The Real Issue with This ESO+ Debacle

Blackfyre20

So there's plenty of bickering on both sides everywhere about the cost of Morrowind and how it is not included with ESO+ and I just want to point out what I think the heart of the issue is here. First of all, I would have had no problem with this huge expansion costing $40 and not being included with ESO+. Between battlegrounds, a new trial, and an enormous zone of quests, there is an incredible amount of content here for everyone, so feel free to call it an "expansion" and not a "DLC." I was hyped to see this and it made me feel okay about the lack of meaningful content that we've gotten in I don't even know how long.

I say I would have had no problem with this, but instead I would like a refund on my ESO+ subscription for at least the past six months. I say this because I have always paid for ESO+ with the understanding that DLC content is included with my subscription because it is what ZOS told us is included. They had also made a pattern of putting out quarterly DLC, leading players to believe this would be how things would work. So while I have no problem with my ESO+ not including huge expansions, I did expect it to include DLCs that come out with some sort of regularity. Had ZOS told me after Dark Brotherhood that the only new content I was going to get out of my ESO+ subscription until May 2017 was 2 dungeons, there is absolutely no chance I would've paid $15 a month during that span. That is basically just paying for a crafting bag, which I can manage to do without with a little effort, and some really expensive crowns. That's not what I agreed to pay for.

I will have absolutely no issue dropping the $40 for what looks to be an amazing new DLC, but I will not be renewing my ESO+ after it expires soon. ZOS has done nothing short of deceiving players out of money since Dark Brotherhood. They knew then that they had no intention of releasing any new content until this huge expansion, but they chose not to tell players because certainly that would have resulted in fewer ESO+ subscriptions. For those who keep repeating "This is an expansion, not a DLC, there's a difference," I understand that there is a difference. I also know that if I were to continue paying for ESO+ until Morrowind releases that I would be owed the equivalent of about 4 "DLC," which one could argue is probably in the ballpark of one "expansion."

Morrowind looks awesome, and I will certainly play the s*** out of it. I just wanted to point out the shady deception from ZOS that has occurred that many people do not seem to realize. Players can QQ all they want about crown crates or balance changes they don't like, but at least those are out in the open for everyone to see. This was just a way for ZOS to milk a few bucks outta players for a year before we realized what was happening.

Stovahkiin

*lifts hands to start typing intelligent response*

......gah, I'm just gonna go to bed.

MLGProPlayer

Here is the Twitter post promising quarterly updates, for anyone interested:

SnubbS

Eh, it's just a shady business practice. It's good to know that ZoS will know that the consumers know that they've done something shady. Nothing wrong with a bit of unrest.

Sausage

I approve what they are doing, people will realize its a hoax later but hopefully it generates enough hype and bring people to the game. Expansions has been the gerne standard last 20 year so it would be foolish not to take an advantage of it.

craftycarper73

its very bungie/activision - destiny-esque snide way of doing things

davey1107

I'm as critical about bad business from game companies as anyone...I though Shadows of the Hist was a total rip, lol. But your case is pretty weak and silly. It boils down to:

1. Last year I paid $15 per month for ESO plus.
2. At the time I paid, I was told that monthly fee would give me access to specific areas.
3. I got access to those areas.
4. I also got 9,000+ crowns (6 months), which more than allow me to purchase permanent access to the DLC zones I was getting should a cancel my subscription.
5. Now that a future area isn't offered under plus I'm upset, so much so that I feel that this decision resonates backward through time so that the benefits and enjoyment I received playing last year are diminished soooooo much that I'm entitled to a refund.

That's an entirely ridiculous case to make. Your ESO renews once per month. If you don't like the benefits, don't pay. They haven't slighted you until May...they haven't slighted you at all. They offered a product last year and you bought it and liked it. They're offering a new one now. Buy it...don't but it...but don't try to con everyone into believing that we should all pay for you to have played last year because you're unhappy about future offerings.

Travestynox

Personally I think I'll just buy the 5500 crown pack of all the existing DLCs and then cancel my sub. I think they shot themselves in the foot with the sub and crown system. Most people who sub have so many crowns saved up they simply couldn't let all those players just buy this new expansion with saved crowns.
I get it, but it's still shady.
40$ for a new expansion isn't that much I guess, I'll buy it, but I see no reason to pay 15$ each month on top of that, for essentially just a crafting bag. I have materials I need in there for all foreseeable future, and I'll live without the +10% gold / experience.

Sigma957

Never cancel my sub never ever, crafting bag alone is worth the $15 a month, dlc will still be free to use just not expansions.

esotoon

davey1107 wrote: »

1. Last year I paid $15 per month for ESO plus.
2. At the time I paid, I was told that monthly fee would give me access to specific areas.
3. I got access to those areas.
4. I also got 9,000+ crowns (6 months), which more than allow me to purchase permanent access to the DLC zones I was getting should a cancel my subscription.
5. Now that a future area isn't offered under plus I'm upset, so much so that I feel that this decision resonates backward through time so that the benefits and enjoyment I received playing last year are diminished soooooo much that I'm entitled to a refund.

You missed:

6. At the time it had also been stated that we would be getting 4 quarterly DLCs. We Have now gone 2 Quarters without DLC. When ESO: Morrowind comes out, it will be the third quarter in a row without DLC.

Coincidentally, Morrowind contains about 3 Quarters worth of DLC. Battlegrounds = equivalent of IC. 20 hours worth of the 30 hours content = Orsinium. 10 hours worth of the playable content + 12 man trial = Thieves Guild DLC. Funny that.

probablyafk

davey1107 wrote: »

They're offering a new one now. Buy it...don't but it...but don't try to con everyone into believing that we should all pay for you to have played last year because you're unhappy about future offerings.

It is slightly more complicated than that. People who buy ESO+ feel they are subcribing to the future releases of the game. If the proposed content in the expac was amazing then 90% of the people complaining would not be doing so. They would be all aboard the hype train.

But it's not. This is one more zone. One new class. Not much else. Compare that to massive replay value in a typical WoW expansion. Multiple zones with hundreds of hours game play, heaps of dungeons, a new big arse raid, and - most of all - lots of big changes to the core game that renew the community and provide a new start for people. You can go an replay classes, you can level up all your other toons.

Here, you're going to level up a warden in the singe new zone, then straight into the end game at full equiv level. The equip is all going to level up too, right? Where's the $40 worth of fun?

I agree ESO+ subscribers shouldn't feel entitled to an expansion. But to call this an expansion is very much pushing the boundaries of decency for a lot of people. It's just so ... underwhelming.

mewcatus

Honestly speaking. I can't afford both subs and the new expansion at the same time. Its either one for me. Thankfully, my subs run out before the new expansion comes out, so for at least a few months, I will have to last without subbing to ESO+ to afford the new expansion.

SanTii.92

First, 1t and homestead are definetly querterly dlcs, them being free doesnt hinder their status as dlcs at all.

Second, your sub covered access to all current content as advertised, why would you rightfully think that it should be so in the future indistinctly? And why would you get a refund when the service for which you paid was delivered.

Wanderinlost

You shouldn't be surprised. They are pulling every trick in the book. They repaired the base game, did some truly great things, made an attractive and flexible business model. They generated positive interest in the gaming community, brought in many new people in and retained old ones. A great success on every front. Now that they have hit critical mass it is time to push every limit balls out. Make DLC/B2P customers subscribe with a major QoL feature like the crafting bag. Make subscribers buy an "expansions" *cough-DLC-cough*. Then to top it off they begin conditioning there customers to compulsively and addictively spend with attractive gatcha lockboxes.

They said that the expansion will be big, even though the previous scaling makes it look like it might not actually be that big. However perhaps they will work some voodoo and it will be exceptional and well worth it. Perhaps there will be post expansion content that is the standard in game game expansions like WoW/Gw2 etc. So maybe this return to morrowind will be great for everyone. However maybe it won't and this is simple corporate; have your cake and eat it too 101.

Games making money and turning a profit is necessary for its long term health but I for one do not like being manipulated. I was becoming very enthusiastic about this game right up until they decided to screw MTX customers out of the long awaited crafting bag. Prior to that I spent a bit over $300. Since then I have spent $15 total and taken the time to occasionally point this out instead of giving them positive word of mouth. I doubt it will ever matter but sometimes it is worth pointing out such affronts.

Totes-Bode

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Here is the Twitter post promising quarterly updates, for anyone interested:

Imperial City was called an Expansion Pack when I originally bought the game. Googling "ESO Imperial City Expansion Pack" shows news articles and online game stores terming it the same as well. "Tamriel Unlimited" is also called an Expansion Pack across media outlets.

Blackfyre20

davey1107 wrote: »

I'm as critical about bad business from game companies as anyone...I though Shadows of the Hist was a total rip, lol. But your case is pretty weak and silly. It boils down to:

1. Last year I paid $15 per month for ESO plus.
2. At the time I paid, I was told that monthly fee would give me access to specific areas.
3. I got access to those areas.
4. I also got 9,000+ crowns (6 months), which more than allow me to purchase permanent access to the DLC zones I was getting should a cancel my subscription.
5. Now that a future area isn't offered under plus I'm upset, so much so that I feel that this decision resonates backward through time so that the benefits and enjoyment I received playing last year are diminished soooooo much that I'm entitled to a refund.

That's an entirely ridiculous case to make. Your ESO renews once per month. If you don't like the benefits, don't pay. They haven't slighted you until May...they haven't slighted you at all. They offered a product last year and you bought it and liked it. They're offering a new one now. Buy it...don't but it...but don't try to con everyone into believing that we should all pay for you to have played last year because you're unhappy about future offerings.

So I hear where you're coming from, but first of all, getting enough crowns to buy each DLC doesn't matter because it still would have been significantly cheaper to just buy them. This future announcement hasn't diminished the enjoyment I've had over the past six months, I never said that it did. I think that I am entitled to a refund because what this expansion shows is that ZOS has know for a long time now that ESO+ subscribers would be getting no new content out of their subscription for a long time. Yet, they continued to market the ESO+ subscription as one that includes regularly released DLC. That's just purposefully deceptive business practice. My problem isn't that there is future content not offered under ESO+, it's that no content will be offered under ESO+ for a year and we are just finding out about that now.

My ESO+ doesn't renew once per month, it renews once every six months. I understand how a subscription works and as I said, I don't like it, so I won't pay. They have indeed slighted me for the remaining time on my sub though which is a few months. "They offered a product last year and you bought it and liked it" is just simply not true. They offered a product (access to quarterly DLC), I liked that so I bought it, and then I never received said product, so no, I didn't like it. I'm not upset over getting a bad DLC out of my ESO+ (SOTH) or missing a quarter here and there, but we haven't gotten meaningful content since DB and won't until at least the 3rd quarter of 2017, and I still have a few months left on my ESO+ which I have paid for. Final thing, where do you get the notion that I want you to pay me back? Unless you work for ZOS, I'm not asking for anything from you. And something along the lines of "I pay for the game so you're asking for money from me" is significantly more absurd than my "ridiculous case."

I really like this game and am pumped for Morrowind. I'm not mad about getting an overall bad product. The issue is that I would have gotten equal enjoyment out of the game without paying $15 per month for it. It has added nothing to my gameplay experience, which is why I feel slighted.

Blackfyre20

SanTii.92 wrote: »

First, 1t and homestead are definetly querterly dlcs, them being free doesnt hinder their status as dlcs at all.

Second, your sub covered access to all current content as advertised, why would you rightfully think that it should be so in the future indistinctly? And why would you get a refund when the service for which you paid was delivered.

They're not quarterly DLCs in that they add absolutely no value to my sub whatsoever. I would have the same access to these DLCs without paying $15 per month. ESO+ is not advertised as covering content that everyone else gets for free also. It is advertised as access to DLCs which would otherwise need to be paid for. So no, the service for which I paid has not been delivered.

Grileenor

SanTii.92 wrote: »

First, 1t and homestead are definetly querterly dlcs, them being free doesnt hinder their status as dlcs at all.

Actually, you are wrong. 1t and homestead are free additions to the game as there have been quite a few (i.e. justicesystem, crafting writs etc.) DLC content has always been exclusive with a price in crowns or to use with ESO+.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

davey1107 wrote: »

I'm as critical about bad business from game companies as anyone...I though Shadows of the Hist was a total rip, lol. But your case is pretty weak and silly. It boils down to:

1. Last year I paid $15 per month for ESO plus.
2. At the time I paid, I was told that monthly fee would give me access to specific areas.
3. I got access to those areas.
4. I also got 9,000+ crowns (6 months), which more than allow me to purchase permanent access to the DLC zones I was getting should a cancel my subscription.
5. Now that a future area isn't offered under plus I'm upset, so much so that I feel that this decision resonates backward through time so that the benefits and enjoyment I received playing last year are diminished soooooo much that I'm entitled to a refund.

That's an entirely ridiculous case to make. Your ESO renews once per month. If you don't like the benefits, don't pay. They haven't slighted you until May...they haven't slighted you at all. They offered a product last year and you bought it and liked it. They're offering a new one now. Buy it...don't but it...but don't try to con everyone into believing that we should all pay for you to have played last year because you're unhappy about future offerings.

I really havent seen to many ask for a refund. Ive actually seen noone. Although truth be told i skim a lot of these post. My issue is, im a subber. I sub for access to content. As was promised. This will not be covered. Which then starts the trend, and the worry, in the future wont what be covered? So i will no longer sub. I subbed. Now i wont. I will pay for the dlc i want and get the free stuff just like everyone else. If i make it long enough six months to a year down the road maybe ill sub again for a month to put mats in my crafting bag then cancel again.

SGT_Wolfe101st

SanTii.92 wrote: »

First, 1t and homestead are definetly querterly dlcs, them being free doesnt hinder their status as dlcs at all.

Second, your sub covered access to all current content as advertised, why would you rightfully think that it should be so in the future indistinctly? And why would you get a refund when the service for which you paid was delivered.

1T and Homestead are available to all, with or without the sub, doesn't really fit the model of subbing equals access to quarterly DLC.

LiquidPony

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Here is the Twitter post promising quarterly updates, for anyone interested:

I'm not sure I'd call that a "promise."

Anyway, aren't we getting a "Road Ahead" article today with the upcoming DLC announcements? And we got, what, IC (9/2015), Orsinium (11/2015), TG (3/2016), DB (6/2016), and SoTH (8/2016). That's 5 DLCs in a year, right?

raglau

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

I'm as critical about bad business from game companies as anyone...I though Shadows of the Hist was a total rip, lol. But your case is pretty weak and silly. It boils down to:

1. Last year I paid $15 per month for ESO plus.
2. At the time I paid, I was told that monthly fee would give me access to specific areas.
3. I got access to those areas.
4. I also got 9,000+ crowns (6 months), which more than allow me to purchase permanent access to the DLC zones I was getting should a cancel my subscription.
5. Now that a future area isn't offered under plus I'm upset, so much so that I feel that this decision resonates backward through time so that the benefits and enjoyment I received playing last year are diminished soooooo much that I'm entitled to a refund.

That's an entirely ridiculous case to make. Your ESO renews once per month. If you don't like the benefits, don't pay. They haven't slighted you until May...they haven't slighted you at all. They offered a product last year and you bought it and liked it. They're offering a new one now. Buy it...don't but it...but don't try to con everyone into believing that we should all pay for you to have played last year because you're unhappy about future offerings.

I really havent seen to many ask for a refund. Ive actually seen noone. Although truth be told i skim a lot of these post. My issue is, im a subber. I sub for access to content. As was promised. This will not be covered. Which then starts the trend, and the worry, in the future wont what be covered? So i will no longer sub. I subbed. Now i wont. I will pay for the dlc i want and get the free stuff just like everyone else. If i make it long enough six months to a year down the road maybe ill sub again for a month to put mats in my crafting bag then cancel again.

I agree, I am not going to cancel my sub and ask for a refund, although I largely think I'd have grounds to because of how ESO+ was offered when I subbed, but I'm only 1 month away from my latest 6 month sub expiring naturally anyway. But I am not going to resub. Purely in the context of digital content, a sub is now redundant, ZOS have set out their stall and there's no getting away from the fact that they wish to classify their content as sub included or not, and that there's no guidance on how this is done, so they will arbitrarily do this with no input from the customer. In such a scenario it's impossible to justify buying a sub - on basis of content - because it's now unclear what you get. Although one thing is clear; we've not got any content for about 1 year that depended on the sub.

Now, some people may like the sub for the crafting bag and boosts, but as a player with max level chars in all classes and a master crafter, the boosts are meaningless. The crafting bag is useful but it's not 100 quid a year useful. So I believe this move has made the sub redundant for the vast majority of long-term players like myself, because they'll be in a similar scenario. So clearly subs will dwindle via attrition.

So whilst I won't be turning up flaming pitchfork in hand, it's certainly changed the way I'll relate to the game, and the way I'll fund it. ZOS must have realised this, and felt that's the model they wanted. It's often said that subs are something of a burden to a company, because they leave money on the table due to the fact the type of people that buy subs over-consume by their very nature.

wolfydog

I'm just happy to have content. As a PC player, ESO will have been out for 3 years in a couple months. Basically for 2 of those years we have had no new content. First year was just waiting for console to come out. Then we got IC, Wrothgar, Thief and Dark Bros. Dark Bros came out May 2016. Shadows of the hist was barely anything so basically by the time Morrowind comes out, that's a year down with almost no new content.

Despite the lack of new content, the major changes they made like One Tamriel and removal of vet levels are great and needed to take the game forward.

Anyways, I was hoping for at least at least wrothgar sized DLC after housing, and this will be much better. Just the biggest zone so far which will be full of content and battlegrounds alone should be great.

I'm not super excited about the new class. I've been through the 3 factions a lot so far so I'm not really inrested leveling again. If Morrowind could take you to 50 that would be amazing maybe if a morrowind + current DLC could take you there that might be fun too.

I also hope next the chapter after Morrowind is something totally new. I'd love to see like Elsweyr or Summerset isles, or something we've never done in Skyrim, Oblivion or mOrrowind single player games would be nice