After Months of Running Maw...

Miss_Morphine

...3-5 runs a week, completing all the achievements I have to go turn around and start farming normal for weapons because I still don't have a sharpened Moondancer lightning staff or sharpened swords.

If I just had really bad luck I get it but I'm far from the only person in this position on the team that I am part of.

It's insane, the RNG seriously needs to change. The system is clearly broken. I mean I must have gotten over 300 vMA weapons by now and still no sharpened inferno.

I'm up for a token system, smart RNG that remembers items you've already gotten - anything that could make this better. There are already plenty of wonderful suggestions on the forums.

If the RNG isn't going to change make more viable weapon traits. Buff precise and nirnhoned to produce slightly smaller numbers than sharpened but ones that are still comparable. When someone in all divides with precise will lose to someone in all prosperous with sharpened it's just not balanced. Something has got to give.

As I originally discussed this with @Oreyn_Bearclaw here's his take :

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Simply put, nothing has me more aggravated with this game as this issue right here. Yes, I farmed VMA for a year to get my staff. It is what it is I guess, its high level gear gated behind difficult content as they cant be obtained via Normal MA. I wont go into that, as it's been beaten to death.

In terms of trial gear, this is a completely different animal and needs addressing ASAP. I raid 3-4 nights a week, and often we get multiple clears a night. Since VMOL came out, our core team has almost exclusively run this trial. We spent several months to where we could easily farm Veteran mode on normal difficulty, then spent some time pushing scores. We then decided to tackle hardmode, and again, we spent MONTHS running this every night. We would get to the last boss in about 25 minutes, wipe for 2.5 hours straight, then turn off hard mode and clear. We would clear, every time we would run. I would wager that in terms of number of veteran clears of VMOL, our group is in the top few percent.

There are basically 3 items that are highly sort after from this place from a DPS perspective, as they are best in slot for certain builds. A Moondancer Inferno in Sharp, a Moondancer Lightning staff in sharp, and Moondancer Swords in (surprise surprise) sharp. I am one of 2 or 3 people in my raid that was lucky enough to get one of these (sharp Inferno), but of course, I play sorc, so I need the sharp lightning, so it sits in my bank. I have never to my knowledge seen a sharp sword drop for anyone in our raid, nor have I seen a sharp Moondancer lighting drop for anyone in our raid (expect one from a coffer that is not tradeable).

This Friday marks the 2 week anniversary of our hardmode clear. Check the video in our signature if you want to hear the audible jubilation that came with that accomplishment.

What happened next? Once my hands stopped shaking, I looted the chest and got a freaking bow of lunar bastion for my accomplishment, and it wasnt the first one. I proceeded to get sauced and celebrate for the rest of the night, and tried to put the pitiful reward out of my mind.

What happened on Saturday? For the first time, I started to grind normal Normal MOL. The first run, I see my elusive staff drop for someone else, good for them I guess, but doesnt do anything for me.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert Is this what you want? Do you really want your end game raiders forced into a mind-numbing normal mode grind to go after the one or two weapons we need to stay competitive? I am a huge fanboy, but I am sorry. This is a ridiculous state of things. People that grind normal who would get eaten alive in vet have all the weapons they need. Meanwhile, your core endgame community cant get what they are after after months and months of running the same VETERAN content over and over.

We need smarter loot. A alkosh inferno staff or bow of lunar bastion simply should not exist, but our raid could probably equip the entire pact with this stuff.

Edit: Also, I watched poor @Miss_Morphine get 3, count them 3, sharp moondancer RESTO staffs in a row. I myself have 2 lovely sharp moondancer DAGGERS, which of course are no use to anyone. Love it!

Edit 2: At the risk of sounding like an elitist jerk, how about you give anyone with a Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title the choice of one item from the loot table. I dare anyone to say with a straight face that people that put in that kinda work dont deserve it. Or we could go back to grinding normal...

Isellskooma

YAY WE HAVE A NEW RECORD, THE 1,000,000 RNG THREAD!

X3ina

I think that "test" with divines/precise vs prosperous/sharpened was made self buffed. I do believe that in any trial group with at least combat prayer, spc and random warhorns option 1 will beat option 2 by miles.

But rng is a total crap i agree with that

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Miss_Morphine wrote: »

...3-5 runs a week, completing all the achievements I have to go turn around and start farming normal for weapons because I still don't have a sharpened Moondancer lightning staff or sharpened swords.

If I just had really bad luck I get it but I'm far from the only person in this position on the team that I am part of.

It's insane, the RNG seriously needs to change. The system is clearly broken. I mean I must have gotten over 300 vMA weapons by now and still no sharpened inferno.

I'm up for a token system, smart RNG that remembers items you've already gotten - anything that could make this better. There are already plenty of wonderful suggestions on the forums.

If the RNG isn't going to change make more viable weapon traits. Buff precise and nirnhoned to produce slightly smaller numbers than sharpened but ones that are still comparable. When someone in all divides with precise will lose to someone in all prosperous with sharpened it's just not balanced. Something has got to give.

PS @Oreyn_Bearclaw I took your notion of making a thread about this.

I will chime in as well, as you beat me to the punch.

Simply put, nothing has me more aggravated with this game as this issue right here. Yes, I farmed VMA for a year to get my staff. It is what it is I guess, its high level gear gated behind difficult content as they cant be obtained via Normal MA. I wont go into that, as it's been beaten to death.

In terms of trial gear, this is a completely different animal and needs addressing ASAP. I raid 3-4 nights a week, and often we get multiple clears a night. Since VMOL came out, our core team has almost exclusively run this trial. We spent several months to where we could easily farm Veteran mode on normal difficulty, then spent some time pushing scores. We then decided to tackle hardmode, and again, we spent MONTHS running this every night. We would get to the last boss in about 25 minutes, wipe for 2.5 hours straight, then turn off hard mode and clear. We would clear, every time we would run. I would wager that in terms of number of veteran clears of VMOL, our group is in the top few percent.

There are basically 3 items that are highly sort after from this place from a DPS perspective, as they are best in slot for certain builds. A Moondancer Inferno in Sharp, a Moondancer Lightning staff in sharp, and Moondancer Swords in (surprise surprise) sharp. I am one of 2 or 3 people in my raid that was lucky enough to get one of these (sharp Inferno), but of course, I play sorc, so I need the sharp lightning, so it sits in my bank. I have never to my knowledge seen a sharp sword drop for anyone in our raid, nor have I seen a sharp Moondancer lighting drop for anyone in our raid (expect one from a coffer that is not tradeable).

This Friday marks the 2 week anniversary of our hardmode clear. Check the video in our signature if you want to hear the audible jubilation that came with that accomplishment.

What happened next? Once my hands stopped shaking, I looted the chest and got a freaking bow of lunar bastion for my accomplishment, and it wasnt the first one. I proceeded to get sauced and celebrate for the rest of the night, and tried to put the pitiful reward out of my mind.

What happened on Saturday? For the first time, I started to grind normal Normal MOL. The first run, I see my elusive staff drop for someone else, good for them I guess, but doesnt do anything for me.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert Is this what you want? Do you really want your end game raiders forced into a mind-numbing normal mode grind to go after the one or two weapons we need to stay competitive? I am a huge fanboy, but I am sorry. This is a ridiculous state of things. People that grind normal who would get eaten alive in vet have all the weapons they need. Meanwhile, your core endgame community cant get what they are after after months and months of running the same VETERAN content over and over.

We need smarter loot. A alkosh inferno staff or bow of lunar bastion simply should not exist, but our raid could probably equip the entire pact with this stuff.

Edit: Also, I watched poor @Miss_Morphine get 3, count them 3, sharp moondancer RESTO staffs in a row. I myself have 2 lovely sharp moondancer DAGGERS, which of course are no use to anyone. Love it!

Edit 2: At the risk of sounding like an elitist jerk, how about you give anyone with a Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title the choice of one item from the loot table. I dare anyone to say with a straight face that people that put in that kinda work dont deserve it. Or we could go back to grinding normal...

Lythandra

And this is why I don't really bother with end game and never will. I've done it all on normal just for the experience but playing their lottery format has zero allure for me. I do fine with crafted stuff.

LadyNalcarya

/signed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Deleted, meant to edit my last post.

redspecter23

ZOS, wake up. The weapon grind is pure insanity. Rebalance traits, token system, make more items bind on equip, something. There are a combination of issues leading to what is described here and it's not a good situation. Grinds should not be measured in years.

Miss_Morphine

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Miss_Morphine wrote: »

...3-5 runs a week, completing all the achievements I have to go turn around and start farming normal for weapons because I still don't have a sharpened Moondancer lightning staff or sharpened swords.

If I just had really bad luck I get it but I'm far from the only person in this position on the team that I am part of.

It's insane, the RNG seriously needs to change. The system is clearly broken. I mean I must have gotten over 300 vMA weapons by now and still no sharpened inferno.

I'm up for a token system, smart RNG that remembers items you've already gotten - anything that could make this better. There are already plenty of wonderful suggestions on the forums.

If the RNG isn't going to change make more viable weapon traits. Buff precise and nirnhoned to produce slightly smaller numbers than sharpened but ones that are still comparable. When someone in all divides with precise will lose to someone in all prosperous with sharpened it's just not balanced. Something has got to give.

PS @Oreyn_Bearclaw I took your notion of making a thread about this.

Edit: Also, I watched poor @Miss_Morphine get 3, count them 3, sharp moondancer RESTO staffs in a row. I myself have 2 lovely sharp moondancer DAGGERS, which of course are no use to anyone. Love it!

Yep that happened.

By the way mind if I include your post in the OP as it is much more eloquent than mine?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

redspecter23 wrote: »

ZOS, wake up. The weapon grind is pure insanity. Rebalance traits, token system, make more items bind on equip, something. There are a combination of issues leading to what is described here and it's not a good situation. Grinds should not be measured in years.

Boom!!!

KingYogi415

Token system = crap.

Smart loot needed.

Cheers!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Token system = crap.

Smart loot needed.

Cheers!

Agreed (although crap is a little harsh). While I would take a token system if that was my only other option, a smart loot system would be better. If you removed 75% of the useless crap in the table, we wouldnt be in this mess.

I will say it again. An inferno staff of Alkosh should not exist. There is no rational way to use this in a build. Play the way you want is fine, but that nonsense does not apply to end-game gear.

Linaleah

<-- more of a casual player so I pretty much make do with crafted sets, and... that brings me to my suggestion (as I totally do get the frustration)

just like you can currently change the enchantment on the gear... allow for crafting an item that can do the same to traits. essentially allow people to apply traits to items not just while crafting an item, but also to already existing items. details of how can be ironed out (whether it should be expensive to craft, or maybe it should be type of items specific so that researching traits for every single piece of gear is still viable) but... I think just ability to customize traits on trial and dungeon dropped sets would alleviate a lot of rng issues. IMO

Oakmontowls_ESO

Linaleah wrote: »

<-- more of a casual player so I pretty much make do with crafted sets, and... that brings me to my suggestion (as I totally do get the frustration)

just like you can currently change the enchantment on the gear... allow for crafting an item that can do the same to traits. essentially allow people to apply traits to items not just while crafting an item, but also to already existing items. details of how can be ironed out (whether it should be expensive to craft, or maybe it should be type of items specific so that researching traits for every single piece of gear is still viable) but... I think just ability to customize traits on trial and dungeon dropped sets would alleviate a lot of rng issues. IMO

Don't get me wrong I'd love a system like that. However, that kind of system would not be good for the game. The lure of getting bis items is a part of why people continue to run end game content like trials. If you are able to get your bis items in a couple runs, there will be no incentive to continue running the content.

Riejael

Essence runes used to make Maelstrom like enchants (doesn't have to be the same ones, just similar effects) that drop in Trials would fix the issue.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

<-- more of a casual player so I pretty much make do with crafted sets, and... that brings me to my suggestion (as I totally do get the frustration)

just like you can currently change the enchantment on the gear... allow for crafting an item that can do the same to traits. essentially allow people to apply traits to items not just while crafting an item, but also to already existing items. details of how can be ironed out (whether it should be expensive to craft, or maybe it should be type of items specific so that researching traits for every single piece of gear is still viable) but... I think just ability to customize traits on trial and dungeon dropped sets would alleviate a lot of rng issues. IMO

Don't get me wrong I'd love a system like that. However, that kind of system would not be good for the game. The lure of getting bis items is a part of why people continue to run end game content like trials. If you are able to get your bis items in a couple runs, there will be no incentive to continue running the content.

You are both right. This is why trait change should indeed be possible but also not trivial to accomplish.

Qbiken

Got my first sharpened inferno staff after run 7. System is fine

SleepyTroll

You farmed for months and didn't get what you wanted, ZOS got what they wanted. The system wont change if people keep doing what you are doing.

Miss_Morphine

SleepyTroll wrote: »

You farmed for months and didn't get what you wanted, ZOS got what they wanted. The system wont change if people keep doing what you are doing.

I farmed VMA sure but I didn't farm Maw. I ran it because I enjoy teamwork and a challenge. I farmed VMA for Maw. It's what I enjoy.

I love this game but the RNG is the only thing that at times seriously made me consider quitting.

Duiwel

I believe it took Alcast 9 months for his MD swords

idk

@Miss_Morphine

Wow, cleared vMoL HM without the weapon you desire and not want the game to remember all the loot you have received and not duplicate any of it.

What if someone received a sharpened dagger and wants another, now they have to receive every weapon in every possible trait to have a chance at a second sharpened dagger with the system you want.

Besides it being obviously to much of a burden on Zos' part and other complications, No.

I do agree the chance at getting a weapon is so much lower than anything else and that should be adjusted, but nothing like the idea you present.

altemriel

Miss_Morphine wrote: »

...3-5 runs a week, completing all the achievements I have to go turn around and start farming normal for weapons because I still don't have a sharpened Moondancer lightning staff or sharpened swords.

If I just had really bad luck I get it but I'm far from the only person in this position on the team that I am part of.

It's insane, the RNG seriously needs to change. The system is clearly broken. I mean I must have gotten over 300 vMA weapons by now and still no sharpened inferno.

I'm up for a token system, smart RNG that remembers items you've already gotten - anything that could make this better. There are already plenty of wonderful suggestions on the forums.

If the RNG isn't going to change make more viable weapon traits. Buff precise and nirnhoned to produce slightly smaller numbers than sharpened but ones that are still comparable. When someone in all divides with precise will lose to someone in all prosperous with sharpened it's just not balanced. Something has got to give.

As I originally discussed this with @Oreyn_Bearclaw here's his take :

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Simply put, nothing has me more aggravated with this game as this issue right here. Yes, I farmed VMA for a year to get my staff. It is what it is I guess, its high level gear gated behind difficult content as they cant be obtained via Normal MA. I wont go into that, as it's been beaten to death.

In terms of trial gear, this is a completely different animal and needs addressing ASAP. I raid 3-4 nights a week, and often we get multiple clears a night. Since VMOL came out, our core team has almost exclusively run this trial. We spent several months to where we could easily farm Veteran mode on normal difficulty, then spent some time pushing scores. We then decided to tackle hardmode, and again, we spent MONTHS running this every night. We would get to the last boss in about 25 minutes, wipe for 2.5 hours straight, then turn off hard mode and clear. We would clear, every time we would run. I would wager that in terms of number of veteran clears of VMOL, our group is in the top few percent.

There are basically 3 items that are highly sort after from this place from a DPS perspective, as they are best in slot for certain builds. A Moondancer Inferno in Sharp, a Moondancer Lightning staff in sharp, and Moondancer Swords in (surprise surprise) sharp. I am one of 2 or 3 people in my raid that was lucky enough to get one of these (sharp Inferno), but of course, I play sorc, so I need the sharp lightning, so it sits in my bank. I have never to my knowledge seen a sharp sword drop for anyone in our raid, nor have I seen a sharp Moondancer lighting drop for anyone in our raid (expect one from a coffer that is not tradeable).

This Friday marks the 2 week anniversary of our hardmode clear. Check the video in our signature if you want to hear the audible jubilation that came with that accomplishment.

What happened next? Once my hands stopped shaking, I looted the chest and got a freaking bow of lunar bastion for my accomplishment, and it wasnt the first one. I proceeded to get sauced and celebrate for the rest of the night, and tried to put the pitiful reward out of my mind.

What happened on Saturday? For the first time, I started to grind normal Normal MOL. The first run, I see my elusive staff drop for someone else, good for them I guess, but doesnt do anything for me.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert Is this what you want? Do you really want your end game raiders forced into a mind-numbing normal mode grind to go after the one or two weapons we need to stay competitive? I am a huge fanboy, but I am sorry. This is a ridiculous state of things. People that grind normal who would get eaten alive in vet have all the weapons they need. Meanwhile, your core endgame community cant get what they are after after months and months of running the same VETERAN content over and over.

We need smarter loot. A alkosh inferno staff or bow of lunar bastion simply should not exist, but our raid could probably equip the entire pact with this stuff.

Edit: Also, I watched poor @Miss_Morphine get 3, count them 3, sharp moondancer RESTO staffs in a row. I myself have 2 lovely sharp moondancer DAGGERS, which of course are no use to anyone. Love it!

Edit 2: At the risk of sounding like an elitist jerk, how about you give anyone with a Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title the choice of one item from the loot table. I dare anyone to say with a straight face that people that put in that kinda work dont deserve it. Or we could go back to grinding normal...

smart RNG that remembers items you've already gotten - anything that could make this better.

this

G0ku

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

What if someone received a sharpened dagger and wants another, now they have to receive every weapon in every possible trait to have a chance at a second sharpened dagger with the system you want.

easy solution, just do it like the upcoming vmsa change, one-handed weapons always drop in pairs

Parasaurolophus

Yes, we need smart loot system, but! only for vet HM dungeon mode or HM in the trials and vMSA/DSA weekly rewards. It would be fair. Because needet stopped farm normal mod, itso boring.

DRXHarbinger

All this talk of smart systems....bla bla bla.

Just limit the traits and revise the drops. There is no need for lunar bastion restos or Moondancer bows. Just remove them. All end game drops should be somewhat worthwhile...period. not all weapons need to drop in sharpened. But like the old vma drops. Sharp / precise and defending. Even decisive has its uses so lump that in too.



Or just go full mongrel and add in training and prosperous. Either way.

SuperLarrio

The countless threads on this make it pretty simple to see what should change while keeping rng, keeping some grinding necessary...

-Eliminate training and prosperous from anything vet
-Eliminate useless combos (powered moondancer bows)
-Make precise and nirnhoned on par with sharpened(still keeps the grind going just opens more options. Non min/maxers can still get infused/decisive/defending to just finish sets)

Seems pretty simple to me

Miss_Morphine

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Miss_Morphine

Wow, cleared vMoL HM without the weapon you desire and not want the game to remember all the loot you have received and not duplicate any of it.

What if someone received a sharpened dagger and wants another, now they have to receive every weapon in every possible trait to have a chance at a second sharpened dagger with the system you want.

Besides it being obviously to much of a burden on Zos' part and other complications, No.

I do agree the chance at getting a weapon is so much lower than anything else and that should be adjusted, but nothing like the idea you present.

I cleared over and over and over for months to the point of being able to accomplish every goal without getting the weapons. Months. Grinds shouldn't be that long.
Also

G0ku wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

What if someone received a sharpened dagger and wants another, now they have to receive every weapon in every possible trait to have a chance at a second sharpened dagger with the system you want.

easy solution, just do it like the upcoming vmsa change, one-handed weapons always drop in pairs

Finally I just brought up many of the suggested fixes. I don't care how it's fixed so long as it is. No one should have to farm content for literally months. It's absurd.
@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

All this talk of smart systems....bla bla bla.

Just limit the traits and revise the drops. There is no need for lunar bastion restos or Moondancer bows. Just remove them. All end game drops should be somewhat worthwhile...period. not all weapons need to drop in sharpened. But like the old vma drops. Sharp / precise and defending. Even decisive has its uses so lump that in too.



Or just go full mongrel and add in training and prosperous. Either way.

I think that is what we are describing by saying smart loot. A few patches ago, the devs had mentioned something about "smart loot" and used examples of stamina weapons with magic traits (moondancer Bow) or the opposite magic weapons with stamina traits (inferno staff of Alkosh) as items that would no longer drop. This obviously never materialized.

It all comes to the same thing. Weapon loot tables are simply out of control. On a dungeon boss, I count 13 possible weapons, generally 3 set types, and usually 8 traits (nirn doesnt drop for most stuff). That's 1/312, but from what I can tell, you have about a 50/50 shot at weapon vs jewelry so really 1/624. That is beyond insanity. I love this game but no content is good enough to run 624 times, and even then a good percentage of the people could still miss out on the item they are after.

I think trial loot tables are a little better (no training or prosperous), but it is also much more difficult to organize 12 people than 4.