Can a Stamblade have the same solo survivability as a Magblade?

Dao_Jones

I've always enjoyed the challenge of solo play. I know there might be better/easier classes to solo with (Magsorc, Magplar), but I really wanted a sneaky-style character to play TG and DB content, so I have a Nightblade.

Putting aside the typical "all leveling content is easymode" comments, I'm asking experienced NB players if a Stamina-based NB can end up as tough and survivable as a Magicka character. I know Magblades get a lot of utility, and strong healing out of the Siphoning tree, but I'm curious if stuff like Rally, Resolving Vigor, Killer's Blade, Rend, and maybe even Bloodthirst/craze can make a Stamina build as sturdy as a Magicka build when running content.

I'm not a power gamer, so I'll accept a build that may not be "the best" for veteran content. But I am hoping for a build that gives me the freedom to go anywhere and do anything (including some group dungeons) without needing to wait for people.

If not, I guess I'll just respec my Nightblade to Magicka. (Which would be a shame, because I'm having fun leveling the Bow skills.)

Thanks!

Autolycus

No, the survivability of a stamblade relative to a magblade is not even close. To be fair, simply having Harness Magicka makes a world of difference (such is the nature of all stam builds right now, no shields). As a stamblade in most solo and open-world content, dodge roll + vigor is your best friend, and in many cases blocking will suffice as well. But on a magblade, at least more often than not, you can simply stand there and heal from your outgoing damage, maybe shield now and again for good measure. I'm generalizing a bit here as there is often more going on than just one or two things to watch for, but for the most part this is the case.

If survivability is a concern for you then magblade is the way to go. Also perma-cloak is kind of a really awesome thing to have if the sneaky playstyle is your thing. Doing sacraments and heists is a breeze on a magblade.

Strider_Roshin

Not even close.

Lynx7386

Rally, vigor, and shuffle/evasion make for a decently tough stamblade, but you won't have permacloak like Magblades do

Nutshotz

Youre kidding right.... I've seen stamblades outlast magblades in survivability. Just to prove a point

1. Infinite dodge roll
2. Shuffle
3. Vigor/rally combine those with a HoT pot. You're heals are insane [Forgot the pot name]
4. The speed. If I remember correctly. Stacked with Conceal and a speed/stealth pot. You're fast AF. Way faster than a magblade in stealth with conceal
5. Half stamblades are using medium armor. So that also stacks with speed.

I'm sure I can add a few more things on the survivability on stam vs mag blades. As of right now stam is on top. Higher burst and survivability hands down

Joosef_Kivikilpi

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

Youre kidding right.... I've seen stamblades outlast magblades in survivability. Just to prove a point

1. Infinite dodge roll
2. Shuffle
3. Vigor/rally combine those with a HoT pot. You're heals are insane [Forgot the pot name]
4. The speed. If I remember correctly. Stacked with Conceal and a speed/stealth pot. You're fast AF. Way faster than a magblade in stealth with conceal
5. Half stamblades are using medium armor. So that also stacks with speed.

I'm sure I can add a few more things on the survivability on stam vs mag blades. As of right now stam is on top. Higher burst and survivability hands down

100% Same speed. Plus, you usually don't run concealed weapon on a stamblade. That's what makes Magblades faster is the concealed weapon. You have to be a vampire if you want to be fast as a stamblade, unless using Night's Silence.

Strider_Roshin

@Dao_Jones trust me, the survivability of a stamblade is garbage in comparison to a magblade. You can cloak for days as a magblade, you can use harness or healing ward for a powerful damage shield (damage shields are far superior to dodge rolling), Sap Essence will keep your health at full as you fight groups of enemies, and soloing bosses is easy with strife, and crippling grasp.

Waffennacht

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Dao_Jones trust me, the survivability of a stamblade is garbage in comparison to a magblade. You can cloak for days as a magblade, you can use harness or healing ward for a powerful damage shield (damage shields are far superior to dodge rolling), Sap Essence will keep your health at full as you fight groups of enemies, and soloing bosses is easy with strife, and crippling grasp.

Only 1v1, when facing multiple opponents dodge roll is far superior to wards.

SickDuck

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

Youre kidding right.... I've seen stamblades outlast magblades in survivability. Just to prove a point

1. Infinite dodge roll
2. Shuffle
3. Vigor/rally combine those with a HoT pot. You're heals are insane [Forgot the pot name]
4. The speed. If I remember correctly. Stacked with Conceal and a speed/stealth pot. You're fast AF. Way faster than a magblade in stealth with conceal
5. Half stamblades are using medium armor. So that also stacks with speed.

I'm sure I can add a few more things on the survivability on stam vs mag blades. As of right now stam is on top. Higher burst and survivability hands down

Not sure what part of the game you're playing...

1. Dodge rolls rarely kill anything. You may do a lot of them with a stamblade but it costs you in dps therefore lowering survivability cause if longer fights. Magblade usually don't need to roll but if does it can and get stamina back fast with siphoning.
2. Shuffle can be used by both though magblades don't need it cause of better options.
3. Hope you're not suggesting stamina has better healing options than magicka?
4. Speed as mentioned is pretty much the same. Not really a factor in pve.
5. Light armor gives better resistance against magic damage. Magblade uses 5+1+1 setup that gives a lot of extra defense through passives. Stamblades do 7 medium or gimp dps with 5+1+1.
+1 forgot to mention cloak, although I only use it in pvp & completely ignored the lack of shields for stam

Autolycus

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

Youre kidding right.... I've seen stamblades outlast magblades in survivability. Just to prove a point

1. Infinite dodge roll
2. Shuffle
3. Vigor/rally combine those with a HoT pot. You're heals are insane [Forgot the pot name]
4. The speed. If I remember correctly. Stacked with Conceal and a speed/stealth pot. You're fast AF. Way faster than a magblade in stealth with conceal
5. Half stamblades are using medium armor. So that also stacks with speed.

I'm sure I can add a few more things on the survivability on stam vs mag blades. As of right now stam is on top. Higher burst and survivability hands down

You clearly have far more experience in pvp than pve. Have you ever tried soloing world bosses (since 1T) or vMA on both a magblade vs. stamblade? Given your response I don't think you have. Have you ever tried both magblade and stamblade in vet trials? There is a monumental difference. It's so vast it's practically irrefutable. I mean... look at the plethora of threads about how stam is pointless in endgame content right now... why do you think that is?

Also, stamblades are not faster than magblades. If a magblade is deliberately trying to outrun a stamblade, they will win. Most magblades do not use concealed weapon and can still outrun a stamblade, and the second you start throwing things like vampirism into the mix, it becomes true for both builds. This isn't a realistic point upon which to compare the two.

The #1 reason magblades are more survivable than stam builds in pve is because they have access to shields, which btw would have been an amazing thing for stam builds in pve, but was once again ruined by pvp whining (refer to the intended bone shield change that got scrapped immediately due to the outcries). It might be worth noting here that these shields are accessible to all magicka classes, and all stamina classes face these struggles (except stam sorc, who has the same problems but they don't hurt as much b/c of Major Ward/Resolve).

Furthermore, magicka builds will make use of 1 heavy and 1 light armor, while stam builds will go all medium (if they're doing it right). This means that magicka builds will have higher health standards than stam builds as well, and larger secondary resource pools (in this case stamina) with which to break free and dodge when absolutely necessary. Stam builds do not get the extra magicka from Undaunted Mettle with which to use cloak, so they are forced to use their valuable stam pool to be defensive as well. They will also have higher physical and spell resistance due to their armor type, but if you know anything about resistances and the way damage is calculated, you understand that this is a minor point in favor of stam builds. It doesn't come anywhere near making up the gap from shields alone.

Now throw in the ability to dps and heal simultaneously, access to resto staff abilities, permanent cloak potential, the best aoe/dps/heal all-in-one in the game, healing ultimates, and the fact that magblade CP boosts their healing and damage while stam CP boosts mostly just damage... it's not even close. The reason you see stamblades outlast magblades in pvp is because magblades in pvp are far more difficult to play, period. Dodge rolling and relying on procs is easy. Watching your opponent and timing their attacks so as to turn their offense into their own demise is a substantially more difficult.

Berenhir

Waffennacht wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Dao_Jones trust me, the survivability of a stamblade is garbage in comparison to a magblade. You can cloak for days as a magblade, you can use harness or healing ward for a powerful damage shield (damage shields are far superior to dodge rolling), Sap Essence will keep your health at full as you fight groups of enemies, and soloing bosses is easy with strife, and crippling grasp.

Only 1v1, when facing multiple opponents dodge roll is far superior to wards.

Not entirely true. The longer you take much damage, the more ineffective dodge becomes as the cost penalty rises with every dodge roll. That's why dodge is superior when getting bursted but shields (especially harness against PvE magicka damage) are way better during long fights. Especially with 3-6 layered HoTs. Harness is basically free/additional recovery then.

Moglijuana

1450 Mag Recovery & 2550 Stam Recovery (unbuffed) on a stamblade let's you live forever...as long as you don't get caught

Dao_Jones

Well then. Sounds like Magicka is the way to go. (I'm not the most nimble of players, so if heavy dodge-rolling is key to Stamina survival, I should definitely go magicka!)

Thank you to everyone who answered so quickly! Two quick follow-up questions:

1. How does one get "permanent invisibility"? (Or even extremely extended cloaking?)

2. Does a Magicka NB have any use for Stamina? I rolled a Bosmer because I wanted the Stealth passive, and I don't like the look of Khajiit. (Also, bows are fun again.) But that's obviously a race that does nothing for Magicka damage, so I'm hoping that going Bosmer isn't completely pointless. (Again, I'm fine with not being "the best"; but I don't want to be "Bad Life Decisions Character".)

Strider_Roshin

Waffennacht wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Dao_Jones trust me, the survivability of a stamblade is garbage in comparison to a magblade. You can cloak for days as a magblade, you can use harness or healing ward for a powerful damage shield (damage shields are far superior to dodge rolling), Sap Essence will keep your health at full as you fight groups of enemies, and soloing bosses is easy with strife, and crippling grasp.

Only 1v1, when facing multiple opponents dodge roll is far superior to wards.

Depends on what your opponents are using. If it's one of the MANY un-dodgeable attacks in this game, then no; damage shields are still superior. And if you're fighting a bunch of people using single target dodgeable attacks, then cloak is even better than both dodging, and shielding; which the magblade can do way more than stamblades can.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

If Wood Elves are your race, you can make it work. Just allows you to dodge roll more often than other counterparts, or break free.

SickDuck

Bosmer while not the most optimal choice is fine.

Stamina is extremely useful for anyone. Magicka players can use is tactically since it's not their primary resource. That sad being bosmer may give you some advantage but nothing special since with NB you probably gain back the most stamina with siphoning attacks.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

SickDuck wrote: »

Bosmer while not the most optimal choice is fine.

Stamina is extremely useful for anyone. Magicka players can use is tactically since it's not their primary resource. That sad being bosmer may give you some advantage but nothing special since with NB you probably gain back the most stamina with siphoning attacks.

Exactly.

Bazeric

I'd just like to say that stamina has shields available. Yes you sacrifice something to gain survivablity, but that is similar to magicka shields.

Stam-
Brawler/Bone shield.
One requires 2H, one some undaunted achievements.

Mag-
Annument/Steadfast Ward
One is a pure armor skill the other requires Healing staff

I get that stam isn't great for end game, but the same sacrifices are made for both stam/mag playstyles to add survivablity.
I had a hodgepodge Stamblade build that could handle 85-90% of the overland World Bosses and yes I used Brawler to help with that, along with Blood Craze. I couldn't clear anymore WB with my magblade than I could my stamblade (my stamblade had slightly better DPS too even though the gear wasn't as optimal as my magblade... it was upsetting). So at least in this case it just takes some creativity. Layering more damage and heals, instead of pure DPS SA spam.

If you plan both builds you'll likely be able to achieve similar results, just takes time, practice and some "Creativity"

Autolycus

Bazeric wrote: »

I'd just like to say that stamina has shields available. Yes you sacrifice something to gain survivablity, but that is similar to magicka shields.

Stam-
Brawler/Bone shield.
One requires 2H, one some undaunted achievements.

Mag-
Annument/Steadfast Ward
One is a pure armor skill the other requires Healing staff

I get that stam isn't great for end game, but the same sacrifices are made for both stam/mag playstyles to add survivablity.
I had a hodgepodge Stamblade build that could handle 85-90% of the overland World Bosses and yes I used Brawler to help with that, along with Blood Craze. I couldn't clear anymore WB with my magblade than I could my stamblade (my stamblade had slightly better DPS too even though the gear wasn't as optimal as my magblade... it was upsetting). So at least in this case it just takes some creativity. Layering more damage and heals, instead of pure DPS SA spam.

If you plan both builds you'll likely be able to achieve similar results, just takes time, practice and some "Creativity"

There's definitely some truth to what you've stated here, and I don't want to invalidate it with my comments, so I'd just say that for overland content, these things can work just fine.

A couple of things to note regarding these skills, however:
- Bone Shield: Doesn't scale with stamina, so the shield is weak relative to Annulment, inefficient use of stamina as well when Harness Magicka (annulment) helps to pay for itself by returning magicka.
- Brawler: A fantastic skill for overland content (especially for large delves like in Craglorn), but dictates our weapon choice without offering anywhere near the amount of damage as DW and Bow. Stam builds cannot afford to give up either bow or DW for this in trials or their dps will suffer greatly. DoT component is very weak, and spamming for shields results in inefficient uptime on the DoT as well.

In either of these cases, a stam build giving up a spot on their bar for one of these skills would be very ineffective and inefficient from a cost/benefit perspective. In other words, the shield is far too small, and the requirements in order to use it are very costly (resource cost, damage of skills being replaced, taking time away from rotation, etc). While there is obviously also an opportunity cost associated with using Annulment, the only area that stam builds excel in right now is their pure single-target damage potential. Giving up damage (especially if we have to trade out weapons for it) makes stam builds even less attractive, since the damage gap is reduced even further for nowhere near the same effect.

Both of these skills have value for certain circumstances, but the underlying theme here is that they don't cater to those who need them the most, which is stam builds in vet trials.

olsborg

Its funny, people still using the age ol' saying of "infinite dodge" wtf, where have you been the last year, dodge got some pretty hefty fatigue attached to it, do it more then 3 times in a row and youre basicly f. Whilst you can shieldstack and spam them and stack them to your hearts content. You can dodge a few times without f your stamina, and you cant stack your vigor and your rally basicly only burst heal you every 15-20 seconds.

DocFrost72

Imho, yes. You sacrifice a lot to get there, but absolutely. Rally+vigor, brawler+surprise attack all synergies well. The above can really take a beating (soloing vet dungeons beating).

Joy_Division

For 99% of the content a stamblade has more than enough surviability, especially if you're not a "power gamer" as you claim.

Especially in PvP. As long as you aren't running hardmode vet Maw with the Hodor guild, you NB can survive just fine.

Izaki

This thread was doing fine, until someone came in and started talking about PvP.
IIRC the OP wanted to know if doing solo/questing content was possible on a stamblade without dying all over the place.

Strider_Roshin

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

This thread was doing fine, until someone came in and started talking about PvP.
IIRC the OP wanted to know if doing solo/questing content was possible on a stamblade without dying all over the place.

Yeah a lot of people who are known anti-stamblades are coming on here in order to spew their typical "Stamblades are gods!" rhetoric. Here's the thing OP, stamblades have crap survivability. Is it possible to survive just fine as a stamblade? Yes. I got Flawless Conqueror with mine. But having played all the classes both magicka, and stamina; the stamblade probably has the worst survivability in the game.

The Strife + Crippling grasp combo will allow you to easily fight any single target you'll encounter; Sap Essence will make fighting mobs a piece of cake, and if you ever get hit hard, and need to recover you can either use cloak or healing ward.

thankyourat

For PvE it's not even close magblade survivability is alot higher, but stamblade is fine. in PvE you would still be able to do most content including VMA. I play both magblade and stamblade. If you ever want to PvP though you are going to have a rough time playing magblade unless you want to be a bomber. So in PvP it's the complete opposite both magblade and stamblade survivability is low, but I find stamblade to be more survivable in PvP because of the mobility which leads to being able to use los better. If cloak ever works in PvP again both nightblades should get a increase in survivability

NeillMcAttack

I just want to quickly mention a skill that hasn't come up yet!

Reapers Mark is amazing. You will heal 60% of your health on killing a "marked" target and it will also grant the most powerful buff in the game 'Major Berserk' increasing all damage done by 25% for 5 seconds. You can absolutely steam roll anything with adds, and it's not so bad on single target as it applies major fracture. This means you don't need surprise attack and can bloodthirst for an even better heal along with bloodcraze.

I would say if it's over land stuff you are interested in OP, you can't go wrong with either choice.

Stannum

Ok, look.
Take NB put on 5-1-1 base heavy (enchant with prismatic) and 1h&b\1h&b (buff block with sturdy, some CP and or ring enchant(s), buff redused mana cost). Make magika regen 2000+ (it's not difficult with atro mundus and orgoza drink). Keep siphoning atacks up, permablock and spam sap or swallow soul (on situation), use healing or resource proc sets (if you wish you can also keep mirage buff on). Try to die with all this. If you managed to do it, try to use shadow cloak and or hysteria next time.
Really you think dodge roll is stronge?

Huggelz

the amount of idiots in this thread giving advice on things they know nothing about is off the charts.

DRXHarbinger

Stamblade on xbox has just over 599k in vma. Says it all if you can cut through it in 30 mins.

SickDuck

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Stamblade on xbox has just over 599k in vma. Says it all if you can cut through it in 30 mins.

Are you implying that vMA is easier to survive and complete with stamblade than magblade?

NeillMcAttack

SickDuck wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Stamblade on xbox has just over 599k in vma. Says it all if you can cut through it in 30 mins.

Are you implying that vMA is easier to survive and complete with stamblade than magblade?

I believe he is implying that it can be beaten 'faster' on a well played stamblade.