Current state of balance

JinMori

What are your thought on the current state of balance?

Mine are these:

Radiant nerf does not solve anything, it's still op in pvp, people will still spam it from 100%, but in pve this is a very big nerf to magplar dps, i suggest reducing the range of this ability instead of the damage.

The change to trap beast was completely unnecessary, stamina is already underperforming compared to magicka, this change further increases the gap, and minor force was not op, and didn't need a nerf.

Major force was changed so now it gives 15 % more critical damage, but additive, the previous major force gave 30 % but multiplicative, they said that this is not a nerf, which is true... partially, they forgot to tell you thet it's not a nerf unless you are running any type of crit modifier, which basically everyone does, the base crit damage is 50 % more then non crit, guess what 50*0.3= 15%
if zenimax wanted to buff the beginners and nerf the top, they they completely missed the target, because this is a nerf to literally everyone, this really pisses me off, because it invalidated the work of many players, while not giving anything to the casuals, this change is just stupid.

Spear shards, zenimax why did you remove the stun from this ability? If your intention was to make it simpler, then you missed the target, this just makes it worse, and it's not like this ability was op.

The buffs to Magicka nb are good, since it was lacking, grim focus is still a *** ability, and it's clunky as hell.

What you did with mag dk was clever, reducing standard of might damage bonus from 20 to 15 % while increasing whip damage by 5% increases the damage in pvp while maintaining the same in pve, but you forgot stam dk, stam dk also use standard, so this is a nerf without anything to balance it out for them, i would suggest making flames of oblivion deal either flame or poison damage depending on your best stat, just like burning light, or slightly increase the dot damage.

Elemental drain is a dead ability, minor magickasteal is much worse then the previous buff, please revert this.

Siphon spirit, same as above, probably even worse, this ability used to give back some magicka, not it gives minor magicksteal, and minor lifesteal which is a worthless buff, 600 health per second isn't gonna save you. and guess what, now templar has radiant aura, which gives minor magickasteal to everyone in your group, so yea, ele drain and siphon are completely dead, further decreasing build variety.

Stamina was already behind magicka in basically everything, single target damage: worse, aoe: worse, survivability: worse, utility: worse, and light armor is much better than medium armor, which means this game should be renamed to staves and scrolls online, because stamina is dead, and you didn't do anything to fix this.

Medium armor is worse then light armor for these reasons:
While it gives more resistance, it's not enough to save you, gankers will still one shot you, and if the boss gets to you, you are in trouble, magicka has enormous shields and more self healing, stamina has more blocking and dodgeroll.

Agility is not as good as concentration, concentration gives almost 10 % more damage, while agility is greatly reliant on you weapon damage to increase dps, and it's not nearly as good as concentration, about half as much, and it doesn't scale as well.

Dexterity is not as good as prodigy, while it's true that it gives more crit then prodigy, you also have to take in account that it's only if you are running 7 pieces of medium armor, and the difference is not very big, about 2 % more crit, this does not go well with the undaunted passive.

And improved sneak is good basically only for pvp, give this ability to another skillline, and bring something that is actually useful please.

For more information about light and medium armor i suggest looking at gilliamtherogue videos.

The proc sets change was a good change for pvp and not too damaging for pve, the only things that comes to my mind is that they could maybe make proc sets crit in pve and not crit in pvp.

The nerf to hurricane i feel like misses the point, the reason why this ability is so strong in pvp, it's because it procs implosion, the ability itself deals quite good damage, but it's the synergy with implosion that makes it so strong.

And this is it, overall i'm not very satisfied with the changes.

Almost forgot, desto ulti nerf is absolute trash, the problem isn't the damage, it's the range and the fact that you can't block it.

Overall this really makes me think that zenimax doesn't test and doesn't listen to feedback.


Edit made because i accidentally clicked post discussion without first finishing it.

akl77

It's obviously they hate Templars.
They hate stamina players.
They adore magicka sorcerer.

TequilaFire

I will trade range for more damage of RD any day.
But you will still complain.
Mage's Wrath is just as annoying.

JinMori

The answer is not always nerfing the damage zenimax, there are more creative ways to do a nerf.

Kneighbors

Actually the new morph to restoring aura is really cool. Finally we will see healers using it instead of repentance.

mewcatus

Any buffs should only be additive, not multiplicative in the first place. This is to prevent stacking bonuses to get out of hand. If anything, all bonuses to stat modifiers should be additive, otherwise balance would be out of whack, dramatically favouring the afore-mentioned issue.

Kreshja

alcast just did a vmol first boss 64k dps by magplar today. Magplar is the only mag class, correct me if im wrong, that can use dw optimized in pve so can get both bsw and moondancer full set and a monster set = op.

Seraphayel

JinMori wrote: »

And this is it, overall i'm not very satisfied with the changes.

We have to live with this kind of balance until Morrowind. There won't be any other balancing patches between now and then but I am pretty sure 3.0 (Morrowind) will have a massive impact on balance.

Asmael

JinMori wrote: »

Major force was changed so now it gives 15 % more critical damage, but additive, the previous major force gave 30 % but multiplicative, they said that this is not a nerf, which is true... partially, they forgot to tell you thet it's not a nerf unless you are running any type of crit modifier, which basically everyone does, the base crit damage is 50 % more then non crit, guess what 50*0.3= 15%
if zenimax wanted to buff the beginners and nerf the top, they they completely missed the target, because this is a nerf to literally everyone, this really pisses me off, because it invalidated the work of many players, while not giving anything to the casuals, this change is just stupid.

It does reduces the gap by not being as punishing to groups without a proper warhorn rotation. It does reduce the gap between the "ceiling and the floor" - uncoordinated and coordinated groups to be precise. Problem is: all classes and builds aren't hit the same - high crit reliant (Khajiit / NB / Templars / stam with 7m / 2 daggers / ...) are hit harder than other specs.

The buffs to Magicka nb are good, since it was lacking, grim focus is still a *** ability, and it's clunky as hell.

Lul, who plays mag NB in 2017?

Still no reason to play mag NB over magicka sorc.

What you did with mag dk was clever, reducing standard of might damage bonus from 20 to 15 % while increasing whip damage by 5% increases the damage in pvp while maintaining the same in pve, but you forgot stam dk, stam dk also use standard, so this is a nerf without anything to balance it out for them, i would suggest making flames of oblivion deal either flame or poison damage depending on your best stat, just like burning light, or slightly increase the dot damage.

Flames of Oblivion already scales well even for stamina, so buffing its single target potency further would make it mandatory on all stam DK builds. Very likely, they wanted to nerf stam DK more specifically because it was a "top pick" for stamina (along with stam sorc). They effectively reduced the gap between stamina classes by doing so, but increased it between magicka and stamina.

Elemental drain is a dead ability, minor magickasteal is much worse then the previous buff, please revert this.

Siphon spirit, same as above, probably even worse, this ability used to give back some magicka, not it gives minor magicksteal, and minor lifesteal which is a worthless buff, 600 health per second isn't gonna save you. and guess what, now templar has radiant aura, which gives minor magickasteal to everyone in your group, so yea, ele drain and siphon are completely dead, further decreasing build variety.

Actually - it's not, due to the way it functions. Magickasteal has a global cooldown instead of a cooldown per target, so placing it on all adds is irrelevant, so it's possible to stick to good ol' repentance. Ele drain's major breach helps for those situations where you want to increase the damage taken by adds too far away for the tank to debuff them - primary examples being the minimages in AA, adds on Varlariel, sometimes even Gargoyles on the Warrior... there are other cases.

Radiant aura is going to be a pretty amazing AoE aggro and sustain tool in PvP and fast-packed PvE (e.g dungeons). Siphon spirit is RIP, but I don't think healers will complain about it too much, due to how clunky it is. And it's more noob-healer friendly.

Medium armor is worse then light armor for these reasons:
While it gives more resistance, it's not enough to save you, gankers will still one shot you, and if the boss gets to you, you are in trouble, magicka has enormous shields and more self healing, stamina has more blocking and dodgeroll.

Agility is not as good as concentration, concentration gives almost 10 % more damage, while agility is greatly reliant on you weapon damage to increase dps, and it's not nearly as good as concentration, about half as much, and it doesn't scale as well.

Dexterity is not as good as prodigy, while it's true that it gives more crit then prodigy, you also have to take in account that it's only if you are running 7 pieces of medium armor, and the difference is not very big, about 2 % more crit, this does not go well with the undaunted passive.

And improved sneak is good basically only for pvp, give this ability to another skillline, and bring something that is actually useful please.

For more information about light and medium armor i suggest looking at gilliamtherogue videos.

Actually, comparing the two shows that medium armor mostly gets the extra benefit of stealth over light armor. In both cases, you'll die instantly to PvP gankers (but we can thank stealth damage for that). In PvE, yes, light armor provides a higher DPS increase than medium armor, but only due to the extra penetration, as the reduced stamina and increased critical actually provides more of an increase than 6% from undaunted and prodigy.

The proc sets change was a good change for pvp and not too damaging for pve, the only things that comes to my mind is that they could maybe make proc sets crit in pve and not crit in pvp.

#AshenGrip2017 #NeverForget

--

Overall, the goal behind the changes was to have similar parses for all boss fights and all specs, but Zos actually ignored that stamina builds were only picked because they were performing well in said boss fights, forgetting about AoE, survivability and utility completely. Housing definitely feels like it's missing half the natch potes when it comes to PvE balance. Stam NB and stamplar will still see (no) little play.

Another pretty big issue big is caltrops. The balancing on the boss parses was definitely done with caltrops in mind, so if you can't run it in a trial situation (because too many stam DDs), you are - by default - going to be underperforming. Morrowind could be an opportunity to alter this ability to either be usable by all stamina specs, or made less relevant while rebalancing other stamina AoE options. AoE in general definitely needs to be reevaluated.

I need to stop ranting, otherwise I'm gonna drop a #WallOfText attack.

Banana

They got all those streamers and gurus there at the moment. I'm sure they'll sort it out

olsborg

Medium armor is the worst armor , light armor is somewhat better, heavy armor is best by far. Please do something about that.

Edziu

if everyone meant about passive from medium which increases your weapon damage by 12% in compare to 5k penetration in light armor juz wait fro higher cp cap...it will take longer time but with more cp penetration from light armor will provide less bonus than % bonus to weapon damage

ChildOfLight

You miss to mention Eye of the storm .

Do you see some stamina user trying to engage? Are you dueling someone? Are you zerging like no tomorrow?

Forget about the other keys! All you need to do is pressing R !

The most versatile and powerful skill of the game will make the rest.

Actually magika users are like RRRRRRRRRRR and R

JinMori

Kreshja wrote: »

alcast just did a vmol first boss 64k dps by magplar today. Magplar is the only mag class, correct me if im wrong, that can use dw optimized in pve so can get both bsw and moondancer full set and a monster set = op.

That video was for still in the prevous patch, if you go and look at the damage meter you can see that the proc set critically hitted.

stevepdodson_ESO888

Kreshja wrote: »

alcast just did a vmol first boss 64k dps by magplar today. Magplar is the only mag class, correct me if im wrong, that can use dw optimized in pve so can get both bsw and moondancer full set and a monster set = op.

magDK can DW on a "whip it" bar, with fire pokey stick on the back bar

JinMori

Wait, now that we have minor magickasteal we can run a dw mag dk?

MalakithAlamahdi

ChildOfLight wrote: »

You miss to mention Eye of the storm .

Do you see some stamina user trying to engage? Are you dueling someone? Are you zerging like no tomorrow?

Forget about the other keys! All you need to do is pressing R !

The most versatile and powerful skill of the game will make the rest.

Actually magika users are like RRRRRRRRRRR and R

Wut? Yes, it does quite some damage, but other than zergs stacking it it's completely fine the way it is. I can heal trough it on every character that I have without any problems. Wanna counter a magicka player? Stun him every 6 seconds.

JinMori

Wait, now that we have minor magickasteal we can run a dw mag dk?

Asmael wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Major force was changed so now it gives 15 % more critical damage, but additive, the previous major force gave 30 % but multiplicative, they said that this is not a nerf, which is true... partially, they forgot to tell you thet it's not a nerf unless you are running any type of crit modifier, which basically everyone does, the base crit damage is 50 % more then non crit, guess what 50*0.3= 15%
if zenimax wanted to buff the beginners and nerf the top, they they completely missed the target, because this is a nerf to literally everyone, this really pisses me off, because it invalidated the work of many players, while not giving anything to the casuals, this change is just stupid.

It does reduces the gap by not being as punishing to groups without a proper warhorn rotation. It does reduce the gap between the "ceiling and the floor" - uncoordinated and coordinated groups to be precise. Problem is: all classes and builds aren't hit the same - high crit reliant (Khajiit / NB / Templars / stam with 7m / 2 daggers / ...) are hit harder than other specs.

The buffs to Magicka nb are good, since it was lacking, grim focus is still a *** ability, and it's clunky as hell.

Lul, who plays mag NB in 2017?

Still no reason to play mag NB over magicka sorc.

What you did with mag dk was clever, reducing standard of might damage bonus from 20 to 15 % while increasing whip damage by 5% increases the damage in pvp while maintaining the same in pve, but you forgot stam dk, stam dk also use standard, so this is a nerf without anything to balance it out for them, i would suggest making flames of oblivion deal either flame or poison damage depending on your best stat, just like burning light, or slightly increase the dot damage.

Flames of Oblivion already scales well even for stamina, so buffing its single target potency further would make it mandatory on all stam DK builds. Very likely, they wanted to nerf stam DK more specifically because it was a "top pick" for stamina (along with stam sorc). They effectively reduced the gap between stamina classes by doing so, but increased it between magicka and stamina.

Elemental drain is a dead ability, minor magickasteal is much worse then the previous buff, please revert this.

Siphon spirit, same as above, probably even worse, this ability used to give back some magicka, not it gives minor magicksteal, and minor lifesteal which is a worthless buff, 600 health per second isn't gonna save you. and guess what, now templar has radiant aura, which gives minor magickasteal to everyone in your group, so yea, ele drain and siphon are completely dead, further decreasing build variety.

Actually - it's not, due to the way it functions. Magickasteal has a global cooldown instead of a cooldown per target, so placing it on all adds is irrelevant, so it's possible to stick to good ol' repentance. Ele drain's major breach helps for those situations where you want to increase the damage taken by adds too far away for the tank to debuff them - primary examples being the minimages in AA, adds on Varlariel, sometimes even Gargoyles on the Warrior... there are other cases.

Radiant aura is going to be a pretty amazing AoE aggro and sustain tool in PvP and fast-packed PvE (e.g dungeons). Siphon spirit is RIP, but I don't think healers will complain about it too much, due to how clunky it is. And it's more noob-healer friendly.

Medium armor is worse then light armor for these reasons:
While it gives more resistance, it's not enough to save you, gankers will still one shot you, and if the boss gets to you, you are in trouble, magicka has enormous shields and more self healing, stamina has more blocking and dodgeroll.

Agility is not as good as concentration, concentration gives almost 10 % more damage, while agility is greatly reliant on you weapon damage to increase dps, and it's not nearly as good as concentration, about half as much, and it doesn't scale as well.

Dexterity is not as good as prodigy, while it's true that it gives more crit then prodigy, you also have to take in account that it's only if you are running 7 pieces of medium armor, and the difference is not very big, about 2 % more crit, this does not go well with the undaunted passive.

And improved sneak is good basically only for pvp, give this ability to another skillline, and bring something that is actually useful please.

For more information about light and medium armor i suggest looking at gilliamtherogue videos.

Actually, comparing the two shows that medium armor mostly gets the extra benefit of stealth over light armor. In both cases, you'll die instantly to PvP gankers (but we can thank stealth damage for that). In PvE, yes, light armor provides a higher DPS increase than medium armor, but only due to the extra penetration, as the reduced stamina and increased critical actually provides more of an increase than 6% from undaunted and prodigy.

The proc sets change was a good change for pvp and not too damaging for pve, the only things that comes to my mind is that they could maybe make proc sets crit in pve and not crit in pvp.

#AshenGrip2017 #NeverForget

--

Overall, the goal behind the changes was to have similar parses for all boss fights and all specs, but Zos actually ignored that stamina builds were only picked because they were performing well in said boss fights, forgetting about AoE, survivability and utility completely. Housing definitely feels like it's missing half the natch potes when it comes to PvE balance. Stam NB and stamplar will still see (no) little play.

Another pretty big issue big is caltrops. The balancing on the boss parses was definitely done with caltrops in mind, so if you can't run it in a trial situation (because too many stam DDs), you are - by default - going to be underperforming. Morrowind could be an opportunity to alter this ability to either be usable by all stamina specs, or made less relevant while rebalancing other stamina AoE options. AoE in general definitely needs to be reevaluated.

I need to stop ranting, otherwise I'm gonna drop a #WallOfText attack.

Just one thing, how does the warhorn nerf make anything better for pugs? Since the buff without any crit modifiers is exacly the same?

JinMori

Edziu wrote: »

if everyone meant about passive from medium which increases your weapon damage by 12% in compare to 5k penetration in light armor juz wait fro higher cp cap...it will take longer time but with more cp penetration from light armor will provide less bonus than % bonus to weapon damage

Unless zenimax realizes that we are over penetrating, and decides to increase resistances, or to allow overpenetration to add damage.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

The answer is not continue nerfing PvE because some PvP players have not yet learned to "git gud".

All The Best

JinMori

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

The answer is not continue nerfing PvE because some PvP players have not yet learned to "git gud".

All The Best

Well, it's undeniable that some skills cause problems in pvp, but there are other ways of approching things other then nefring damage, see my post about radiant.
The best would be to completely separate pvp from pve, and make skills work differently in those aspect of the game.

ADarklore

They announced that they were working on bringing the damage ceiling down, I think a lot of the changes were to do just that.

TequilaFire

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

The answer is not continue nerfing PvE because some PvP players have not yet learned to "git gud".

All The Best

Why do you bother with the hypocritical "ALL The Best" after insults?

Bobby_V_Rockit

So tine to respec stam sorcs into mag sorcs then?

JinMori

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

The answer is not continue nerfing PvE because some PvP players have not yet learned to "git gud".

All The Best

Why do you bother with the hypocritical "ALL The Best" after insults?

That's not an insult. You are so thin skinned.

Cheetac19

Why does ESO not do like some other MMOs and have skills work differently in PvP vs PvE? Take Neverwinter as an example. Skills will say they do one thing for PvE, and may have a nerfed PvP version.

Neoauspex

JinMori wrote: »

What are your thought on the current state of balance?

Radiant nerf does not solve anything, it's still op in pvp, people will still spam it from 100%, but in pve this is a very big nerf to magplar dps, i suggest reducing the range of this ability instead of the damage.

(Posted on PTS forums) reduce the power in proportion to range, so that it does minimal damage if the caster is hiding safely behind a zerg but is very effective if the caster is at risk in melee.

JinMori

Radiant nerf does not solve anything, it's still op in pvp, people will still spam it from 100%, but in pve this is a very big nerf to magplar dps, i suggest reducing the range of this ability instead of the damage.

[/quote]

(Posted on PTS forums) reduce the power in proportion to range, so that it does minimal damage if the caster is hiding safely behind a zerg but is very effective if the caster is at risk in melee.[/quote]

That would also be a pretty good idea, but i prefer to reduce the range, or maybe, reduce the damage, but increase the scaling, so it will act more as an execute, then a spammable at 40 %

BRogueNZ

ChildOfLight wrote: »

You miss to mention Eye of the storm .

Do you see some stamina user trying to engage? Are you dueling someone? Are you zerging like no tomorrow?

Forget about the other keys! All you need to do is pressing R !

The most versatile and powerful skill of the game will make the rest.

Actually magika users are like RRRRRRRRRRR and R

tru. im not a sorc i kinda need an ult to kill anyone unless I kill steal with radiant or lucky enough a dark flare crits

Gandrhulf_Harbard

TequilaFire wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

The answer is not continue nerfing PvE because some PvP players have not yet learned to "git gud".

All The Best

Why do you bother with the hypocritical "ALL The Best" after insults?

I didn't insult anyone - I made a general, slightly tongue-in-cheek, comment.

I can disagree most vehemently with someone and still wish them well - a difference of opinion is no justification for wishing someone ill.

All The Best