Vampire needs a serious buff or a total rework!

starkerealm

Sinolai wrote: »

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read your post since theres very little downside to being a vampire. I'm sure everyone else in cyrodil backs me up on that one

So... taking 25% more damage from a damage source that is used by 80% of all people in PvP and having reduce HP regeneration is no big downside?

Again, compare it to WW: You take more poison damage, and thats it. Poison damage is nearly nonexistant in comparison to fire damage.

Death recap: Poison Injection, Poison Injection, Poison Injection, Viper Sting and Poison Injection.

You forgot a Lethal Arrow, because the player who killed you was an idiot.

Bobby_V_Rockit

starkerealm wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read your post since theres very little downside to being a vampire. I'm sure everyone else in cyrodil backs me up on that one

So... taking 25% more damage from a damage source that is used by 80% of all people in PvP and having reduce HP regeneration is no big downside?

Again, compare it to WW: You take more poison damage, and thats it. Poison damage is nearly nonexistant in comparison to fire damage.

Death recap: Poison Injection, Poison Injection, Poison Injection, Viper Sting and Poison Injection.

You forgot a Lethal Arrow, because the player who killed you was an idiot.

And Velidreth

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Undeath Passive useless? Hahahahaha. What?

Not for a Magplar. It puts the breaks on crit deaths a lot, allowing for a breath of life. In the right hands it's an amazing passive.

laksikus

The Camp cc drain is very good. Better than most other ccs

Emencie

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Having either affliction should bring REAL penalties, that impact all the time.

We've seen this back at launch, and the problem with this for WW is simple.

WW do not get the benefits of being a WW at all times. So giving them a penalty at all times becomes a situation where getting the WW form becomes a self nerf.

WW cannot use synergies, they cannot res, their blocking ability is severely hampered, their self healing is magica based and no where near as powerful as other builds. They are not the best tanks or dps. And the WW ultimate is flat out not the best dps ulty you can have.

So with that in mind, becoming a WW was a situation where you can now use a sub par ultimate that will take away a ton of your utility, damage, and perhaps survivability. And now you get a permanent debuff at all times. It was a dark time for WW.

So?

If you don't like the downside of being afflicted with a supernatural curse don't become a Werewolf.

Simples.

On balance the benefits/costs of being Werewolf or Vampire should even out at being on par with being neither. As it is right now "normals" are at a distinct disadvantage, and that means both Vamp and WW need a nerf.

All The Best

So...

That is the entire reason they changed it in the first place.

What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Emencie wrote: »

So...

That is the entire reason they changed it in the first place.

What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else?

You are aware of what the RPG part of MMORPG actually stands for I assume.

Therein lies your answer.

All The Best

Chrlynsch

starkerealm wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read your post since theres very little downside to being a vampire. I'm sure everyone else in cyrodil backs me up on that one

So... taking 25% more damage from a damage source that is used by 80% of all people in PvP and having reduce HP regeneration is no big downside?

Again, compare it to WW: You take more poison damage, and thats it. Poison damage is nearly nonexistant in comparison to fire damage.

Death recap: Poison Injection, Poison Injection, Poison Injection, Viper Sting and Poison Injection.

You forgot a Lethal Arrow, because the player who killed you was an idiot.

Also 2 stamina dks morphs become poison based dots.

Just give the vamps the rest of their skill-line, three more skills.

Make drain an instant cast that continues as normal duration while you can use other abilites. Edit the damage as you see fit. Range breaks it. Think melbeth beam

Dawnblade

Vampires and werewolves should have been their own race or class, or just provided appearance / play style lines (like feeding), not additional combat skill lines that make balance even worse that it is without the extra skill lines.

Look at this thread - a number seem to think the skill lines are too weak because they aren't OP, another group thinks players like myself are gimping our characters by not taking the lines.

Maybe it is balanced, maybe it isn't - but I'd rather them err on the side of the lines being nearly useless outside of the appearance / lore / RP factor than push too far the other direction.

The last thing I want is to see a general consensus that class X 'must be a vamp / must be a ww' to perform at maximum as I have no desire to 'play' either a vamp or ww.

It's already bad enough that certain race / class / attribute combinations are significantly better than others.

Infinite12

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read your post since theres very little downside to being a vampire. I'm sure everyone else in cyrodil backs me up on that one

So... taking 25% more damage from a damage source that is used by 80% of all people in PvP and having reduce HP regeneration is no big downside?

Again, compare it to WW: You take more poison damage, and thats it. Poison damage is nearly nonexistant in comparison to fire damage.

Lol yup. Poison damage is non existent. Viper.....velidreth......poison injection ........weapon poisons.....non existent.....

WalksonGraves

I have never died from the extra 0.2 multiplier on fire damage, the negatives of vampirism are laughable compared to all the great passives and some of the most powerful skills in the game.

starkerealm

Spottswoode wrote: »

It could be different among strains. The Volkihar strain may just not need to feed. The other strains might not either. It's murky territory. Driven mad might be what the relative 'death' is here. But in any case, it's unclear.

It is very unclear. Though, it's probably not something unique to the Volkihar.

When it comes to the way the player is treated, it's interesting that Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim don't really care if you feed, but Daggerfall does. In that case, you lose the ability to rest, preventing you from recovering magicka naturally. Which goes back to the idea that vampires who are starving do suffer penalties from it, but that those penalties aren't automatically lethal.

Again, like you pointed out, the game being playable takes priority over hard and fast rules, except Daggerfall wasn't particularly shy about simply screwing you over, hard. So, that makes me think my statement's generally accurate to the setting: They don't die if they fail to feed, but starvation is still a bad situation for them.

Of course, now I'm kinda wanting to fire up Daggerfall, because I'd forgotten what a cluster**** the interface was.

starkerealm

Infinite12 wrote: »

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read your post since theres very little downside to being a vampire. I'm sure everyone else in cyrodil backs me up on that one

So... taking 25% more damage from a damage source that is used by 80% of all people in PvP and having reduce HP regeneration is no big downside?

Again, compare it to WW: You take more poison damage, and thats it. Poison damage is nearly nonexistant in comparison to fire damage.

Lol yup. Poison damage is non existent. Viper.....velidreth......poison injection ........weapon poisons.....non existent.....

Pfff, no one uses bows, for anything, ever.

MLGProPlayer

Vampire needs a visual rework if anything. I'd probably seek a bite if it wouldn't destroy my character's sexy face.

ElliottXO

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I have never died from the extra 0.2 multiplier on fire damage, the negatives of vampirism are laughable compared to all the great passives and some of the most powerful skills in the game.

Yep. People were crying so much about vampires and their downsides that ZOS made them meta. Not for the sake of the game balance or lore, but just to please them vampire fanboys.

Bobby_V_Rockit

ElliottXO wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I have never died from the extra 0.2 multiplier on fire damage, the negatives of vampirism are laughable compared to all the great passives and some of the most powerful skills in the game.

Yep. People were crying so much about vampires and their downsides that ZOS made them meta. Not for the sake of the game balance or lore, but just to please them vampire fanboys.

I gotta agree here, my first and only no death run on vCOA2 was on my vampire. No fire resist glyphs, just the undeath and unnatural resistance passives

Emencie

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

So...

That is the entire reason they changed it in the first place.

What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else?

You are aware of what the RPG part of MMORPG actually stands for I assume.

Therein lies your answer.

All The Best

Except we know that is not the case. We have already seen this. When the WW line was nothing but a debuff only the unwitting and ignorant took it. Especially because you cannot role play in WW form except at the shrine, making it worthless for RPers as well.

The result was that very few used the line. Even in its current form WW is not used often.

So let me rephrase... What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else but give you a form that is weaker than staying human, but last so short one cannot even rp with it?

Osteos

Fodore wrote: »

If you have sufficient self heals, can manage fire damage half decently and are not a werewolf, there really is no reason NOT to be vamp.

The only thing that stops me is how damn ugly they are.

leepalmer95

Emencie wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

So...

That is the entire reason they changed it in the first place.

What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else?

You are aware of what the RPG part of MMORPG actually stands for I assume.

Therein lies your answer.

All The Best

Except we know that is not the case. We have already seen this. When the WW line was nothing but a debuff only the unwitting and ignorant took it. Especially because you cannot role play in WW form except at the shrine, making it worthless for RPers as well.

The result was that very few used the line. Even in its current form WW is not used often.

So let me rephrase... What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else but give you a form that is weaker than staying human, but last so short one cannot even rp with it?

It lasts long enough if you use it as it's intended. For fighting.

What you gain when you turn into a ww.

10k Armour
30% extra stam
18% extra weapon dmg
100% more resources on heavy attack.

Strong dot on light attacks
Access to strong aoe dot which either gives aoe defile or aoe hot
Access to a fear skill, goes through block.
Access to an instant high damage skill with comparable dmg to dizzying swing... but it's instant and does 30% extra dmg to feared targets.
Access to a decent damage gap closer which extends transformation time on use.
Access to self heal, it scales of magicka but if you build for it it's can be decent, plus boost damage.

1 Morph either increases light attack dot dmg by a lot of summon 2 wolves act as meat shields and re spawn when killed.

geonsocal

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It lasts long enough if you use it as it's intended. For fighting.

What you gain when you turn into a ww.

10k Armour
30% extra stam
18% extra weapon dmg
100% more resources on heavy attack.

Strong dot on light attacks
Access to strong aoe dot which either gives aoe defile or aoe hot
Access to a fear skill, goes through block.
Access to an instant high damage skill with comparable dmg to dizzying swing... but it's instant and does 30% extra dmg to feared targets.
Access to a decent damage gap closer which extends transformation time on use.
Access to self heal, it scales of magicka but if you build for it it's can be decent, plus boost damage.

1 Morph either increases light attack dot dmg by a lot of summon 2 wolves act as meat shields and re spawn when killed.

very well put...

as far as the vamp stuff, really like the idea of it's own skill line and vamp lord form being an ultimate...

would love to fight as and against vamp lord appearance...

have 4 ww's, 2 vamps...I like drain essence as a short range single target stun (looks cool too ), mist form is obviously awesome in pvp...

whomever mentioned vamp not "feeling" as powerful as werewolf definitely had a great point...it really doesn't...

ww in pvp needs to be used very selectively, with the tankiness of the werewolf, plus being able to fear, poison, gap close and knockdown other players it can definitely help in a fight...

it also paints a big target on your back...

Emencie

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

So...

That is the entire reason they changed it in the first place.

What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else?

You are aware of what the RPG part of MMORPG actually stands for I assume.

Therein lies your answer.

All The Best

Except we know that is not the case. We have already seen this. When the WW line was nothing but a debuff only the unwitting and ignorant took it. Especially because you cannot role play in WW form except at the shrine, making it worthless for RPers as well.

The result was that very few used the line. Even in its current form WW is not used often.

So let me rephrase... What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else but give you a form that is weaker than staying human, but last so short one cannot even rp with it?

It lasts long enough if you use it as it's intended. For fighting.

What you gain when you turn into a ww.

10k Armour
30% extra stam
18% extra weapon dmg
100% more resources on heavy attack.

Strong dot on light attacks
Access to strong aoe dot which either gives aoe defile or aoe hot
Access to a fear skill, goes through block.
Access to an instant high damage skill with comparable dmg to dizzying swing... but it's instant and does 30% extra dmg to feared targets.
Access to a decent damage gap closer which extends transformation time on use.
Access to self heal, it scales of magicka but if you build for it it's can be decent, plus boost damage.

1 Morph either increases light attack dot dmg by a lot of summon 2 wolves act as meat shields and re spawn when killed.

Which is all still weaker than simply staying human...

There is a reason trial teams, vet soloers, serious PvE or PvP teams are not using WW. But almost all of them are using vamp. It's because WW is a 22 skill point ultimate which is flat out weaker than simply staying human form with a better ultimate.

Either way you are off the topic I was responding to. That WW definitely does not need a need.

Kendaric

geonsocal wrote: »

whomever mentioned vamp not "feeling" as powerful as werewolf definitely had a great point...it really doesn't...

More importantly it doesn't feel like a vampire at all. There is no incentive to feed and no reaction from NPCs (aside from very few quest NPCs) regardless of the stage you're in.

What I'd like to see:

Integration of stage 3 & 4 vampires (as well as transformed werewolves) into the justice system by means of a mechanic similiar to how trespassing works in TG areas. This would also provide an incentive to feed before entering civilized areas.

Slight resistance to poison/disease damage in all stages

Slight boost to health regeneration for 30 minutes after feeding

More active skills for the skill line like summoning a giant bat to fight alongside you similiar to how werewolves can get two wolves.

Chrlynsch

Emencie wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

So...

That is the entire reason they changed it in the first place.

What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else?

You are aware of what the RPG part of MMORPG actually stands for I assume.

Therein lies your answer.

All The Best

Except we know that is not the case. We have already seen this. When the WW line was nothing but a debuff only the unwitting and ignorant took it. Especially because you cannot role play in WW form except at the shrine, making it worthless for RPers as well.

The result was that very few used the line. Even in its current form WW is not used often.

So let me rephrase... What is the point of a skill line you have to unlock which debuffs you and does nothing else but give you a form that is weaker than staying human, but last so short one cannot even rp with it?

It lasts long enough if you use it as it's intended. For fighting.

What you gain when you turn into a ww.

10k Armour
30% extra stam
18% extra weapon dmg
100% more resources on heavy attack.

Strong dot on light attacks
Access to strong aoe dot which either gives aoe defile or aoe hot
Access to a fear skill, goes through block.
Access to an instant high damage skill with comparable dmg to dizzying swing... but it's instant and does 30% extra dmg to feared targets.
Access to a decent damage gap closer which extends transformation time on use.
Access to self heal, it scales of magicka but if you build for it it's can be decent, plus boost damage.

1 Morph either increases light attack dot dmg by a lot of summon 2 wolves act as meat shields and re spawn when killed.

Which is all still weaker than simply staying human...

There is a reason trial teams, vet soloers, serious PvE or PvP teams are not using WW. But almost all of them are using vamp. It's because WW is a 22 skill point ultimate which is flat out weaker than simply staying human form with a better ultimate.

Either way you are off the topic I was responding to. That WW definitely does not need a need.

Very well put, on werewolf perks too many players look at these passives and think "better than Vamp" they forget to take away all the things lost during transformation, seige, rezzing, all weapon passives and most class passives, purges, no evasion, snare removal or synergies, dominate stat heal is gone as well.

Vamps just need 3 more unique skills.

TheDoomsdayMonster

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, Vampire is just a weak thing.
Compare it to werewolfs, you can solo most PvE content easy as a WW, even big monsters, its usefull in PvP, you often see whole groups of Werewolfs decimating enemy forces with their strong attacks and overall tankiness, its overall a skillline you use all the time.

Now look at Vampire... ehm... I guess Mist form is ok if you got jumped and the fast sneaking can be good for PvP or PvE is you want to steal stuff, but other than that? The blood sucking spell is a medicore damage spell, which is also a channel over 3 seconds to do damage that instant cast spells do already, the stun is useless in PvP, and it even slows you down.
The Ultimate is kinda OK, but lets be honest, every class has Ultimate abilities that every sane person would choose over Bat-Swarm in every possible situation.

So in the end, what do you get from being a Vampire? An unreliable escape spell, faster sneaking and a bit of regeneration and a little damage reduction that only kicks in when you are in execute range anyway...

The Vampire Skillline needs to be reworked from 0.

Bullcrap as pertains the bolded part...

Now I will admit that if you are facing a stam player with a large resource pool who can breakout whenever they want, then you might undervalue that stun, but make no mistake that the stun is very powerful (its very effective against magicka builds) and the ability as a whole is very good...

The damage from Invigorating Drain cannot be dodged; I love it against those Nightblades that seemingly dodge 80% of the attacks aimed at them...

The stun goes right through block...

It heals you and can proc abilities that are based on healing crits...

It regens 15 Ultimate every use (assumming you hold it for all 3 ticks of damage over time)...

If you are in stage 4 vampirsm, its very cheap to cast...


I personally love it and its almost always on my dps bar (the only exception is when I am in ranged DPS mode)...

But to each his own...

TheDoomsdayMonster

Jeremy wrote: »

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, Vampire is just a weak thing.
Compare it to werewolfs, you can solo most PvE content easy as a WW, even big monsters, its usefull in PvP, you often see whole groups of Werewolfs decimating enemy forces with their strong attacks and overall tankiness, its overall a skillline you use all the time.

Now look at Vampire... ehm... I guess Mist form is ok if you got jumped and the fast sneaking can be good for PvP or PvE is you want to steal stuff, but other than that? The blood sucking spell is a medicore damage spell, which is also a channel over 3 seconds to do damage that instant cast spells do already, the stun is useless in PvP, and it even slows you down.
The Ultimate is kinda OK, but lets be honest, every class has Ultimate abilities that every sane person would choose over Bat-Swarm in every possible situation.

So in the end, what do you get from being a Vampire? An unreliable escape spell, faster sneaking and a bit of regeneration and a little damage reduction that only kicks in when you are in execute range anyway...

The Vampire Skillline needs to be reworked from 0.

As a vampire myself - I have to admit you summed up its attributes quite nicely in your last paragraph. I have never been one to jump on the band wagon that Vampire is some greatly over-powered beast. It isn't. Its improvements are modest at best. But I still believe they outweigh the negatives. And while I don't agree with you that the vampire is a weak thing desperately in need of a re-work - I do find that the details of your argument are accurate and you provide a fair context to the debate. We just reach different conclusions is all.

You just have to decide - is Mist Form (and I agree with you that it is at times unreliable and not even close to being over-powered as some others have suggested), faster sneaking, a bit of regeneration and a little damage reduction when you are low on life worth taking the hit on health recovery and fire damage. I believe that it is. Others don't. And that's fine.

100% Agreed...

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Like the vampire this thread seems to be eternal and just wont die.