMA can drop) is certainly something which can be exploited.

MLGProPlayer

What we need is a token system for vMA. A lot of people don't run vMA because of the insurmountable grind that awaits them when they start. It takes a few hundred hours, on average, to get the weapon you need.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What we need is a token system for vMA. A lot of people don't run vMA because of the insurmountable grind that awaits them when they start. It takes a few hundred hours, on average, to get the weapon you need.

It's a good idea, but this is more so about this scenario: consider yourself a stamblade, you complete vMA, but are rewarded a one hand and shield.
You're likely not going to have enough time to commit to vMA again until next week, or the week after, you've also got to grind to get all the mats and pots and soul gems you used up in this run. It's a daunting task and you'll likely be uninterested in running it again.

However, if you run it once, and can select which weapon you like , but given a random trait on it (perhaps a constrained trait so you'll never have the chance of obtaining sharpened from this drop, and also preventing alt grinding to exploit this feature). you now have the enchantment effect, and can change your build and experiment with it. perhaps running vMA again, but this time it will not be the same, as you'll be experimenting with the wep you got.

This idea is more aobut letting more casual players experiment with vMA weapons and their abilities.

Mordenkainen

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What we need is a token system for vMA. A lot of people don't run vMA because of the insurmountable grind that awaits them when they start. It takes a few hundred hours, on average, to get the weapon you need.

And another few hundred (at least feels that way.) to actually get through there the first time.

I am honestly shocked about how salt-inducing that Trial is to me.

bryanhaas

Perhaps - but implemented differently

Do it like trials where you get a coffer at the end, plus the chest but coffer is only once per week.

Bobby_V_Rockit

I would very much like to complete it, but been stuck on stage 2 for months. I run BiS gear and stock standard meta everything. It doesnt help me at all. I have given up even going back in. End of story, dont care what the reward is or how much easier the second run will be, I give up.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I would very much like to complete it, but been stuck on stage 2 for months. I run BiS gear and stock standard meta everything. It doesnt help me at all. I have given up even going back in. End of story, dont care what the reward is or how much easier the second run will be, I give up.

What class/gear are you running? I run completely off meta gear on my stamblade that focuses on survivability and not damage.

Troll King (purp)
Viper's Sting (some gold gear ,purp jewelry)
Torug's Pact 5pc
2 infused Daggers (not sharpened, with Disease and Hardening Enchant)

kuro-dono

WHO forgot to to mention, lots of ppl cant bother to run veteran maelstorm because of how unfun it is? spawns, bosses, mechanics, lagg/graphic delay, instant kills middle of nowhere, and no any kind of idea what you should be expecting when comparing normal to veteran. just big waste of time.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

bryanhaas wrote: »

Do it like trials where you get a coffer at the end, plus the chest but coffer is only once per week.

Would the reward be random like in the trials? a weekly bonus would be a nice idea though.

Meld777

Yes

rustic_potato wrote: »

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

What's the difference? Practically same thing. And for those that haven't grinded the arena enough to do consecutive Flawless runs with their eyes closed in 30 min, they can simply use the sigils. Defensive sigil makes you pretty much immortal in there.

MakoFore

i think there should be some kind of award for completing it with different classes. like an account wide title or something for those that spend the time, effort and so on to master multiple classes in the game- which isn't easy.

MissBizz

Yes

rustic_potato wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

I agree for the first Flawless run.. vMA would become a joke otherwise.. I can get all my gear by essentially making a toon grinding it to max level in 8-10 hours and getting a weapon of my choice, delete the toon and rinse repeat.

@rustic_potato the idea above says random trait though.

Well isn't that what we already get?

At least you could get the weapon you want.

Triipzzz

"select one weapon/pair of random trait , after completion of vMA?"

I personally have a few objections to your Idea.

1. Handing over a perfect weapon with your desired trait will not make people enjoy that trial any more.

2. I hate RNG as much as anybody, especially when bow and resto drops were more than double any other weapon drops last patch and since the trial was first put out in the orsinium dlc. Its not random after all if the drop chance of something is greater than something else. I think its best described as rigged RNG.

Update 12 Drop chances.

Before homestead the 2h weapons chance including mauls, swords, dresto's was 5.56% where as one handed weps were 8.33%. That left resto's and bows at 16.67%. I know right?!?! Random drop chance?

Update 13 Drop chances.

Now after homestead everything is 8.33%. Why it wasn't in the first place and after they called them random drops still makes me wonder.

3. Its simply not fair on older players that already worked twice as hard. Im not day one but have played long enough and done enough maelstrom runs to know that it used to be alot harder for a number of reasons. Lower CP by more than 100 if you weren't at cap. THE CHEST DID NOT GUARANTEE A DROP. And the adds were simply harder to kill before scaling and that rubbish. The chest one was the darkest though, I remember doing 5 runs with no drop. Then you do a run get a drop and its got a 16% resto chance.

For someone that can do back to back runs almost flawless when cruising and get some characters on the leaderboards, I still hate that hell hole because of how long and hard it was to get anything I wanted. I would say consider yourselves fortunate they have made it better and try to get leaderboards if you want an extra chance at a weapons. And the leaderboard ones are yellow.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

Triipzzz wrote: »

"select one weapon/pair of random trait , after completion of vMA?"

I personally have a few objections to your Idea.

1. Handing over a perfect weapon with your desired trait will not make people enjoy that trial any more.

2. I hate RNG as much as anybody, especially when bow and resto drops were more than double any other weapon drops last patch and since the trial was first put out in the orsinium dlc. Its not random after all if the drop chance of something is greater than something else. I think its best described as rigged RNG.

Update 12 Drop chances.

Before homestead the 2h weapons chance including mauls, swords, dresto's was 5.56% where as one handed weps were 8.33%. That left resto's and bows at 16.67%. I know right?!?! Random drop chance?

Update 13 Drop chances.

Now after homestead everything is 8.33%. Why it wasn't in the first place and after they called them random drops still makes me wonder.

3. Its simply not fair on older players that already worked twice as hard. Im not day one but have played long enough and done enough maelstrom runs to know that it used to be alot harder for a number of reasons. Lower CP by more than 100 if you weren't at cap. THE CHEST DID NOT GUARANTEE A DROP. And the adds were simply harder to kill before scaling and that rubbish. The chest one was the darkest though, I remember doing 5 runs with no drop. Then you do a run get a drop and its got a 16% resto chance.

For someone that can do back to back runs almost flawless when cruising and get some characters on the leaderboards, I still hate that hell hole because of how long and hard it was to get anything I wanted. I would say consider yourselves fortunate they have made it better and try to get leaderboards if you want an extra chance at a weapons. And the leaderboard ones are yellow.

I understand your concerns, however, on point 1, I do mention random traits, you can pick a weapon, but cannot choose your trait. To make it more fair, new to old, for the first run, while you can choose your weapon, perhaps an additional constraint of no powered or sharpened traits would be best (resto and other weps respectively, infused for bow). Thus still requiring the grind for the perfect weapon.

On point 2, This entire idea is about allowing players with little time a form of progression on vMA. First time you complete this you're given the opportunity to choose the vMA weapon type you're aiming for but, not the specific trait you're looking for. you still need to grind for the perfect weapon, but can try out the enchantment.

On point 3, you do have a point. which is why I think this "First Completion" bonus should become active for all characters when first released, even if vMA has been completed.

Meld777

Yes

Triipzzz wrote: »

THE CHEST DID NOT GUARANTEE A DROP.

@Triipzzz
What's the difference between a Powered Sword and a Well-Fitted Helm of Glory? The chest had officially a 50% chance to drop the weapon. What you forgot, however, is that IF you got a weapon, it was a useful trait, as the traits weren't polluted and the leaderboard guaranteed a weapon in a good trait!

Result: Run it 5 times on 5 characters, get 5 vMA weapons in a good trait every week.

Now: Leaderboard is useless as it is the same trash as chest. And even with the improved system the chances to get a Sharpened Inferno are still significantly lower than with a 50% weapon chance and useful traits. I've done the math multiple times before in posts. Gotta run now... but since your other numbers are correct, you can easily do it yourself.

Same as you, I can breeze flawless through vMA in 30 min. Approaching 600 runs now with continuous leaderboard rewards. Not a single Sharpened or Precise Inferno. I would have zero problem if they just put a vendor for everyone selling those weapons for 10 gold. And even if I got my staff tomorrow, I would have no problem with that. I want to be competitive. I don't care if some noob has the same weapon. He won't be able to use it the way I can. It would be different if vMA was about earning the weapon. But it has nothing to do with "working for it". It's an unfair system where a noob can get it on his first run after struggling for months and someone else can run it 1000+ times and not get it. Out of my almost 600 runs, 500+ are flawless. Have I not mastered this place enough to deserve a reward I can actually use for my build?

Yo_Donno

Perhaps - but implemented differently

Just make the weapon that drops off this quest bound to the character.
To clarify, normal maelstrom drops can still be put in the bank, but the chosen weapon from this quest can not.

Triipzzz

Meld777 wrote: »

Triipzzz wrote: »

THE CHEST DID NOT GUARANTEE A DROP.

@Triipzzz
But it has nothing to do with "working for it".

I totally agree. We are practically crying for some kind of token system because everyone works for it by completing it. I wasn't trying to say give everyone a perfect weapon with desired trait first time but rather expressing how it is alot easier to get a specific weapon if you don't care about your trait to start with. After you get that weapon, the next logical step is bettering the trait. Which is practically impossible because your chances are based on luck.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

Yo_Donno wrote: »

Just make the weapon that drops off this quest bound to the character.
To clarify, normal maelstrom drops can still be put in the bank, but the chosen weapon from this quest can not.

I like that idea. bind on pickup.

Edit: just realized exactly what you meant. sounds good, but at the same time players could complain about it "taking up inventory space"

Triipzzz

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Triipzzz wrote: »

"select one weapon/pair of random trait , after completion of vMA?"


On point 2, This entire idea is about allowing players with little time a form of progression on vMA.

I forgot to mention Maelstom has come along way from its bugy past where saving was extremely difficult requiring the user to compelte the run in one go at some points. These days if you grab the quest your progress is saved gauranteed. An arena a night for a new player that has done research on build and mechanics should easily be enough time to get it done first time.

I do not mind the player receiving a weapon of their choice first time round and agree with you. But I would like to point out a small grind is ok but 100's of runs is ridiculous and kills the arena and gives it a bad reputation. I suggest like many others a tokens system. It will keep the small grind in place to earn the tokens but remove the months-long grind by guaranteeing weapons bought with tokens. Hell, I wouldn't even care if you could buy a 2h mace lock box and receive a 2h Mace in a random trait. Just something to improve the odds.

Avran_Sylt

Yes

Triipzzz wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Triipzzz wrote: »

"select one weapon/pair of random trait , after completion of vMA?"


On point 2, This entire idea is about allowing players with little time a form of progression on vMA.

I forgot to mention Maelstom has come along way from its bugy past where saving was extremely difficult requiring the user to compelte the run in one go at some points. These days if you grab the quest your progress is saved gauranteed. An arena a night for a new player that has done research on build and mechanics should easily be enough time to get it done first time.

I do not mind the player receiving a weapon of their choice first time round and agree with you. But I would like to point out a small grind is ok but 100's of runs is ridiculous and kills the arena and gives it a bad reputation. I suggest like many others a tokens system. It will keep the small grind in place to earn the tokens but remove the months-long grind by guaranteeing weapons bought with tokens. Hell, I wouldn't even care if you could buy a 2h mace lock box and receive a 2h Mace in a random trait. Just something to improve the odds.

Fair enough.
The token system does seem, better in a sense for making vMA an actual stepping stone as well. I may create a new post and consolidate this "First Run" reward with a token system, first I gotta look up some token posts though. I've appreciated all the feedback.