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PVP : Is Vigor too mandatory ?

EnOeZ
EnOeZ
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I would like to argue that for full melee stamina characters yes and sadly!
Why would you rightfully ask... Ultimate & Alliance Point Generation.

It seems that as melee stamina, it is by far the best way to generate ulti in Cyrodiil since it's you only ulti generating move in too many situations, especially:
  • Sieging Keep
  • Defending Keep
  • Zerg vs Zerg

Only work around : either engage and hope your teammates follow (dicy move) or stand in front and wait to be targeted by opponents without dying.

My proposal is the following : allow basic ultimate generation as soon as and as long as you are in combat.
Probably some tweaks but there are some incoherences in the current system. For example
  • you can shield six people in chain for 6 000 000 damage for example (just an example) and not generate any ulti.
  • On the contrary, you only need to heal 1HP to start ultimate generation. This is not coherent.

But there are more subtle incoherences :
  • you charge and immediately kill (let's say crit rush) someone that was about to kill one of your team mates, therefore saving his/her life, no ulti generation (apart from talents like combat Frenzy).
  • you heal but fail to save that same team mate, you gain ulti generation.

Same for tactical moves, deterrence moves, decoys, etc...

I then argue that the current system privileges zerging additionally by not rewarding those "smarter" PVP game plays and it would be beneficial for PVP diversity and equality to change the way ultimate generates afar from for example mandatory Vigor if you want reasonable AP and ulti in Cyrodiil.

Time for second ulti-generation evolution ?
  • Talcyndl
    Talcyndl
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    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.
    Tal'gro Bol
    PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
    http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    It's pretty mandatory, but I don't see any real problem with that. It's just a good HOT, the ultimate gen and occasional extra AP you get from healing others are just ancillary effects.

    Healing in general needs to be toned down though, especially in PvP and especially for skills that don't even use magicka. It would be a much more interesting game if dedicated healers had value, and no I don't mean heavy armor BoL-spamming healbots; I mean real healers with actual weaknesses that take actual skill to play, which is something this game lacks. I always say it but it's true: with regard to ESO game design, there is no game design. :(
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    glavius wrote: »
    Vigor may be too mandatory for pvp, pretty much all stamina builds use it (probably because there is no other real alternative)
    However that the reason was it is the only way to generate ultimate while zerging, I had not in my wildest dreams imagined.

    1: Try zerging less
    2: Equip a bow while zerging
    3: Don't expect to get ultimate for doing nothing contributing to the fight

    I think you may need to read my post twice.
    1. I never said I zerg and I pricesely hate it, I am a soloer.
    2. I stipulated melee stamina characters, what a bow user is not
    3. And didn't I showed examples where contribution could be equivalent or superior to healing but where nevertheles you are not rewarded ?

    Any relevant input instead ?
  • PandaIsAPotato
    PandaIsAPotato
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    EnOeZ wrote: »
    glavius wrote: »
    Vigor may be too mandatory for pvp, pretty much all stamina builds use it (probably because there is no other real alternative)
    However that the reason was it is the only way to generate ultimate while zerging, I had not in my wildest dreams imagined.

    1: Try zerging less
    2: Equip a bow while zerging
    3: Don't expect to get ultimate for doing nothing contributing to the fight

    I think you may need to read my post twice.
    1. I never said I zerg and I pricesely hate it, I am a soloer.
    2. I stipulated melee stamina characters, what a bow user is not
    3. And didn't I showed examples where contribution could be equivalent or superior to healing but where nevertheles you are not rewarded ?

    Any relevant input instead ?

    Grind vigor? :trollface:
    Supreme Leader Panda
    GM of Licinius Exploitation Incorporated
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    Dragon Blood has improved in fact as a heal (you need to use the good one though for magicka or tank setups).
    And precisely, for my setup I would prefer to use it instead of Vigor since it has better synergy (in my case). However AP and Ulti-wise it is a no go in full melee setup).

    Are you mag or stam btw ?
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    EnOeZ wrote: »
    glavius wrote: »
    Vigor may be too mandatory for pvp, pretty much all stamina builds use it (probably because there is no other real alternative)
    However that the reason was it is the only way to generate ultimate while zerging, I had not in my wildest dreams imagined.

    1: Try zerging less
    2: Equip a bow while zerging
    3: Don't expect to get ultimate for doing nothing contributing to the fight

    I think you may need to read my post twice.
    1. I never said I zerg and I pricesely hate it, I am a soloer.
    2. I stipulated melee stamina characters, what a bow user is not
    3. And didn't I showed examples where contribution could be equivalent or superior to healing but where nevertheles you are not rewarded ?

    Any relevant input instead ?

    Grind vigor? :trollface:

    xD

    I have Vigor already, got it when it was still really hard/long to get years ago thx :p
  • Wollust
    Wollust
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    if you have issues generating ult because you're running with the zerg..
    Damn you might be zerging on a whole new level
    Susano'o

    Zerg Squad
  • Talcyndl
    Talcyndl
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    EnOeZ wrote: »
    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    Dragon Blood has improved in fact as a heal (you need to use the good one though for magicka or tank setups).
    And precisely, for my setup I would prefer to use it instead of Vigor since it has better synergy (in my case). However AP and Ulti-wise it is a no go in full melee setup).

    Are you mag or stam btw ?

    Stam. So GDB is the one I would use, and is not nearly as useful as Vigor.
    Tal'gro Bol
    PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
    http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    As a melee player you can dodge roll or block an enemy attack to get the buff, It's pretty easy to get the buff without light attacking or healing someone.

    I don't think people should gain ultimate when they enter combat. That would mean 74% of the player base who can't pvp would start spamming ultimates as much as everyone else.

    I do agree though that you should gain ultimate & AP for placing a shield on an ally, this has always annoyed me. I also agree that the ultimate system should be more rewarding. They should implement a dynamic ulti gen system like they used to have. It's possible to implement such a system that rewards players without having players spam ultimates every 3 seconds. It just needs to be balanced.

    An example would be:
    -Every 10,000 damage, healing or shielding done, and damage received generates the player 1 ultimate point.
    -Either remove current ultimate gen buffs, or double the cost of every ultimate in the game.
    -Keep adjusting these numbers until ultimates are gained at a similar rate to what they are currently.

    This would help those that are fighting outnumbered.
    Edited by IxSTALKERxI on February 26, 2017 2:20AM
    NA | PC | Aldmeri Dominion
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  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    Wollust wrote: »
    if you have issues generating ult because you're running with the zerg..
    Damn you might be zerging on a whole new level

    My point is not about difficulties generating ult per say, but that as full melee PVP character, gaining so much more ult with vigor than any other ability or action even if that action, like saving someone with a shield is more pertinent, more effective and more successful from a PVP standpoint like for example, lauching Vigor in vain.

    My English must be really bad since it seems not everyone understands my post.

    (not native eng speaker)
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    I beg to differ, GDB was pretty fun to use while grinding for vigor. I was actually surprised at how effective it could be as an OH *** button. It was weird to the point where when I did get vigor I found myself less tanky. Insane right?
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • PandaIsAPotato
    PandaIsAPotato
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    I beg to differ, GDB was pretty fun to use while grinding for vigor. I was actually surprised at how effective it could be as an OH *** button. It was weird to the point where when I did get vigor I found myself less tanky. Insane right?

    It is insane considering you can get Vigor to tick for 3-4k a pop on a Stam DK, and Dragon's Blood is lucky to break 4k when you're in critical. :/
    Supreme Leader Panda
    GM of Licinius Exploitation Incorporated
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    I beg to differ, GDB was pretty fun to use while grinding for vigor. I was actually surprised at how effective it could be as an OH *** button. It was weird to the point where when I did get vigor I found myself less tanky. Insane right?

    It is insane considering you can get Vigor to tick for 3-4k a pop on a Stam DK, and Dragon's Blood is lucky to break 4k when you're in critical. :/

    I heal or 14k on my mag dk, depending on my hp.

    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
    deepseamk20b14_ESO
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    No. People would so easily exploit this. Hey guys, let's all tag one person, run away, tag one person, run away then everyone can bomb the keep with ults that are up in 5 seconds because we were in combat the whole time...I do not believe this is a fix what so ever nor is a fix even needed for something that isn't broken. Ultimates should feel ultimate. With the exception of IC, which honestly these days NB'so have to rely on it, most ultimates averages about the same cost. The ones that are more expensive to cast generally do more damage like EotS.

    This games TTK is already insanely short. If you can gain ultimate even faster than now, people will be doing there burst ultimate combos WAY to often and TTK will be rediculous.

    I've honestly never heard anyone in the 3 years I've played this game have an issue gaining ultimate. Except for WW. People complained about that originally because the ultimate needed to transform was really high. Stupid high.

    Light attack weave or use skills that grant ult generation.

    As far as vigor goes, I use it. It's not something that keeps me from dying without using any other heals (I need rally for the burst heal) but it's decently effective when used properly.
    Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    Ok, I think I need to do another post:

    Player A is called "A"
    Player B is called "B"
    Player C is called "C"

    PVP Scenario :
    A & B are of the same Alliance.
    C wants to kill B
    A tries to save B and is not gaining ultimate at the start of the following cases.

    Case 1:
    • A uses Vigor in range of B but B still dies to C
    • A gains Ultimate Generation for having healed B, DESPITE not saving him

    Case 2:
    • A uses a shield, obsidian shield for the example and saves B from death, C turns around....
    • A does not gain Ultimate Generation DESPITE saving B
    Case 3:
    • A uses critical rush on C, killing him and saving B
    • A does not gain Ultimate Generation DESPITE saving B

    I argue, Case 1, 2 and 3 are not consistent and that current light/heavy attack, block heal ONLY for ultimate generation greatly diminish build an gameplay diversity, diversity which is a stated objective of @ZOS game design. I argue ultimate generation would be more than welcome to evolve and Vigor is the example and wanted to put forward since it's for stamina players who have less group heal options.

    Please tell me I am clear this time !
  • Danksta
    Danksta
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    Yea, Rally is just a very underwhelming heal... :confused:
    BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA

  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    Danksta wrote: »
    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    Yea, Rally is just a very underwhelming heal... :confused:

    shhhh dont tell anyone that! we've already got enough twohandult/uppercut scrubs as it is! CRAP they heard me.

    I was never here. This response never happened.
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • PandaIsAPotato
    PandaIsAPotato
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    I beg to differ, GDB was pretty fun to use while grinding for vigor. I was actually surprised at how effective it could be as an OH *** button. It was weird to the point where when I did get vigor I found myself less tanky. Insane right?

    It is insane considering you can get Vigor to tick for 3-4k a pop on a Stam DK, and Dragon's Blood is lucky to break 4k when you're in critical. :/

    I heal or 14k on my mag dk, depending on my hp.

    Keyword there being mDK. Dragonblood is useless on stam DK. :tongue:
    Supreme Leader Panda
    GM of Licinius Exploitation Incorporated
  • Ryuho
    Ryuho
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    Implementing vigor was one of the worst things ZOS did, pure stamina builds shouldn't have a heal without equping healing item.. it killed completly hybrid builds, i remember times when ppls used 2h and resto staff for healing ward.. but well, think zos needed to take care of casuals :wink:

    idk, nothing changed since few patches, stoped playing few months ago, but when i diged today tru forum i see only same problems/issues.. last call for me = morrowind expantion, finger crossed @ZOS_GinaBruno
    The Farron family team (EU)
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  • Jamini
    Jamini
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    Ryuho wrote: »
    Implementing vigor was one of the worst things ZOS did, pure stamina builds shouldn't have a heal without equping healing item..

    If they did this, stamina would need an massive amount more single-target damage to make up for the inability to heal themselves.
    "Adapt. or Die."
  • MoeCoastie
    MoeCoastie
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    Real stamina NBS don't use vigor
  • t3hdubzy
    t3hdubzy
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    Not even sure why this is a discussion. Vigor is gained through pvp and is mostly needed for pvp. They arent going to start creating more stamina heals. One is more than enougj, sorry if it isnt diverse enough for you but it works, dont break it.

    The other heals like rally, blood craze etc should be enough for pve content when solo.

    Ultimate is already crazy easy to generate. The only one that annoys me is werewolf because its hard for me personally to stay werewolf if theres nothing around to kill. We dont need 1 v xers able to spam ultimate even more often. Nightblades can already double cast ultimates back to back.
  • t3hdubzy
    t3hdubzy
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    Ryuho wrote: »
    Implementing vigor was one of the worst things ZOS did, pure stamina builds shouldn't have a heal without equping healing item.. it killed completly hybrid builds, i remember times when ppls used 2h and resto staff for healing ward.. but well, think zos needed to take care of casuals :wink:

    idk, nothing changed since few patches, stoped playing few months ago, but when i diged today tru forum i see only same problems/issues.. last call for me = morrowind expantion, finger crossed @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Disagree
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    t3hdubzy wrote: »
    Not even sure why this is a discussion. Vigor is gained through pvp and is mostly needed for pvp. They arent going to start creating more stamina heals. One is more than enougj, sorry if it isnt diverse enough for you but it works, dont break it.

    The other heals like rally, blood craze etc should be enough for pve content when solo.

    Ultimate is already crazy easy to generate. The only one that annoys me is werewolf because its hard for me personally to stay werewolf if theres nothing around to kill. We dont need 1 v xers able to spam ultimate even more often. Nightblades can already double cast ultimates back to back.

    Ultimate is not crazy easy to generate or not depending if you are range, if you play in a group or if you are a healer.

    If you play solo and melee, you generate as an average at max half the amount of ult or AP.
    I wish @ZOS would practice Open Data but they are not.
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    Ryuho wrote: »
    Implementing vigor was one of the worst things ZOS did, pure stamina builds shouldn't have a heal without equping healing item.. it killed completly hybrid builds, i remember times when ppls used 2h and resto staff for healing ward.. but well, think zos needed to take care of casuals :wink:

    idk, nothing changed since few patches, stoped playing few months ago, but when i diged today tru forum i see only same problems/issues.. last call for me = morrowind expantion, finger crossed @ZOS_GinaBruno

    In fact I have been thinking to your answer.
    You probably have a point, because Vigor is an all-in-wonder, skill AP-wise, Ultimate Generation Wise and of course Heal-wise.
    Being too good, it pushes other survival options out of scope like mitigation and class heals or escapes.

    It breaks game diversity and that's my point and the point of this post : Too mandatory ?
  • EnOeZ
    EnOeZ
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    Talcyndl wrote: »
    Vigor is mandatory for me as a DK. But not because of Ulti generation. Rather, it is the only Stam based heal that is effective with Battle Spirit. I'd love to use GDB instead, but that simply doesn't work very well in Cyrodiil.

    I beg to differ, GDB was pretty fun to use while grinding for vigor. I was actually surprised at how effective it could be as an OH *** button. It was weird to the point where when I did get vigor I found myself less tanky. Insane right?

    It is insane considering you can get Vigor to tick for 3-4k a pop on a Stam DK, and Dragon's Blood is lucky to break 4k when you're in critical. :/

    I heal or 14k on my mag dk, depending on my hp.

    Keyword there being mDK. Dragonblood is useless on stam DK. :tongue:

    In fact, it is not that bad now... but misses AP and Ult Generation compared to Vigor.
    In my setup it allows me to escape easier execute range under heavy fire, while Vigor must be played preemptively, therefore more frequently, leaving less GCDs for offensive moves.

    But yes GDB heals for less per cast.
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