Stage Zero

DocFrost72

Conversation in another thread actually gave me an idea. What if vampires that were well fed retained their mortal appearance?

We currently have 4 stages. Stages 1-4, you see are pale, red eyed, and have a variety of different buffs and debuffs on your character. What I am suggesting is to copy/past the state of life at vampirism stage 1 and create a stage more well fed than it: Stage Zero.

To clarify: in this stage you will look no different than if you had cured your vampirism. To offset this level of sated bloodlust, your vampric perks are all halted (as they already are in stage one), but you retain your fighter's guild damage weakness. Yes, you are still a vampire. Yes, expert hunter (which to my knowledge grants some form of detect undead) will spot you. But, to the average Jone or Jode, you are another mortal.

WHY IS THIS NEEDED? "You want to be a vampire but...not look like one? What gives? And doesn't that give an unfair advantage in PvP?"

There's a lot to unpack here, but let's start. The reason this is needed can vary. For me, it is highly frustrating that despite a lore supported description of fed vampires as indestinguishable from mortal men and women, people will take one look at you (especially on low graphics) and say "Oh geez, a vampire!"

The above is not just frustrating in RP, but can actually lead to complications OOC. While yes, I could tell them this, most will not budge. There's also the all important subdivision of hunters that apparently are perpetually checking any citizen that is pale with silver "just in case". That makes little sense in practice, when you start talking about requiring that people allow you to investigate them on evidence that, at least to some strains of vampirism, aren't even there.

Next up, the "Unfair advantage" argument. Here's the issue with that: costumes do that right now. Wearing many costumes, not even accounting for the disguise effect, you could conceal yourself and your armor (more important than vamp or not by far).

So, let's have a discussion. Stage 0, or no? Of no, say why not. I'd love to hear reasons.

White wabbit

No

Auricle

I would be okay with having a Stage Zero, if you had to feed every hour, like with your food buff. Otherwise, I don't think there should be a way to easily hide your state (outside of helms & disguises). Vampires are not regular folk and they shouldn't be able to walk around looking all sun-kissed and whatnot without a significant effort.

AlMcFly

I disagree, because ZOS won't let me look like this as a Werewolf:

FluffyReachWitch

This could be interesting and personally I think it would add a neat layer to playing a vampire, though I can see people getting frustrated by the maintenance required to stay mortal-looking.

Lore-wise, it actually does make me wonder how exactly Verandis pulled it off. I forget if he spoke of feeding or illusions to maintain a mortal appearance; I haven't played Rivenspire for about a year. But I would imagine it involved blood since appearance already progresses by going hungry.

When it comes to PvP though, I'm surprised that people notice vampirism so quickly. For me, it's not the appearance that gives it away, it's someone coming at me as a swarm of bats or hoisting me into the air that makes me go, "Oh dear Stendarr, I'm going to die and a vampire is going to kill me."

Danksta

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Conversation in another thread actually gave me an idea. What if vampires that were well fed retained their mortal appearance?

We currently have 4 stages. Stages 1-4, you see are pale, red eyed, and have a variety of different buffs and debuffs on your character. What I am suggesting is to copy/past the state of life at vampirism stage 1 and create a stage more well fed than it: Stage Zero.

To clarify: in this stage you will look no different than if you had cured your vampirism. To offset this level of sated bloodlust, your vampric perks are all halted (as they already are in stage one), but you retain your fighter's guild damage weakness. Yes, you are still a vampire. Yes, expert hunter (which to my knowledge grants some form of detect undead) will spot you. But, to the average Jone or Jode, you are another mortal.

WHY IS THIS NEEDED? "You want to be a vampire but...not look like one? What gives? And doesn't that give an unfair advantage in PvP?"

There's a lot to unpack here, but let's start. The reason this is needed can vary. For me, it is highly frustrating that despite a lore supported description of fed vampires as indestinguishable from mortal men and women, people will take one look at you (especially on low graphics) and say "Oh geez, a vampire!"

The above is not just frustrating in RP, but can actually lead to complications OOC. While yes, I could tell them this, most will not budge. There's also the all important subdivision of hunters that apparently are perpetually checking any citizen that is pale with silver "just in case". That makes little sense in practice, when you start talking about requiring that people allow you to investigate them on evidence that, at least to some strains of vampirism, aren't even there.

Next up, the "Unfair advantage" argument. Here's the issue with that: costumes do that right now. Wearing many costumes, not even accounting for the disguise effect, you could conceal yourself and your armor (more important than vamp or not by far).

So, let's have a discussion. Stage 0, or no? Of no, say why not. I'd love to hear reasons.

So how can you tell I'm a vamp when I'm wearing a polymorph? Or even tell what race I am?

Sigtric

AlMcFly wrote: »

I disagree, because ZOS won't let me look like this as a Werewolf:

AlMcFly

Does nobody remember what Lestat looked like when he entered Stage 4?

DocFrost72

White wabbit wrote: »

No

@White wabbit

Why?

AlMcFly wrote: »

I disagree, because ZOS won't let me look like this as a Werewolf:

"Part of the February crown store showcase: Get your wolf boy on!"

Danksta wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Conversation in another thread actually gave me an idea. What if vampires that were well fed retained their mortal appearance?

We currently have 4 stages. Stages 1-4, you see are pale, red eyed, and have a variety of different buffs and debuffs on your character. What I am suggesting is to copy/past the state of life at vampirism stage 1 and create a stage more well fed than it: Stage Zero.

To clarify: in this stage you will look no different than if you had cured your vampirism. To offset this level of sated bloodlust, your vampric perks are all halted (as they already are in stage one), but you retain your fighter's guild damage weakness. Yes, you are still a vampire. Yes, expert hunter (which to my knowledge grants some form of detect undead) will spot you. But, to the average Jone or Jode, you are another mortal.

WHY IS THIS NEEDED? "You want to be a vampire but...not look like one? What gives? And doesn't that give an unfair advantage in PvP?"

There's a lot to unpack here, but let's start. The reason this is needed can vary. For me, it is highly frustrating that despite a lore supported description of fed vampires as indestinguishable from mortal men and women, people will take one look at you (especially on low graphics) and say "Oh geez, a vampire!"

The above is not just frustrating in RP, but can actually lead to complications OOC. While yes, I could tell them this, most will not budge. There's also the all important subdivision of hunters that apparently are perpetually checking any citizen that is pale with silver "just in case". That makes little sense in practice, when you start talking about requiring that people allow you to investigate them on evidence that, at least to some strains of vampirism, aren't even there.

Next up, the "Unfair advantage" argument. Here's the issue with that: costumes do that right now. Wearing many costumes, not even accounting for the disguise effect, you could conceal yourself and your armor (more important than vamp or not by far).

So, let's have a discussion. Stage 0, or no? Of no, say why not. I'd love to hear reasons.

So how can you tell I'm a vamp when I'm wearing a polymorph? Or even tell what race I am?

Do you mean lore wise, or game wise? IIRC evil hunter still works. Lore wise... I dunno, don't know if polymorph are high level illusion spells or just MMO for sake of MMO kind of deal.

Auricle wrote: »

I would be okay with having a Stage Zero, if you had to feed every hour, like with your food buff. Otherwise, I don't think there should be a way to easily hide your state (outside of helms & disguises). Vampires are not regular folk and they shouldn't be able to walk around looking all sun-kissed and whatnot without a significant effort.

Feeding (or drinking a bloody mara) every hour seems like a totally fair tradeoff. Good idea!

Eleusian

I've always wondered this. Apparently ESO was played by a creator of the TV series (The Strain ) . Ugly wormy looking Vamps in Both spots , not exactly the cool attractive vamps of pop culture.

Metafae

If you could simply reach stage zero and become essentially non-vampire for a period of time, it would be the default for all characters to be vampire. The fact that the fighters guild passives would still work against you is good.

In PvE you'll have no downside to being a vampire given you can essentially switch it off and keep it off with Double Bloody Mara, activating the vampire buffs when needed mid-dungeon.

DocFrost72

Metafae wrote: »

If you could simply reach stage zero and become essentially non-vampire for a period of time, it would be the default for all characters to be vampire.

It already is. Stage one offers no different stats at all regarding vampirism buffs and debuffs that stage 0 would. As you said, there is no reason NOT to be a vampire in PvE as it stands, but that is because of how min/max works.

On that topic, I actually wouldn't fight against a 10% fire damage increase against all vampires at any stage above 2, to combat the issue you're referring to.

ArchMikem

Eleusian wrote: »

I've always wondered this. Apparently ESO was played by a creator of the TV series (The Strain ) . Ugly wormy looking Vamps in Both spots , not exactly the cool attractive vamps of pop culture.

If ESO turns into a version of Twilight I'm so done.

Cadbury

ArchMikem wrote: »

Eleusian wrote: »

I've always wondered this. Apparently ESO was played by a creator of the TV series (The Strain ) . Ugly wormy looking Vamps in Both spots , not exactly the cool attractive vamps of pop culture.

If ESO turns into a version of Twilight I'm so done.

Personally in terms of vampire appearance I've always been partial to something akin to Clan Nosferatu from V:TM or even Barlow from Salem's Lot.

I know it's probably not a popular opinion as vampires nowadays tend to emulate Edward Cullen or Selene from Underworld

Metafae

April 1st update, vampires now sparkle.

waterfairy

AlMcFly wrote: »

I disagree, because ZOS won't let me look like this as a Werewolf:

This + your name is awesome

Btw the pvp argument is ridiculous...as if in the laggy chaos you can spot a vamp in the zerg. I zoom in 2-3 clicks, waist high an still can't spot waldo in the crowd.

starkerealm

I've been saying for ages, having no Vampire abilities slotted should reduce your visual stage by 1. So if you're in stage 4, you look like 3; if you're in stage 1, you look mortal.

magnusthorek

If you are a vampire in this supposed "stage zero", with all benefits halted and negative effects up, why would you want to stay as a vampire?

Just cure yourself and get a friend to bite you again when you need it back. All skills progression will be at max again just needing the stage evolution.

idk

Perks are basically halted at Stage 1 vamp so stage 0 does nothing and hence no justification.

DocFrost72

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Perks are basically halted at Stage 1 vamp so stage 0 does nothing and hence no justification.

You mean besides mortal appearance, which does have RP implications as outlined above? A well fed vampire hiding among us can be fun to RP.

magnusthorek wrote: »

If you are a vampire in this supposed "stage zero", with all benefits halted and negative effects up, why would you want to stay as a vampire?

Just cure yourself and get a friend to bite you again when you need it back. All skills progression will be at max again just needing the stage evolution.

Because I'm fine with the cost-reward. I did vMA as a vamp- anything will be fine. Also, I really don't feel like paying to cure and only having the one bite availible every week, plus taking the time to do the quest to do something vamps can (lore wise) do normally. Just me.

Betheny

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Lore-wise, it actually does make me wonder how exactly Verandis pulled it off. I forget if he spoke of feeding or illusions to maintain a mortal appearance; I haven't played Rivenspire for about a year.

Pretty sure he said something about spray tans and wearing contact lenses.

DocFrost72

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Lore-wise, it actually does make me wonder how exactly Verandis pulled it off. I forget if he spoke of feeding or illusions to maintain a mortal appearance; I haven't played Rivenspire for about a year. But I would imagine it involved blood since appearance already progresses by going hungry.

The only time we see Verandis as well fed is before he begins to fast. When you encounter him as a visible vampire, it is because he has been fasting to prepare for battle with the Montclaires. He mentions this a few times, most notably when discussing how Emeric's knows of his true nature, and tells him to remain hidden when dealing with the nobles. This actually fits into the lore of the Elder Scrolls, as for whatever reason starving yourself empowers you on Nirn, and townsfolk don't take well to vampires.

Ulfgarde

Doesn't make sense to me. There are 4 stages in every Elder Scrolls game as of late, and they all have similar artistic motifs to their respective stage levels. Why change it for the sake of player appearance? Playing by "lore rules", you have already damned yourself in allegiance to one of the most sinister cults in the game. Everyone - NPCs - "should" hate you and try to murder you on sight.

I was surprised that people wouldn't turn hostile if you were a Stage 4 vampire like in Skyrim. Would be kinda cool to have more subtle disadvantages for being a vampire.

Rohamad_Ali

You're going to hurt the immersion of the players that want vampires ugly all the time . They are the biggest role players of all . They want to impose their role play expectations on all players . You must be punished for playing a vampire or they will flip their role playing wigs .

But I'm ok with it . If it makes you happy then good .

DocFrost72

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Playing by "lore rules", you have already damned yourself in allegiance to one of the most sinister cults in the game. Everyone - NPCs - "should" hate you and try to murder you on sight.

I was surprised that people wouldn't turn hostile if you were a Stage 4 vampire like in Skyrim.

Speaking of that: the reason (in eso specifically) that you won't be KOS is because there's very few ways to detect a vampire. Stages one and two, you really can't tell all that well. Stage three, hunters begin to pick up on it. Stage four, everyone knows what you are.

FWIW, I could see the argument of large cities KOSing vampires at stage 4 and turned werewolves, absolutely. But I'm far more worried about how every Tom, Richard (eso will censor the nickname), and Harry knows I'm a vamp in stage one.

Give me a method to avoid the NPCs, and I'd be fine with that. Could add more value to being a vampire.

Ulfgarde

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Playing by "lore rules", you have already damned yourself in allegiance to one of the most sinister cults in the game. Everyone - NPCs - "should" hate you and try to murder you on sight.

I was surprised that people wouldn't turn hostile if you were a Stage 4 vampire like in Skyrim.

Speaking of that: the reason (in eso specifically) that you won't be KOS is because there's very few ways to detect a vampire. Stages one and two, you really can't tell all that well. Stage three, hunters begin to pick up on it. Stage four, everyone knows what you are.

FWIW, I could see the argument of large cities KOSing vampires at stage 4 and turned werewolves, absolutely. But I'm far more worried about how every Tom, Richard (eso will censor the nickname), and Harry knows I'm a vamp in stage one.

Give me a method to avoid the NPCs, and I'd be fine with that. Could add more value to being a vampire.

Heheh. I see what you mean, though. I thought it was just funny in Skyrim to be randomly attacked, and it added something of immersive value, considering how I never feel quite immersed in any game, really. I would like to see it, though, but they really need to fix the amount of NPCs then. There's really no way to get around them since they're everywhere. Maybe some baskets like in the TG / DB questline. Whatever.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You're going to hurt the immersion of the players that want vampires ugly all the time . They are the biggest role players of all . They want to impose their role play expectations on all players . You must be punished for playing a vampire or they will flip their role playing wigs .

But I'm ok with it . If it makes you happy then good .

Not really a role-playing thing personally. I actually only care about it since, when the game came out, the only way to tell if someone was a vampire was when they had white skin or were glowing with Evil Hunter. Then, you could destroy them easy with FG abilities or run away

Considering how crazy strong vampires were on some occasions with the Bat Swarm meta then, it was something pretty valuable. Now, you have skins and such, so it takes no effort to hide it now. I personally wouldn't care if they added an option to remove vampire looks - it would only remove that nostalgic sentiment I have.

Solidsnake993

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Conversation in another thread actually gave me an idea. What if vampires that were well fed retained their mortal appearance?

We currently have 4 stages. Stages 1-4, you see are pale, red eyed, and have a variety of different buffs and debuffs on your character. What I am suggesting is to copy/past the state of life at vampirism stage 1 and create a stage more well fed than it: Stage Zero.

To clarify: in this stage you will look no different than if you had cured your vampirism. To offset this level of sated bloodlust, your vampric perks are all halted (as they already are in stage one), but you retain your fighter's guild damage weakness. Yes, you are still a vampire. Yes, expert hunter (which to my knowledge grants some form of detect undead) will spot you. But, to the average Jone or Jode, you are another mortal.

WHY IS THIS NEEDED? "You want to be a vampire but...not look like one? What gives? And doesn't that give an unfair advantage in PvP?"

There's a lot to unpack here, but let's start. The reason this is needed can vary. For me, it is highly frustrating that despite a lore supported description of fed vampires as indestinguishable from mortal men and women, people will take one look at you (especially on low graphics) and say "Oh geez, a vampire!"

The above is not just frustrating in RP, but can actually lead to complications OOC. While yes, I could tell them this, most will not budge. There's also the all important subdivision of hunters that apparently are perpetually checking any citizen that is pale with silver "just in case". That makes little sense in practice, when you start talking about requiring that people allow you to investigate them on evidence that, at least to some strains of vampirism, aren't even there.

Next up, the "Unfair advantage" argument. Here's the issue with that: costumes do that right now. Wearing many costumes, not even accounting for the disguise effect, you could conceal yourself and your armor (more important than vamp or not by far).

So, let's have a discussion. Stage 0, or no? Of no, say why not. I'd love to hear reasons.

I actually was just thinking this a few days ago but instead of adding any different stages that you need to be in they should just make it to where you can turn the pale skin off and on as you wish because there's no point in being a vampire for PvP if you have none of the passives active. Kind of like how when you put the skin on that you get from Ruins of Mazzaton your pale skin just disappears. I get tired of having white pasty flesh.

idk

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Perks are basically halted at Stage 1 vamp so stage 0 does nothing and hence no justification.

You mean besides mortal appearance, which does have RP implications as outlined above? A well fed vampire hiding among us can be fun to RP.

magnusthorek wrote: »

If you are a vampire in this supposed "stage zero", with all benefits halted and negative effects up, why would you want to stay as a vampire?

Just cure yourself and get a friend to bite you again when you need it back. All skills progression will be at max again just needing the stage evolution.

Because I'm fine with the cost-reward. I did vMA as a vamp- anything will be fine. Also, I really don't feel like paying to cure and only having the one bite availible every week, plus taking the time to do the quest to do something vamps can (lore wise) do normally. Just me.

Considering someone can RP being a vamp without actually being a vamp, it is RP after all, I do not see the point.

Additionally, as stated before, all benefits are lost when at stage one as it is so what you are proposing does not reduce things further and stage 1 already looks almost normal.

I just see it as smoke and mirrors saying all vamp benefits are removed at Stage 0 to make it look like there is a cost involved when there is not.

MornaBaine

Oh welcome to my world neophyte. I and others have literally been trying to get ZOS to see the light on this matter FOR YEARS!

Even when the game started, Lamae Bal herself did NOT look like a vampire but, as is perfectly reasonable, looked completely mortal.



And THIS has always been part of the vampire quest dialogue:



Which CLEARLY indicates that vampires are capable of looking completely mortal, just as Count Ravenwatch does and who can deliberately "hide" his vampirism...just as Heloise does even after she has become a vampire and has killed an entire family as part of the Rivenspire questline.

There is currently a bug that when you wear any of the disguises in the game (not costumes) your vampire will revert to their normal mortal appearance. We've begged them NOT to fix this bug. LOL But it's not enough. Even if it's a Skin we have to buy from the crown store, they NEED to give us an option to have vampires look mortal.

jedtb16_ESO

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Doesn't make sense to me. There are 4 stages in every Elder Scrolls game as of late, and they all have similar artistic motifs to their respective stage levels. Why change it for the sake of player appearance? Playing by "lore rules", you have already damned yourself in allegiance to one of the most sinister cults in the game. Everyone - NPCs - "should" hate you and try to murder you on sight.

I was surprised that people wouldn't turn hostile if you were a Stage 4 vampire like in Skyrim. Would be kinda cool to have more subtle disadvantages for being a vampire.

killing a parasite isn't murder.

KingYogi415

There is a stage 0. Just cure...