Why buffing the weak is better than nerfing the strong.

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JinMori
JinMori
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Nerfing always bothered me personally, and i finally found out why it bothers much more then buffing. This is the link to the video that explains the psychology behind This matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY



  • SickDuck
    SickDuck
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    I agree.

    Now buff all monsters and NPCs in game cause they are pathetic ;-)
    Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    Power creep.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    Power creep.

    Even if that was the case can you explain why trap beast was nerfed by 30 % even though stamina is already behind magicka?
    As well as major and minor force? these are the kind of nerfs that really bother me, it's just stupid.
  • SickDuck
    SickDuck
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    This would work perfectly fine in a pure PvP context. But with PvE the power creep would require to balance the whole content simultaneously. With a game of this magnitude it is just not feasible. I think the current all-around nerfs address this issue.

    Other thing is, even if you buff the weak and ignore the strong, the strong will feel ignored. Psychologically they may feel the same as being nerfed.

    And at the end of the day always the cheapest solution wins.
    Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner
  • Wow
    Wow
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    Because ZoS is lazy. So instead of buffing dozens more why not just nerf that particular set / skill / or whatever that is. The extra time could be used to work on more crown store items.
    I'm a Godot Engine and GameMaker enthusiast from the most populated island on earth, Java, Indonesia. Coffee is my staple fuel, and durian is my favourite fruit. I'm currently building a Visual Novel.
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    JinMori wrote: »

    Even if that was the case can you explain why trap beast was nerfed by 30 % even though stamina is already behind magicka?
    As well as major and minor force? these are the kind of nerfs that really bother me, it's just stupid.

    Because dmg was getting too much.

    Trap beast was the highest hitting dot in the game and only stamina had easy access to minor force.

    It was too the point that end game magicka builds had trap beast in their rotation as it add's so much dmg.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    Because dmg was getting too much.

    Trap beast was the highest hitting dot in the game and only stamina had easy access to minor force.

    It was too the point that end game magicka builds had trap beast in their rotation as it add's so much dmg.

    magicka build put trap beast on the bar not because of the dot damage, it's because of the minor force. As i said stamina is already behind magicka, next patch it's gonna be dead.
    And trap beast is a good dot yes, but it's not the best dot, poison injection, venomonous claw are even stronger.
    Edited by JinMori on February 5, 2017 1:42PM
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    JinMori wrote: »

    You don;t seem to understand the reason why magicka build put trap beast on the bar, it's not because of the dot damage, it's because of the minor force. As i said stamina is already behind magicka, next patch it's gonna be dead.

    Yes minor force... which stamina builds had easy access too and magicka didn't... hence why they slotted it.

    Yes stamina is behind magicka in end game pve trails only. You can still easily do 95% of the games pve with stamina. Stam sorc will still be the best msa class.

    Next patch stamina will likely be better then magicka etc... the thing with end game trials is that there will always be a build and a class that does the most dmg and as it's a competitive pve only that build will be used.

    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • AzuraKin
    AzuraKin
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    balance isnt about all skills working the same, or about all skills doing the same amount of damage. its about action and reactions. for example, animation cancelling removes reaction to high damage skills like uppercut. this creates imbalance. there is no real counter to proc sets like viper just a matter if it takes 1 or 2 hits for them to kill you. this is why i am so excited for camelot unchained. thier goal is to have a reaction for every action. for example:

    ice mages create a wall of ice.
    enemy fire mages melt ice
    wind mages blow steam created by melted ice to scald troops.

    or

    mage starts casting high powered spell
    archer hits mage with disruption damage disrupting spell
    spell explodes hurting allied forces instead of helping alies/hurting enemies.
    v160 spellsword (nightblade)
    v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
    v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
    v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
    v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
    v160 assassin (nightblade)
    v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
    v160 spellsword (nightblade)
  • Miss_Morphine
    Miss_Morphine
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    JinMori wrote: »
    Nerfing always bothered me personally, and i finally found out why it bothers much more then buffing. This is the link to the video that explains the psychology behind This matter.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY



    This works in fighting games because you're only fighting other players. In ESO you would have to buff ALL npcs to stop insane power creep. Regularly. This would take an insane amount of resources.
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  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    As previously stated, this only works for purely PVP games like Tekken, Street Fighter, Overwatch etc.

    Power Creep is an actual pressing phenomenon in MMOs. It happens to the best (GW2 for example).
    Kiss the chaos.
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    AzuraKin wrote: »
    balance isnt about all skills working the same, or about all skills doing the same amount of damage. its about action and reactions. for example, animation cancelling removes reaction to high damage skills like uppercut. this creates imbalance. there is no real counter to proc sets like viper just a matter if it takes 1 or 2 hits for them to kill you. this is why i am so excited for camelot unchained. thier goal is to have a reaction for every action. for example:

    ice mages create a wall of ice.
    enemy fire mages melt ice
    wind mages blow steam created by melted ice to scald troops.

    or

    mage starts casting high powered spell
    archer hits mage with disruption damage disrupting spell
    spell explodes hurting allied forces instead of helping alies/hurting enemies.

    You can't cancel uppercut...
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Buff light armor: Shield affinity - RankI/II - 2/4 seconds added to any damage shield duration. (Not healing ward)
    Buff medium armor: Pervade - RankI/II - 1000/2000 penetration added to any physical damage you do.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • WhiteMage
    WhiteMage
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    You could probably do this to balance ESO, but, in addition to bringing up the bottom performers, you'd also have to increase health pools (at least in PvP). That said, there is only so much you can do to create that "perfect imbalance", a sort of Rock Paper Scissors balancing, with only 4 classes which are differentiated by a total of 18 skills. There's really not a lot to work with here.
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  • Stovahkiin
    Stovahkiin
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    No
    Beware the battle cattle, but don't *fear* the battle cattle!
  • Wing
    Wing
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    every time I see an argument or video or discussion about buffing things instead of nerfing I know that the people advocating said idea know NOTHING about game design AT ALL!

    entire games are based around a power curve or difficulty curve. pre chosen during development as the desired balance line. if ONE thing is to high you don't raise EVERYTHING else you hammer that one thing back down into line.

    there is SOOOO much more to it then this simple point but ill simply say this. you end up with things like power creep, weird gameplay were you hit levels or end game were all of a sudden stats spike because the rest of the game was also not scaled up, weak endgame PvE because of the new in balanced scaling, number inflation, etc. etc. etc.

    NO, nerf the one thing, and deal with the crybabies that don't know *** about game design.

    also if you buff everything to match, then buff PvE to work with the new buffs, then everything plays the EXACT same as if you had just nerfed the one thing in the first place.

    like I said, people don't know *** about game design.
    Edited by Wing on February 5, 2017 5:26PM
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    previously full time subscriber, beta-2024, game got too disappointing.
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  • Gandrhulf_Harbard
    Gandrhulf_Harbard
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    Surely the only logical way to deal with power imbalance is NOT to just nerf the OP and buff the UP.

    But buff the bottom 30% of the UP AND nerf the top 30% of the OP so that everyone moves toward a centre of equilibrium.

    All The Best
    Those memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
    Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.
  • AzuraKin
    AzuraKin
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    WhiteMage wrote: »
    You could probably do this to balance ESO, but, in addition to bringing up the bottom performers, you'd also have to increase health pools (at least in PvP). That said, there is only so much you can do to create that "perfect imbalance", a sort of Rock Paper Scissors balancing, with only 4 classes which are differentiated by a total of 18 skills. There's really not a lot to work with here.

    18 skills for all classes that define how they play. a stam sorc using dual wield plays differently then a stam nightblade, who plays differently then a stam dk because of class skills.
    v160 spellsword (nightblade)
    v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
    v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
    v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
    v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
    v160 assassin (nightblade)
    v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
    v160 spellsword (nightblade)
  • AzuraKin
    AzuraKin
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    You can't cancel uppercut...

    yet its done all the time.
    v160 spellsword (nightblade)
    v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
    v160 battlemage (sorcerer)
    v160 restoration archmage (Templar)
    v160 warrior (DragonKnight)
    v160 assassin (nightblade)
    v160 swordsman (sorcerer)
    v160 spellsword (nightblade)
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    AzuraKin wrote: »

    yet its done all the time.

    You can't cancel uppercut anymore... haven't been able to for a while.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    Uppercut have a cast time it cannot be block cancelled, but i think you can still heavy attack weave it.
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    Or better, it can be block cancelled, but you will not do damage
  • Jemcrystal
    Jemcrystal
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    Long but interesting. I watched it all cause I have time today. Totally spot on. Good post, JinMori you got my upvote. I hope the devs look but I know they wont cause when are they gonna find time seriously. I just want to know why this is not common sense? I mean it is a good vid but why does anyone have to go to the effort to make a vid on what should be a dah. We learned not to nerf each other in kindergarden. Joey has a block. Suzy took block way. Joey is crying. Teacher is mad. Who the gdh invented nerfing in the first place. I made a game full of skills you enjoy because you can feel boss in a pretend world cause in the real world you are a pzant. AND NOW I'M GONNA TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU MUHAHAHAHHA. Your a pzant in real life and cyberland! Yeah, maybe people wont like it.
  • cjthibs
    cjthibs
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    Actually, the only way to truly balance is to reintroduce caps of some sort.

    All this buff/nerf whackamole crap is asinine.
  • Draqone
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    Surely the only logical way to deal with power imbalance is NOT to just nerf the OP and buff the UP.

    But buff the bottom 30% of the UP AND nerf the top 30% of the OP so that everyone moves toward a centre of equilibrium.

    All The Best

    If you ask 2 different ESO players you'll probably get 2 different answers about what is in the top 30% and what is in the bottom 30%
    ESO Balance:
    “All skills are equal, but some skills are more equal than others.”
  • SanTii.92
    SanTii.92
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    Power creep.

    Not only power creep but also more often than not is simpler to nerf a couple overperfming skills than buffing the whole game to compensate. Opposing to nerfs by principle is just plain stupid.
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    the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

    Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.
  • SanTii.92
    SanTii.92
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    Jemcrystal wrote: »
    Long but interesting. I watched it all cause I have time today. Totally spot on. Good post, JinMori you got my upvote. I hope the devs look but I know they wont cause when are they gonna find time seriously. I just want to know why this is not common sense? I mean it is a good vid but why does anyone have to go to the effort to make a vid on what should be a dah. We learned not to nerf each other in kindergarden. Joey has a block. Suzy took block way. Joey is crying. Teacher is mad. Who the gdh invented nerfing in the first place. I made a game full of skills you enjoy because you can feel boss in a pretend world cause in the real world you are a pzant. AND NOW I'M GONNA TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU MUHAHAHAHHA. Your a pzant in real life and cyberland! Yeah, maybe people wont like it.

    You feel like a boss because the skills you are using are relativly stronger to the rest of them.. nerfing it or buffing all the rest will make you feel exactly the same, weaker. The only difference is that nerfing this single skill overperfming is way simpler than adjusting every other in the game.
    When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
    the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

    Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    OP didn't watch the last ESO Live where they addressed this I see.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Gandrhulf_Harbard
    Gandrhulf_Harbard
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    Draqone wrote: »

    If you ask 2 different ESO players you'll probably get 2 different answers about what is in the top 30% and what is in the bottom 30%

    Very, very true.

    That is precisely why, were I ZOS, I wouldn't ask them.

    If I were ZOS I would have exact data which shows how skills perform, which skills "pay out" what level of effect for their cost, and how those skills are distributed across a "power curve". And from that I would know EXACTLY which skills were in the bottom 30% and which skills were in the top 30%.

    All The Best
    Those memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
    Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.
  • Violynne
    Violynne
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    AzuraKin wrote: »
    balance isnt about all skills working the same, or about all skills doing the same amount of damage.
    Actually, it is. In a typical RPS (Rock, Paper, Scissor) trichotomy, balance is key. Unfortunately, this balance isn't always easy to maintain.

    Two or three players, on the field at the same time, should be able to produce identical damage in identical rates (assuming all players are equally skilled). This ensures no one player overpowers another all things being equal.

    But if there's one rule which is guaranteed to crush this dynamic, is that players will always find ways to game the system to their advantage.

    This isn't a bad thing. Quite the opposite. Watching how gamers utilize the tools given to them is par for the course in ensuring everything else is either upgraded, or the new tool is downgraded.

    Spell canceling is a perfect example. If not all classes have the ability to break their primary attack, then spell canceling is an unfair advantage.

    It's also true it's impossible to design for every potential outcome, which is why this is always going to be a cat and mouse game (regardless of the game).

    Giving more power to the weak isn't an acceptable solution, because you can bet there will be people who will literally put on weaker gear or use weaker weapons to gain the handicap buff, making them stronger than their foes.

    The only way to ensure balance is to strip everything from everyone, and give them sticks to pummel each other with. No spells. No enchantments. No armor. Just naked toons running about with the same stick every other naked toon is running around with.

    There's a reason we're all playing ESO and not standing in room trying to play rock, paper, scissors. ;) That got old when we turned 4.
    ;)



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