Question: Why do people hate the way ESO sustains itself?

117Dios

I am genuinely unable to understand some things. ESO is a B2P title with various bundles and benefits attached to them.
Truth is, a B2P game cannot sustain itself on sales only. So, like any sane company would do, ZOS created the crownstore, where gameplay-irrelevant stuff was put to make you look a bit more shiny. All fun and games.

Then ZOS put the Crown Crates. Gamble mechanism where you can get that shiny stuff and some more, more shiny, things. Alright. Atronach Wolf and Bear seemed cool but I couldn't get myself to buy a couple of those crates because I need money for other stuff.

ZOS steadily releases costumes and motifs. Talking for myself, I'm fine with having only an armor. Heck, for me the Imperial and Nord Heavy are the best things in the game.

ZOS puts housing in. "Awesome!" I think. Let's see some opinions on the forum, maybe I can learn a thing or two about it.
No storage. "Aw, oh well, I guess those couple chars I have and the bank space should suffice anyway." with the optional "I have the craft bag, so all cool for me anyway". Didn't seem that big of a deal to me, so I moved on.
Houses can be bought with crowns. Suddently, uproar. Why is that so? Why are people hating on ZOS putting houses for sale through crowns too?

ZOS puts Name, Race and Appearance change up.
People start complaining about other people that are able to change those features.
"I don't want to change that stuff, why should they?" or "I want to change it too, why isn't it free?"
As far as I've seen, no one actually said that directly, but the underlying message was pretty much what I've written.

I agree that a couple things need improvement. Mainly the horse training needs to be improved and the trading houses need to be a bit more compact, but why are most people so hostile towards ZOS and other players for using money to get game benefits?

Most comment I've read assume that everything in the game should be free and obtainable only through sweating in front of the screen. Entitled, lazy or downright hating players that seek things to go as it pleases them without wanting to do anything in return.

Some time ago, a B2P or P2P model was thought to be a good way to filter toxic behaviours. What happened? Is it some kind of elitism? Do they believe that buying a game and only paying for that will fund the company? Is wanting free stuff and demonizing those that buy it a way to cope for something?
I am really baffled at the complete absence of logic behind that. Or rather, I can't see it, I guess.

Some people may say "It's just a step towards a Pay to Win model."
But what if it isn't, and by acting like spoiled children you are invalidating your opinion if things get messy for real, and you won't be heard for all the useless hassle you caused?
I bought the game and managed to squeeze in the Guilds and Glory pack when it came out. Didn't spend a single cent besides that and I am simply satisfied of what I got. Unless housing is so bad that it somehow destroys my equimenet and my chances at doing anything useful in the game, I don't see why people buying them with real cash is a problem.
If they want to do it, let them.
If they can do it and have the money to buy all the cosmetics then good on him and wish me luck to get to the point of spending numbers with more than 3 zeroes on a game.
If they can't afford it but buy it anyway, it's their problem. I won't spend something on a game if I need it to eat.

Just saying, don't fear change and, if you don't want to earn stuff in game, just pay. Truth is no one is encouraging you to pay. Everybody is allured by shiny and useless stuff. You just don't have to give in.

Blacksmoke

Because people like whining a lot

ArcVelarian

Because people have seen other games follow the same path and die a slow and horrible death. Just take SWTOR for example, the game ultimately failed because the cash shop was draining too much development time away from actual content and the free to play option would nickel and dime people away from the game.

People have come to REALLY despise cash shops in games as they are an indicator of the kinds of practices a company is willing to stoop to.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Because...

- (Some) people are ignorant. They think they know better than ZOS what should and shouldn't be done as a business model.
- (Some) people are - again - ignorant. They think that every time ZOS offers something for crowns it's a rip-off.
- (Some) people are snobs. They'll genuinely feel frustrated by someone with a storm atro mount if they haven't one
- (Some) people are not aware of their own power over their own purse. They'll buy something even if they think it's too expensive or not worth it or low quality.
- (Some) people are worried. They think the game is on the slope to pay-to-win.
- (Some) people are -again - worried. They think the developers will invest more resources into the crown store than into the game.
- (Some) people disagree with the crown "gambling" crates on a moral basis.
- (Some) people are forgetful. They've forgotten how they raged when the game was announced sub-based, then how they raged again when it became B2P.
- (Some) people are concerned that the game experience without subs/crown store expenses will feel increasingly as a 2nd-class experience as compared to the ones who sub/spend crowns. (Prime example here : crafting bag). The gap may widen in the future.

Sausage

Blacksmoke wrote: »

Because people like whining a lot

Yup. Whining and complaining is nothing new to MMORPG genre, luckily the flamewar days are over. You might not believe me but we're going forward. I gotta say I loved the Carebear war though. People whined about sub-model and now we got this, thats it basically.

Carbonised

What, the 4 discussions about this on the front page weren't enough already?

Balticthunder

Another complaining about complaining thread.

Draqone

117Dios wrote: »

Then ZOS put the Crown Crates. Gamble mechanism ....

This is the only thing I do not like about the ESO crown store. Gambling mechanisms should be clearly labelled as such and the odds of you winning should be clearly visible to those participating.

If I play roulette I know how many fields there are and I know that if I bet my $100 on a "7" I have a 1/38 chance to win.

Now, lets say I bet $100 on Crown Crates. What are my chances to win a shiny boar?

WE DO NOT KNOW.

Would you be willing to play a roulette game where the house decides how many fields it actually has?

AzuraKin

history of game fail. they left the subbed format for this crap system. anyone with a brain and experience in mmo track record knows. within an average of 3 years from inception of a crown store, the focus of the devs are on the crown store.

Sigtric

I subscribe and I throw money at the crown store. I don't mind it, overall

I do mind the, in my opinion, horrible way the crates were implemented
and the overall increase in cost of non-tangible, digital goods acquired inside it

Lately, instead of making me feel like I want to spend money, it's been feeling like they are wanting to grab an extra $10 bill when I am trying to hand them a $20

JimT722

AzuraKin wrote: »

history of game fail. they left the subbed format for this crap system. anyone with a brain and experience in mmo track record knows. within an average of 3 years from inception of a crown store, the focus of the devs are on the crown store.

I feel we may already be at this point. Prices are rising steadily, new ways of extracting money are being added, and new content doesn't seem to be coming as often as it should. All I have to really look forward to is housing as the game outside of pve doesn't work on the PS4 pro.

Soella

Because it goes way beyond reasonable.

I pay subscription. I always do, in all MMOs, no matter what are subs rewards - because they need money not only on for development, but to keep up all infrastructure, and as a specialist in this area I know how much it cost.

But for me it means I am entitled for most of content in the game. Now let see - mounts are crown store only. A lot of hair styles are crown store only. Costumes as well. Now will be some crown store only houses. Well, I have my subs crown allowance - and it was enough to buy mounts once in a while, or something else which I cannot get by in game means. Was fair for me. If I need to save 3 month to buy one mount - it is not what I consider a fair bargain for subscribers. Either it should be available through in game methods - or crown allowance for subscribers has to by higher.

kylewwefan

Problem is there's nothing I want that I can buy from the crown store. Everything has to come from gamble crates. That's what I don't like.

When they do put cool stuff in the store it's limited time and pricey af

Doctordarkspawn

Ever since ZOS has turned it's attention from paid DLC and the content therein, the balance has suffered. Alot of the game has.

Balance changes are a mess, done without logic or reason, but the monitary changes follow a specific and easily predictable pattern to make the maximum ammount of money per opportunity.

Like many games, ESO is suffering as the focus goes from the game, to the dollars it produces.

dodgehopper_ESO

Fearing change is not the same thing as disagreeing with a change. There are plenty of people who are consistent in their views, and as such it is not about fear but a difference in opinion. Some things in this game have in fact changed that at the outset were stated would never be done. I myself disagree with more than one change they've made to the game since it started, but I love the game. I've also disagreed with some design choices they went with before the game even opened, yet I still love the game. People have opinions and as consumers have preferences. I think it is unreasonable to ask that we not have opinions, which is essentially what you are saying @117Dios. I'd like to add of all the things I've disagreed with, I find the Crown Crates the most loathsome.

Change is not always good, change is not always bad. Change is just change. Sometimes the status quo is better and sometimes its not. Let people have and state their views, even if you don't agree with them.

JKorr

No one is objecting to ZOS making money. If the shineys are actually that fabulous they could sell them outright and still make money. Instead they bank on people wanting a specific item, and spending a lot of crowns attempting to get that specific item. People who are satisfied with getting any of the apex rewards from the clown crates are not really the target audience. They get any reward and stop buying. Basically the same reason they won't sell items outright. Once people get what they want, they stop buying until more shineys they want come out.

Instead of allowing people to decide on a purchase of an item they might want, they are restricting people to one choice, spending money on gambling for a chance to possibly get the item they want. Spending far more than they could get away with charging outright.

People are complaining about the cost of the elk and the motif; both items that were/are offered for outright sale, as being too overpriced. There were many threads and vids about how much people spent before they got the atronach mount they wanted, or accumulated enough gems to buy the mount they wanted outright. Except for a lucky few, the people who wanted a specific apex item from the clown crates spent a LOT more than the elk or the motif cost. Over $300.00, if I remember the one thread correctly.

Offering items for sale is business. Offering exclusive items locking behind rngesus boxes is gambling without knowing the odds, but knowing rng in this game sucks.

billp_ESO

In the old days, when you bought an airline ticket, you could bring your bags with you.

Now, they charge for checked bags. Did the price of the ticket go down? No. Only the service provided went down.

Same thing here. I paid full price for the game, and subbed too. But that doesn't mean I get the whole game.

It feels like a rip.

Khaos_Bane

I think they have a great system of generating money for the game, the crownshop ( which you don't need for P2W ), DLC purchases, and subs. They need money to keep generating content and they are appealing to all type of people.

If something has a ridiculous price on the crown store simply don't buy it and they may decide to lower the price at a later point.

People need to relax. I subscribe because I want them to have money for a good game and I like the benefits of sub.

DMuehlhausen

People will complain regardless.

If it was truly free to play and updated nearly never. ZOS you suck there is no content
Charge 100$/month updates all the time..ZOS you suck why is there this bug
Items that once were raid only show up Crown Stores...ZOS you suck..I had to work for that item over a year ago now people that want to pay for it can get it. You are *** my memories of the RAID!!!!!

Honestly though if something happens in a game, a change is made, a balance is done somebody will take a personal offense to it and will come here and make it seem like the sky is falling and everyone on the game hates it as much as they do.

Tandor

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Because people have seen other games follow the same path and die a slow and horrible death. Just take SWTOR for example, the game ultimately failed because the cash shop was draining too much development time away from actual content and the free to play option would nickel and dime people away from the game.

People have come to REALLY despise cash shops in games as they are an indicator of the kinds of practices a company is willing to stoop to.

The problem with that argument is that SWTOR hasn't failed, it's doing just fine.

NewBlacksmurf

1. This was a subscription only title on PC and it changed due to console release. (So they say)

-Ideally the platforms should have had their own respective models which later lead to our knowledge of the crown store

2. ESO Plus was created and it was proposed as the option for those who wanted to maintain access to all that they game had to offer who prefer a subscription vs B2P models

-The issue here is that those who are faithful subscribers, are priced out of the subscription model. There are literally crown only items whether they are similar in features ....they are still exclusive so it requires that the subscriber now buy crown in excess of what their sub provides.

-This was also presented for DLC but now its being utilized for access to QoL improvements only. The other glaring concern is that DLC is very sparse and now bundled so....ESO Plus continues to cause customers to question its validity and often creates distrust. Distrust specifically for Xbox one when you sub you don't get crowns until opening a ticket or making such a big fuss that other companies get involved namely Microsoft.

3. Limited time crown items/Crown Crates
-This is just adding to whats mentioned above in #2 about ESO Plus, it began the idea that ZOS is just out for people's money
-The request was for ZOS to bring back limited time items for those who may have missed them, but instead of a rotation, they added these under a crown gem which is only provided after purchasing non-desired items first either via crowns or via crown crates

4. High priced crown items / Crown sales
-The list price of some items are often at the cost that exceeds the game itself. While suggestions and argument hope to explain that this is so items don't flood the game and offset the economy, that doesn't align because pertaining to items 1 and 2.
-Sales have become frequent but there's been a lack of actual DLC...see item #2

snakester320

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Because...

- (Some) people are ignorant. They think they know better than ZOS what should and shouldn't be done as a business model.
- (Some) people are - again - ignorant. They think that every time ZOS offers something for crowns it's a rip-off.
- (Some) people are snobs. They'll genuinely feel frustrated by someone with a storm atro mount if they haven't one
- (Some) people are not aware of their own power over their own purse. They'll buy something even if they think it's too expensive or not worth it or low quality.
- (Some) people are worried. They think the game is on the slope to pay-to-win.
- (Some) people are -again - worried. They think the developers will invest more resources into the crown store than into the game.
- (Some) people disagree with the crown "gambling" crates on a moral basis.
- (Some) people are forgetful. They've forgotten how they raged when the game was announced sub-based, then how they raged again when it became B2P.
- (Some) people are concerned that the game experience without subs/crown store expenses will feel increasingly as a 2nd-class experience as compared to the ones who sub/spend crowns. (Prime example here : crafting bag). The gap may widen in the future.

LMFAO 6k crowns for motif in crown store now .... I think your the ignorant one .. enough said!!!

SilentQ

The problem with all of the arguments about the crown store is that every single item there is a vanity item and only affects ego.

"I had to spend $300 to get such and such from the crown crates!"

Does what you got affect the game in anyway? No. You did it because something in your head told you that you NEEDED it, whilst you really didn't. I'm sorry if you have a gambling addiction or think you need and even more useless than normal imaginary item still useless in a place that doesn't actually exist.

Vanity and ego drive the greed and anger for that part.

The other argument would be to ask in return, "Would you prefer they go to a subscription based system in order to access the game at all? No? Then how do you suggest they make money?"

Ackwalan

Companies have limited resources. So they use those resources where they benefit the most. If fluffy crown garbage brings in more resources then game content, more and more resources go to fluff then content.

BlazingDynamo

TL;DR

JimT722

silentq wrote: »

The problem with all of the arguments about the crown store is that every single item there is a vanity item and only affects ego.

"I had to spend $300 to get such and such from the crown crates!"

Does what you got affect the game in anyway? No. You did it because something in your head told you that you NEEDED it, whilst you really didn't. I'm sorry if you have a gambling addiction or think you need and even more useless than normal imaginary item still useless in a place that doesn't actually exist.

Vanity and ego drive the greed and anger for that part.

The other argument would be to ask in return, "Would you prefer they go to a subscription based system in order to access the game at all? No? Then how do you suggest they make money?"

Actually many preferred the subscription model and would love for it to return.

anitajoneb17_ESO

JimT722 wrote: »

Actually many preferred the subscription model and would love for it to return.

So they say, yes, but I'd like to see their actual reaction AND their actual acts if the subscription model came back. For a start, the ones who bought DLCs would ask for a refund of those...

snakester320

silentq wrote: »

The problem with all of the arguments about the crown store is that every single item there is a vanity item and only affects ego.

"I had to spend $300 to get such and such from the crown crates!"

Does what you got affect the game in anyway? No. You did it because something in your head told you that you NEEDED it, whilst you really didn't. I'm sorry if you have a gambling addiction or think you need and even more useless than normal imaginary item still useless in a place that doesn't actually exist.

Vanity and ego drive the greed and anger for that part.

The other argument would be to ask in return, "Would you prefer they go to a subscription based system in order to access the game at all? No? Then how do you suggest they make money?"

They had a sub but the game was bugged upto the eyeballs at release ( ppl won't pay for a broke game ) and ppl complained about paying a console sub plus a game sub ( which most have subs anyway because I'm sure eso is not the only game they play ) so they went f2p .. on paying a sub gladly if they could supply decent content for free not shadows of the hist crap for my $19 a month.. ppl are angry and complain when they start to move to disgusting tactics in order to raise revenue eg : crown crates purely to scam money off simple minded whales who cannot see the big picture of what it's doing to the game by supporting that concept.. 6k crowns for a motif you can get from traders and farm quite easily..
Really they have had every opportunity to offer a decent game for a decent sub but failed miserably.. like the 2 months where the game was near unplayable with no fix is that worthy of a sub..
I have no issues with direct purchases as long as there not ridiculously priced .. LMFAO 6k for a motif
Making money starts with a solid product now there scraping what's left of the scraps of it off the floor and trying to sell it off to whoever will buy it..

snakester320

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Actually many preferred the subscription model and would love for it to return.

So they say, yes, but I'd like to see their actual reaction AND their actual acts if the subscription model came back. For a start, the ones who bought DLCs would ask for a refund of those...

They can't bring back compulsive sub now .. it's not even worth mentioning that idea they burnt there bridges along time ago! ffxiv 6 million subs and they have been going for 3 years now.. bugs fixed quick PlayStation and pc play together there 2nd expan due in June that's how you make a mmo and one that makes money to offer 3 monthly content free and paid expansion yearly.. not a buggy mess with scam crates and crappy dlc ...
I almost forgot overpriced motifs:)

WhiteCoatSyndrome

The tl:dr version: because the way they used to sustain the game was much more user-friendly.

anitajoneb17_ESO

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

The tl:dr version: because the way they used to sustain the game was much more user-friendly.

But maybe the old way (that was more user friendly, I agree with that) happened to not sustain the game, or not sustain it enough :-(