Attn ZOS: We'd like to know the rules for PvP

Neoakropolis

Don't expect anything to come of this.. Remember the team we are dealing with, look who they invited to "play test" our "best theorycrafters" and don't forget that they all thought Blinxy was just a good player.. Buhaha..

Etaniel

Astanphaeus wrote: »

ZOS has explicitly stated previously that using flying gap closers is a bannable exploit.

That would have been a good move if they had worked on making sure to fix it.
It should have been a bannable exploit, and then it shouldn't have been a possible exploit anymore.

Crown

Etaniel wrote: »

It hurts people running for emperor legitimately.

I agree, which is why I made the point at the start about that. The only way to harm other players is to take away emperor from someone else.

Etaniel wrote: »

It hurts the economy : Ap is almost an equivalent of gold when you can buy loot boxes, people also sell Motifs with that AP.

I disagree. Considering the impact of a few hundred thousand AP that would probably be made at about 1/3 the rate outside of BB Mine, the impact on the economy approaches zero. If we looked at the compounded tick bug that hasn't been fixed yet, then yes, with about a million AP that can be made every 25 minutes, that could impact the economy - but at these amount it's nothing.

Etaniel

Crown wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

It hurts people running for emperor legitimately.

I agree, which is why I made the point at the start about that. The only way to harm other players is to take away emperor from someone else.

Etaniel wrote: »

It hurts the economy : Ap is almost an equivalent of gold when you can buy loot boxes, people also sell Motifs with that AP.

I disagree. Considering the impact of a few hundred thousand AP that would probably be made at about 1/3 the rate outside of BB Mine, the impact on the economy approaches zero. If we looked at the compounded tick bug that hasn't been fixed yet, then yes, with about a million AP that can be made every 25 minutes, that could impact the economy - but at these amount it's nothing.

50 people farming BB mine for 10 hours = 100 million AP, seeing as this has been going on for a couple days, and by more than 50 people, I'd say the impact is quite humonguous actually. Ofc, it's not when you compare it to the global game economy, but I'd like to remind you that the PvP population in this game is ridiculously small in proportion to the PvE/RP crowd. So the impact on the PvP generated economy is in fact huge.

Magus

I'm not ZOS but I'm bored at work, so I'll reply

Regarding Gap Closers:
This shouldn't be bannable or punishable in any way, can't punish players for poor code - fix it if you don't like it.

Regarding using third party programs to affect the game:
Yep, banned for life. Monitored when you buy your next account. Community will happily tell ZOS who these people are when they come back on their 3rd, 4th, 5th accounts.

Regarding feeding kills for AP:
Not bannable, "clever use of game mechanics," but scummy thing to do.

Regarding trading keeps and/or outposts and/or resources for AP:
Not bannable, "clever use of game mechanics," but scummy thing to do. And really if you're not going for first time emp or something, then you have some issues if this is how you choose to spend your play time. ZOS can make game changes that would minimize this AP gain if they really wanted to.

Regarding the above point of trading a resource as it applies to BlackBoot Mine:
Punishable but not permabans. They knew it was giving more than it should and chose that specific resource for that specific reason. 3 day game vacations for the guilty, and take away the AP they earned even if it makes them go negative. Then can keep titles/achievements/whatever.

Regarding bugs and taking advantage of them:
If you find it, report it, stay away from it. Is that so hard? If you continue to use game exploits to give yourself a competitive advantage, why? Are you overcompensating for your crappy real life? Oh, the salt, it's so funny, the hate whispers. I personally believe ZOS should have heuristic monitoring that flags anomalies in the system like if you perform an action, swap gear instantly into another action in an automated fashion, that is not a regular user behavior and should be flagged. Or maybe a check to see if player has the effect of hist bark, TBS without the gear equipped? The flagged users should be monitored and if caught exploiting should be warned and then banned if it happens again. No excuses. Better yet, hire them as your QA testers because what you are doing is clearly not working, ZOS.

Crown

Etaniel wrote: »

50 people farming BB mine for 10 hours = 100 million AP, seeing as this has been going on for a couple days, and by more than 50 people, I'd say the impact is quite humonguous actually. Ofc, it's not when you compare it to the global game economy, but I'd like to remind you that the PvP population in this game is ridiculously small in proportion to the PvE/RP crowd. So the impact on the PvP generated economy is in fact huge.

From that perspective, it is a lot of AP total, though how much of it from PvPers is just going to go back into siege and camps? With the RNG on boxes, getting a single piece that is.. viable.. is just as painful as farming overland (did you try to get spinner / sprigan sharpened weapons)? You're right that there is an impact, perhaps slightly larger than I originally thought, though considering the cost of camps, and the difficulty / challenge / crap RNG, I still believe that the impact is minuscule.

No_True_Scotsman

Drawing parallel between common law and a video game's rules is in actuality a false analogy ... plainly fallacious. Our access to the Elder Scrolls Online is, in fact, a service. The provider of that service may terminate that service at any time and for any reason, since access to anyone's labor is not a right. If the terms of service plainly state X activity will sever your access, then fine. If it does not ... well it does not, and arguing about it is silly. With that said, termination of access to ZoS services can happen for any reason. Treating this like legal discourse is silly.

We can debate the ethics of what was done all day. That argument is going to be irreducibly subjective, however.

Anazasi

Astanphaeus wrote: »

ZOS has explicitly stated previously that using flying gap closers is a bannable exploit.

So if I use a gap close to get to a person on a rock while I'm standing on another rock its wrong? No this was situational players leaping inside gates or keeps or players using gap closers to enter a keep. The reason this was such an issue was the players who stood on the walls and allowed their buddies to get in. The actions of a few ruined the mechanic for the entire population.

Anazasi

No_True_Scotsman wrote: »

Drawing parallel between common law and a video game's rules is in actuality a false analogy ... plainly fallacious. Our access to the Elder Scrolls Online is, in fact, a service. The provider of that service may terminate that service at any time and for any reason, since access to anyone's labor is not a right. If the terms of service plainly state X activity will sever your access, then fine. If it does not ... well it does not, and arguing about it is silly. With that said, termination of access to ZoS services can happen for any reason. Treating this like legal discourse is silly.

We can debate the ethics of what was done all day. That argument is going to be irreducibly subjective, however.

I like this guy!!

Minno

Crown wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

It hurts people running for emperor legitimately.

I agree, which is why I made the point at the start about that. The only way to harm other players is to take away emperor from someone else.

Etaniel wrote: »

It hurts the economy : Ap is almost an equivalent of gold when you can buy loot boxes, people also sell Motifs with that AP.

I disagree. Considering the impact of a few hundred thousand AP that would probably be made at about 1/3 the rate outside of BB Mine, the impact on the economy approaches zero. If we looked at the compounded tick bug that hasn't been fixed yet, then yes, with about a million AP that can be made every 25 minutes, that could impact the economy - but at these amount it's nothing.

Especially if you can't sell those items at all. Time Spent both farming AP and waiting to sell gear that isn't BIS for PvE players means the AP is paper money.

ManDraKE

You won't get any "rules" from them, for a simple reason: they don't have the means and the willing to enforce them.

- AP feeding/exploiting exists cause the current Cyrodrill mechanics allow it, as long as Cyrodrill allows you to do such things, it will keep happening. Using user reports and manually checking everyday for this is not viable, and that's why they are not doing it.

- The cheat engine thing is only the tip of the iceberg, is a tool created to cheat in SINGLE PLAYER games lol. It would literally require very little effort to me or anyone with coding knowledge to cheat on this game. I choose not to do it because it will take the fun away for me (and because i don't want to go home and start coding after being doing that for 8hs at work lol). The "soft hand" on bans doesn't help at all, for god sake German got unbanned just by doing a phone call to ZoS and telling them "ey can i get unban? i promise i won't do it again". As long as people know that they can get away with it, they will keep doing it.

Battlegrounds will make the cheating problem WAY worse. A more competitive environment will push a lot of players into cheating, is a common reaction when a player gets frustrated after losing. ZoS needs to step up, if they don't have the time or the knowledge to implement a proper anticheat, there are plenty of companies providing anticheat solutions that you can integrate into your games. They are not perfect, but that (along with a proper policy to handle cheaters), will help a lot.

Jitterbug

Crown wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

What gear switching mechanic?

You obviously didn't read the full post and just jumped on the one point that you wanted to make.

To be fair it was rearly long. Even though you used the "short short version" a couple times

Arthg

ManDraKE wrote: »

You won't get any "rules" from them, for a simple reason: they don't have the means and the willing to enforce them.

Well I'd be ready to buy crown crates if they had a chance to contain a Game Master .

Boozdog

Can we just permaban those players and be done with it? Why is there so much thinking involved here

Crown

For a friend who is at work:

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind many of you how you and your friends all used nirnhoned knowing that it was behaving outside of what the devs intended, how you used dual maces knowing it was bugged, crafted TBS sets to give you multiple mundus, crafted Hist sets to give yourselves perma-dodge chance, stacked Shuffle to get your dodge chance up to 90%, chained or gap closed into outposts by targeting guards, abused the camo hunter bug to 1-shot people, abused the viper bug to get up to 4 simultaneous procs to 1-shot people, and I'm sure I'm forgetting many more common ones that we've seen over the years. Kilandros and some of the rest, you don't have a leg to stand on complaining about people who did something that doesn't affect other players' enjoyment of the game and even then for only about one day instead of for months. I disagree in principle with flipping a flag, but it is very important to note that it is FAAAAAAAR more benign compared to bugs, exploits, and unintended game mechanics that affect combat.

I just wanted someone to put the hypocrisy in check because no one had done it yet. CE is a high horse we can all get on, but getting on a high horse over extra ap given all of those historical exploits doesn't help. The argument should focus on zos' position and response. That BS is just derailing the thread.

Iyas

Wha

Boozdog wrote: »

Can we just permaban those players and be done with it? Why is there so much thinking involved here

Because so many ppl now rushing in the forums to defend their "friends" who did that

Chori

I don't care if you guys compared the recent issue to previous issues and how they handled them. Point is that people were exploiting a bug with the BB Mine and they knew about it, period.

I don't care how much people tries to disguise it, the fact that the attitude of several people was to stay there instead of think to themselves what could be the outcome after people figure it out is pretty funny.

Like Kilandros said earlier, I don't want people permabanned but it's time sanctions get to be applied and whoever abused that reap what they sewed.

Crispen_Longbow

kevlarto_ESO

asneakybanana wrote: »

Gap closers into a keep is an exploit able bug

CE is an exploit that should have had more severe consequences

Feeding AP to gain a leaderboard advantage is extremely hard to classify due to the fact it's not using any bugged mechanics.

Same thing for keep and resource trading

BB mine is an exploit able bug

Using any major bug should be considered exploiting and Zos should hand out suspensions for first time offenders and bans for repeat offenders or just flat out ban them if the offense is bad enough. If you used double mundus or hist bark bugs last patch it should be a suspension. If you sit there and farm over and over 6k ticks when it is supposed to be giving 1.5k ticks it should be a suspension. If you did the rakkhat skip to last boss cheese it should be a suspension. If you use CE you should be permanently IP/hardware banned.

These suspensions shouldn't be 3 day suspensions, those should be saved up for chat offenses and trolling and whatever, these should be a week minimum for something small like double mundus or gap closers but month for more serious things. ZoS has gone way too easy on people for waaaaay too long that no one even fears consequences of cheating. That needs to change.

This^^ sums it up pretty good, any exploit or bug you use for personal gain in the game can get you suspended or banned depending on the seriousness of the infraction Cheat Engine a third party program should be perma ban no chance for an appeal, to me that is pretty serious stuff, but zos has got to do something, because for me I am left with at least the perception they are not doing anything and the reputation out in the world reflects that.

I was at a gamed stop the other day there were three people talking about ESO, two of three were talking about don't waste your time in ESO it is nothing but a bunch of cheaters, I spoke up told them a few good things about the game but had to admit cheating and exploiting is pretty bad and goes unchecked for the most part or it seems that way.

Crown

Chori wrote: »

it's time sanctions get to be applied and whoever abused that reap what they sewed.

If we're going to suggest sanctions, can we also get sanctions applied to players who are still using a plethora of other bugs that directly affect combat too? How about the empower bug that lets players get 20 times damage instead of 20% more damage, or the BloodSpawn bug that lets players ignore the cooldown on the ult regen proc, or the multiple-chant bug that lets players get up to 3 enchants per piece of gear, or many of the others out there... Its' easy to pick on one particular topic, but without a formal structure for what is allowed and what is not, as well as clearly defined penalties, all you're doing is derailing the topic.

Chuga_Rei

The more excuses I hear, the less im willing to be rational in this. Crown had good intentions with his first post, but from everyone I have talked to people are losing patience with the people justifying it.

You guys are whipping up a proverbial lynch mob. Every excuse is seen as thumbing your nose at upstanding players and ZOS. soon people are going to be calling for a "day of the ban"


I wouldnt continue to push this envelope if i were you.

Chuga_Rei

To add to what I just said.


Anyone abusing the game to get an unfair advantage in a obvious way unintended by the developers should be absolutely punished.

Rohamad_Ali

Ms @ZOS_JessicaFolsom added this thread last year .

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278031/cyrodiil-cheating-exploiting-you/p1


With this rule that leaves everything interpretational . "In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all."

Crown

@Chuga_Rei What people don't seem to understand is that EVERYONE agrees that making AP by trading flags is a dumb way to do so, it's boring, and it goes against the spirit of what we all know is intended for PvP. What *I* and a few others are trying to debate (and this thread was derailed to such) is whether any punishment is due for the people that made AP that way.

Considering:
1. There are a LOT of people that made AP that way regardless of intent
2. Most of the people had fun doing so
3. It is not explicitly or subjectively against the ToS
4. It didn't harm anyone
5. There are a LOT worse things that do cause harm that have been done that had no punishment
6. There are a LOT worse things that people are still doing that have no apparent punishment
7. The issue was fixed a day and a half after it was identified publicly so the overall impact is low

There is no reason for any "punishment" for making AP this way. For a punishment to be warranted, ZOS would have to officially state that doing so is against the ToS, or pull their "we can do what we want without explaining or have any reasonable justification" card - which would make them look very bad.

Before arguing points further, it would be nice if people re-read my original post and responded constructively on how we can help ZOS establish... something... that can serve to provide a framework for future such issues.

Iyas

Crown wrote: »

...


4. It didn't harm anyone


...

Thats simply a lie. It harmed many. I dropped several places out of the leaderboard. Ppl flooded the market with akaviri motifs/ open world items.

Stop spreading lies to defend your exploit friends.

Rohamad_Ali

In the past we have asked ZoS to make a judgement call on rules . Last year it was gap closers and many players got a ban for gap closing after . This lead to a lot of controversy and argument as people started to point out bigger exploits still happening with no repercussions . Rules never got set and later another big player ban wave started with the use of the salvation set exploit . Manly in PVE to hit leader boards . The set was later fixed however , several other sets remained broken and people knowingly used them regardless , yet no punishment for those players . So the point of my post here is ...


Inconsistency

Zos . Can we please get some consistency ?

Well written rules would be nice too , especially on AP farming .

Satiar

I remember some of the ardent anti-exploit people in this thread abusing or knowingly running in groups that abused the bugged emp siege damage (to give just one example).

I don't intend to use this bug, but those going hard at it should remember their own histories.

Chori

Crown wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

it's time sanctions get to be applied and whoever abused that reap what they sewed.

If we're going to suggest sanctions, can we also get sanctions applied to players who are still using a plethora of other bugs that directly affect combat too? How about the empower bug that lets players get 20 times damage instead of 20% more damage, or the BloodSpawn bug that lets players ignore the cooldown on the ult regen proc, or the multiple-chant bug that lets players get up to 3 enchants per piece of gear, or many of the others out there... Its' easy to pick on one particular topic, but without a formal structure for what is allowed and what is not, as well as clearly defined penalties, all you're doing is derailing the topic.

If someone exploits a bug in the game they should be sanctioned, period. That's how it should be, not this condoning attitude of ohhh but they did this and that so I should be able to do the same or do something similar in other cases.
I am talking about our most recent issue, because this is something that needs to be dealt with now aside of whatever hotfix they already released.
I am not derailing the topic, you are derailing your own responsibility on the matter by trying to put on a comparison line to other issues, which again they should be treated equally and sometimes even worse. If you exploited or abused a bug be a man and own to it. If your friends did it too, then don't condone it and be the better player. You ask ZOS what are their PvP rules but you mention on the thread you are biased because you know your friends exploited/abused a bug in game to obtain an advantage over other players...like..***?

Your whole thread is like the media propaganda trying to put people's sight away from the current issue by blaming or naming older issues. You must work on CNN or RT or something, fact is clever ppl don't buy what you spill

Crown

@Chori You obviously did not read the full thread through, or any of my other recent posts. Just one more person who only reads or understands 10% of what is out there, jumps to conclusions and sees what they want. Come back when you can make an intelligent argument or have something constructive to say about the thread.

To address your comments:

Chori wrote: »

If someone exploits a bug in the game they should be sanctioned, period.

Nobody disagrees with you there. The question in this particular case is applying the definition of exploit and to what severity it should apply - if at all. Go and read the thread again. Someone already responded about that.

Chori wrote: »

That's how it should be, not this condoning attitude of ohhh but they did this and that so I should be able to do the same or do something similar in other cases.

You're making an assumption. Read my response on that point a few posts up.

Chori wrote: »

I am talking about our most recent issue, because this is something that needs to be dealt with now aside of whatever hotfix they already released.

Based on what standard? How can you define a punishment for playing in this way, as compared to all the other things? My point on this matter is that a set of standards needs to be identified to put all the different types of issues in perspective.

Chori wrote: »

I am not derailing the topic, you are derailing your own responsibility on the matter by trying to put on a comparison line to other issues, which again they should be treated equally and sometimes even worse.

So from that perspective, using TriggerX to set all your regen to 20% higher, keep major and minor ulti regen active all the time, give you unlimited roll dodge, and the ability to walk through walls should have the same punishment as walking to a resource, taking a flag, stepping aside, waiting 45 seconds, and taking the flag again. You're definitely showing your lack of common sense here.

Chori wrote: »

If you exploited or abused a bug be a man and own to it.

Apparently you didn't notice that I was the one who posted publicly about this at the start.

Chori wrote: »

If your friends did it too, then don't condone it and be the better player.

I personally don't feel that they did anything wrong, and rather than let the trolls and hotheads blather on about perma-bans, I've decided to debate intelligently for one side of the argument. You've apparently not ever taken a debate class.. You might want to try joining a debate club - it's a lot of fun!

Chori wrote: »

You ask ZOS what are their PvP rules but you mention on the thread you are biased because you know your friends exploited/abused a bug in game to obtain an advantage over other players...like..***?

I've clearly stated my opinion. I ask that ZOS take a position either supporting or against my opinion. Every opinion is biased. You might want to think before spouting off more nonsense.

Chori wrote: »

Your whole thread is like the media propaganda trying to put people's sight away from the current issue by blaming or naming older issues.

One more piece of evidence supporting the fact that you didn't read the thread, and just jumped on a bandwagon.

Chori wrote: »

Your whole thread is like the media propaganda trying to put people's sight away from the current issue by blaming or naming older issues. You must work on CNN or RT or something

Once again - try reading the original post in its entirety. Then think a bit. Then maybe you might understand that your response made you look rather foolish.

Chori wrote: »

fact is clever ppl don't buy what you spill

Clever people are capable of thinking before they talk or write, tend to look up or research facts before formulating their opinions, and don't make generalised assumptions based on faulty information.

Minno

Just ban us all so we can play For Honor open beta lol