Werewolf, Vampire, and Meridia Champion constellations. Also some other stuff.

Spottswoode

Regarding the balance issues between WW, vamps, and those who are neither, it occurred to me that the main balance issue with regular mortals has resulted by the gradual shift in builds and skills owing to the Champion system. Originally, the Fighter's Guild skill line was a pretty good offensive tool against vamps/ww in pvp owing to the procs and extra damage they did to them. After the Champion system was developed, the skills were falling behind in utility and were updated for STAMINA builds to benefit from their investments in the Champion constellations. The skills are still much weaker than they once were and the gradual power creep hasn't help their utility all that much. As of right now, they're pretty much useless outside of pve and only in specific pve at that.
I understand that it's the FIGHTER'S guild, but even still the overall degradation of the skill line has led to quite a balance problem. On the other side of the table, WW and vamp are somewhat lacking in overall utility (vamp less so) and changing the skills every so often hasn't really improved the situation. Changing the skills here and their really only benefits a small amount anyway.

I also particularly hate that vamps are basically magicka builds and WW are stamina and would like to see them be more open to either. Or both.

So, the best long term balance solution, imho, is to set constellations in the Champion system similar to the ones in Skyrim. (I reallllllllly hate to blatantly pull from Skyrim, but the Champions system is basically ripped from Skyrim...) Passives are all on one constellation, the constellation changes when you become ww or vamp. Points are refunded if you change.
Basically the three constellations would be one for Meridia, one for Molag Bal, and one for Hircine.

The Meridia constellation should focus on damaging and daedra, undead, and werewolves. The unlocked points in the constellation could look something like the Fighter's Guild originally did. (I particularly miss the old Evil Hunter and crossbow.) The percentage fills should focus on dealing more damage and receiving less damage from undead/daedra/ww.

The Molag Bal constellation (or whatever it's called) should focus increasing health drains, debuffing enemies that have been fed on, etc. Unlocked points should have passives that focus on feeding and draining. Percentages should give higher health restores from feeding, resource restores from feeding/draining, reduced damage from fire, etc.

The Hircine constellation should focus on increasing bleed damage, longer time in WW, and buffs while WW. health restores from feeding, etc. Unlocked points should increase Bleed damage, increase resistances while in WW, etc. At least one of them should let WW's stack bleeds and inflict bleeds on constructs. The percentages should increase WW time, increase bleed damage, reduce damage from poison, etc.

geonsocal

you know what, I'm gonna be honest with you @Spottswoode...I liked the beginning, the part about buff fighters guild skills against vamps and ww's was interesting - good luck finding a ww in cyrodiil...lots and lots of pale folks though...

if you collect "disguises", easy to fix that nasty pale skin condition...

anyways, things got a little fuzzy for me on the constellation stuff, it's friday though...

but yeah, totally agree with the idea of buffing vamps and ww's even more - there are more then a few reasons why most people won't fight as a werewolf in cyrodiil...

DigitalShibby

WW and Vamp don't need anything additional. Maybe players who don't take vamp or ww should have the option to visit a shrine for an hourly buff of some kind, but that's about it. I'm glad the WW and Vamp population has declined somewhat but ESO doesn't need to be a Twilight Saga simulator.

sneakymitchell

There is a lot more vampires but just hope u can kill them with their undeath passive so.

Tommy_The_Gun

Actually there are a lot's of WW and Vaps in cyrodiil. Most WW I see are just insanely good tanks (protection bonus + stamina recovery).
Vamps are mostly ridiculously high DPS / healers. And if there are groups of 10 vamps they just mostly unkillable (self heal & DPS combined ). Weakness of WW and Vamps can be easily negated with some CP points & jewellery enchantments.

Those don't need any buffs. In right hands they are too strong for PvP.

And tell me: Is this normal "balance" when a group of 25 PvP players cant kill 10 people running clustered and self healing to the point when nothing except well coordinated 10 ballistas + 10 destro ults are needed to do enough DMG fast enough so they wont self heal ?

PvP currently is insanely unbalanced and broken. It is hard to tell of any competitive elements when the whole skill is about running in a large group spamming one button and hoping that the other side will have more lag...

Rohamad_Ali

I'm just going to come out and say it ...

I have no idea if this would balance anything out , but it is a REALLY cool idea ! I don't remember hearing any suggestions like it and good job bringing something new to the suggestion table . I would love to at least test something like this !

Spottswoode

geonsocal wrote: »

anyways, things got a little fuzzy for me on the constellation stuff, it's friday though...

Basically, it would be another category in the Champion system. They're arranged by constellations. In fact, the signs are all constellations in the lore.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Actually there are a lot's of WW and Vaps in cyrodiil. Most WW I see are just insanely good tanks (protection bonus + stamina recovery).
Vamps are mostly ridiculously high DPS / healers. And if there are groups of 10 vamps they just mostly unkillable (self heal & DPS combined ). Weakness of WW and Vamps can be easily negated with some CP points & jewellery enchantments.

Those don't need any buffs. In right hands they are too strong for PvP.

And tell me: Is this normal "balance" when a group of 25 PvP players cant kill 10 people running clustered and self healing to the point when nothing except well coordinated 10 ballistas + 10 destro ults are needed to do enough DMG fast enough so they wont self heal ?

PvP currently is insanely unbalanced and broken. It is hard to tell of any competitive elements when the whole skill is about running in a large group spamming one button and hoping that the other side will have more lag...

PVP is not the only side I'm interested in, but we're in agreement that the current conditions are NOT balanced. Part of the reason is that they are being gradually rebalanced around the Champion system. They should, instead, be integrated into the Champion system where players have to invest in their vamp/ww. They could gain increased health drains at the cost of damage. They could get damage buffs for feeding.
Another part of the reason they're so OP now is because the Fighter's Guild line has been nerfed to oblivion. With the 'Meridia' constellation, they have a weakness they can't mitigate. Now it can't be as powerful as the Fighter's Guild once was (evil hunter proc+silver bolts proc with critical charge + evil hunter proc followed by reverse slash + evil hunter proc) but we can give people a substantial damage boost against them.

It's not going to be that cut and dry, but the current setup is only going to get messier.