Updating PvP and PvE Separatly

Rokushoh

Would it affect the game if we just updated PvE and PvP separatly? Why don't restraints/conditions get applied "If affected by Battle Spirit".

Shader_Shibes

Too much like hard work for ZOS, they will take the easy route.

WhiteMage

You'd get to the point where you'd need two combat leads eventually, if you did that. Instead, they need to be greatly adjusted together in one fell swoop. PvE and PvP are inextricably intertwined, as they should be, and need to be treated as such. One adjustment cannot be made unilaterally to one aspect without proper considerations given to the other.

Not sure how people can forget this, tbh.

nordsavage

WhiteMage wrote: »

You'd get to the point where you'd need two combat leads eventually, if you did that. Instead, they need to be greatly adjusted together in one fell swoop. PvE and PvP are inextricably intertwined, as they should be, and need to be treated as such. One adjustment cannot be made unilaterally to one aspect without proper considerations given to the other.

Not sure how people can forget this, tbh.

@WhiteMage Elaborate your point. Why can they not be separated when many games adjust their PvP aspects and PvE aspects separately and successfully. So many bad changes in this game come from PvP effecting PvE because they do not separate the two enough. I agree with @Shader_Shibes that they just take the easy route.

JD2013

I would actually quite welcome a complete separation of PVE and PVP.

However, given that they do 4 large (ish) updates a year, and now holiday festivals etcetera, I wonder if they would have the time to do this.

Maybe hire a PVE combat lead too and work together? It would take a lot of co-ordination.

Pirhana7_ESO

JD2013 wrote: »

I would actually quite welcome a complete separation of PVE and PVP.

However, given that they do 4 large (ish) updates a year, and now holiday festivals etcetera, I wonder if they would have the time to do this.

Maybe hire a PVE combat lead too and work together? It would take a lot of co-ordination.

Because this is a mixed PVP and PVE game where you do both and both are effected by each other. PVE is basically leveling up your character and training yourself for the alliance war endgame. It would make zero sense to have PVE different and then mess up what you thought your character power and abilities were when you try to fight an enemy player. That would be like taking a drivers test with different road rules than you will have after you pass....

JKorr

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

I would actually quite welcome a complete separation of PVE and PVP.

However, given that they do 4 large (ish) updates a year, and now holiday festivals etcetera, I wonder if they would have the time to do this.

Maybe hire a PVE combat lead too and work together? It would take a lot of co-ordination.

Because this is a mixed PVP and PVE game where you do both and both are effected by each other. PVE is basically leveling up your character and training yourself for the alliance war endgame. It would make zero sense to have PVE different and then mess up what you thought your character power and abilities were when you try to fight an enemy player. That would be like taking a drivers test with different road rules than you will have after you pass....

You mean like the difference between a commercial or school bus driver's test, and the one for driving a passenger vehicle? Or a motorcycle and a passenger car?

Not everyone wants to or plans to do pvp. I don't care who's sitting on the throne. Hearing about how guilds and groups make arrangements for someone to be emperor, then change to another person, or set up rotations to kill each other for points *really* does nothing to pique my interest in even attempting pvp. I don't *want* to fight an enemy player. The time it takes for an enemy player to kill me takes time out of the story content I *do* want to do. Congratulations. U R teh bestest pvper evah. Now please get out of my way and let me play the story, m''kay?

Why should the cries for nerfs and changes and buffs and whatever the current issues are about pvp need to touch anything I'm doing? Some aspect of game mechanics might not be the ultimate best fit for pvp because players will find ways to exploit and abuse anything to be teh bestest. That extra .0001% of dps means the world. The players who want to do pve do want to win and beat the content, but, imo, the ultra competitive urge to butcher everything then teabag it isn't there. Why should gear and items be nerfed for pve because the pvp aspect of them doesn't work perfectly?

Danksta

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

I would actually quite welcome a complete separation of PVE and PVP.

However, given that they do 4 large (ish) updates a year, and now holiday festivals etcetera, I wonder if they would have the time to do this.

Maybe hire a PVE combat lead too and work together? It would take a lot of co-ordination.

Because this is a mixed PVP and PVE game where you do both and both are effected by each other. PVE is basically leveling up your character and training yourself for the alliance war endgame. It would make zero sense to have PVE different and then mess up what you thought your character power and abilities were when you try to fight an enemy player. That would be like taking a drivers test with different road rules than you will have after you pass....

I'll let you in on a little secret. Skills already vary in effectiveness between PvP and PvE. If you think you're going to go into Cyrodiil with your PvE gear and skills and think you'll be cleaning up players like you do mobs you're going to be unpleasantly surprised.

Betheny

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

PVE is basically leveling up your character and training yourself for the alliance war endgame.

Most players don't PVP or have like once or twice and never again or just pop in rarely, only a small number of the player base really PVP.

PVE is the main game here.

Rokushoh

Honestly that's the problem. They update the damn game together, and other than fixing balance, it breaks it. No proc set criticals almost makes Impenetrable useless, lowering the costs of item. Not only that, it also lowers PvE DPSes pushing us back to the first 4 DLC Era where 5 VO 5 TBS for Stam and Kena (or something similar for Magicka). It's just aggravating.

Darkonflare15

Rokushoh wrote: »

Honestly that's the problem. They update the damn game together, and other than fixing balance, it breaks it. No proc set criticals almost makes Impenetrable useless, lowering the costs of item. Not only that, it also lowers PvE DPSes pushing us back to the first 4 DLC Era where 5 VO 5 TBS for Stam and Kena (or something similar for Magicka). It's just aggravating.

First of all, how does the changes break balance when players were complaing that the game was not balance in the first place. Seems like players have a skewed view on what balance is. Second, most substain damages comes from skills and basic attacks. Since these still crit there will always be a need from impenetrable. Proc sets still do crazy damage with out crits. It is still just extra damage tacked on with all the other damage you are doing. They will still have a use.

Rokushoh

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Rokushoh wrote: »

Honestly that's the problem. They update the damn game together, and other than fixing balance, it breaks it. No proc set criticals almost makes Impenetrable useless, lowering the costs of item. Not only that, it also lowers PvE DPSes pushing us back to the first 4 DLC Era where 5 VO 5 TBS for Stam and Kena (or something similar for Magicka). It's just aggravating.

First of all, how does the changes break balance when players were complaing that the game was not balance in the first place. Seems like players have a skewed view on what balance is. Second, most substain damages comes from skills and basic attacks. Since these still crit there will always be a need from impenetrable. Proc sets still do crazy damage with out crits. It is still just extra damage tacked on with all the other damage you are doing. They will still have a use.

You seem to forget that it's gonna make our (in PvE) Mundus stones completely useless for the proc sets. There's no crit. Why use Thief to get more crit chance? No crit. Why use Shadow to get more crit damage? No crit. I said it doesn't FIX balance, but it breaks it, I meant it breaks it even more than it already is. And if we're speaking balance, it's not biased to PvE or PvP, but both.

Vurian97

Part of the balancing problems is they have to balance PvP content with the PvE content due to NPC's being part of PvP content. Therefore, PvE content has an effect in PvP.

Biro123

JKorr wrote: »

Why should the cries for nerfs and changes and buffs and whatever the current issues are about pvp need to touch anything I'm doing? Some aspect of game mechanics might not be the ultimate best fit for pvp because players will find ways to exploit and abuse anything to be teh bestest. That extra .0001% of dps means the world. The players who want to do pve do want to win and beat the content, but, imo, the ultra competitive urge to butcher everything then teabag it isn't there. Why should gear and items be nerfed for pve because the pvp aspect of them doesn't work perfectly?

How about we re-word this a little..?

JKorr wrote: »

Why should the requests for balance for issues spotted in PVP need to touch anything I'm doing? Some aspect of game mechanics might not be balanced - but only get spotted in PVP because mobs will never mention it. That extra .0001% of dps doesn't make the blindest bit of difference. The players who want to do pvp do want to win and beat the opposition, but get really sick of being painted as 'ultra-competitive teabaggers'.. How about I take the worst of the PVE community and say that for the PVPer, the ultra-competitive urge to get the max DPS score and blame/votekick those who are underperforming isn't there. Why should gear and items be balanced for pve because their problems are spotted first in the pvp aspect?

Why do PVE-ers NOT want Balance?

Why do PVE-ers constantly whine and complain against nerfs... whats the alternative? Buff EVERY other skill to compensate? Then up the PVE difficulty because its now too easy? Perhaps balance by a few small nerfs has much less of an inpact on your beloved PVE than the alternative..? I can't see that the Devs would ever not want PVE to be balanced.

nordsavage

JKorr wrote: »

Why do PVE-ers NOT want Balance?

Why do PVE-ers constantly whine and complain against nerfs... whats the alternative? Buff EVERY other skill to compensate? Then up the PVE difficulty because its now too easy? Perhaps balance by a few small nerfs has much less of an inpact on your beloved PVE than the alternative..? I can't see that the Devs would ever not want PVE to be balanced.

These crit changes do not balance out PvE in the least bit. They do not solve the PvP proc problem. What it does do is take 1/3 of our gear setup and remove a factor tied to champion, abilites, class and racial passives, buffs, mundus boons, group fight dynamics, certain crafted sets, gear traits, unique builds, alchemy, favorable outcomes of vet and HM trials (you'd know that if you ran them, do you even vet Maw?) and any hope low rate pugs have of keeping up with guys like me.

WhiteMage

nordsavage wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

You'd get to the point where you'd need two combat leads eventually, if you did that. Instead, they need to be greatly adjusted together in one fell swoop. PvE and PvP are inextricably intertwined, as they should be, and need to be treated as such. One adjustment cannot be made unilaterally to one aspect without proper considerations given to the other.

Not sure how people can forget this, tbh.

@WhiteMage Elaborate your point. Why can they not be separated when many games adjust their PvP aspects and PvE aspects separately and successfully. So many bad changes in this game come from PvP effecting PvE because they do not separate the two enough. I agree with @Shader_Shibes that they just take the easy route.

It's complicated. Let's see... there are a number of assumptions you have to operate under about the game in general. First, if PvP and PvE do not use the same skills and rule book (barring minor inconsistencies) you might as well be playing a different game, and the appeal of this game is that it is this game, so both of these "partitions" that we have devised need to be as consistent as possible. The idea to strive for here is where PvP and PvE both use the same mindset from the player for optimum success. If it were, that would be truly masterful work on the part of the developers. (We don't see that in ESO. For example, in PvE, most players forsake defense while that is suicide in PvP.)

If balancing were to be done for PvP and PvE independently, you would in effect be doubling the workload of the combat team, on top of another department who would ensure the changes would apply when going to Cyrodiil or starting a duel. By suggesting that they can be balanced separately, you imply that PvE needs different changes than PvP does, and making these changes would diverge the two combats systems from each other till they qualified as two different games.

I'm not saying any of your justifications are wrong, but they do have far-reaching implications, which the developers would have to weigh. I do think balancing them separately is the wrong path to take in the long-run, as far as preserving the integrity of the game goes, and the easy way out for the combat team which would make things difficult for a different team who would have to design a system to modify skills based on location and duels. Currently, their band-aid fix of battlespirit truly is a band-aid: it is a modifier applied to all players in order to imitate a rule book change, one that is easy to apply but isn't the proper way to solve the problem. That it exists in this form makes plain that it wasn't originally intended in the first place.

It may be a stretch, but if battlespirit ever increases in potency, we can say that they are favoring the current trajectory of PvE power creep at the expense of overall balance. Should it decrease in potency... well, that would be a great sign for the game in general, though it signals a paradigm shift in PvE's meta.

Rokushoh

Nord is right. People who do pick up groups are also getting the hammer because like Nord said, they're taking out some sets that greatly help the DPS. In no point is DPS easy. Its doing the damage while surviving. Removing crucial sets to champion points, boons, yadada, does not balance anything in the slightest.

raglau

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

I would actually quite welcome a complete separation of PVE and PVP.

However, given that they do 4 large (ish) updates a year, and now holiday festivals etcetera, I wonder if they would have the time to do this.

Maybe hire a PVE combat lead too and work together? It would take a lot of co-ordination.

Because this is a mixed PVP and PVE game where you do both and both are effected by each other. PVE is basically leveling up your character and training yourself for the alliance war endgame. .

PvP is a very minor part of this particular game and the uptake has not been exactly great, most people level up to get to PvE end-game, or simply via the joy of playing, aka TES. That's one reason PvP in ESO feels like an after thought (unfortunately), there simply are not that many PvP customers within the player base, so from a business perspective it's simply no big deal if those players are dissatisfied.

The thing is that the two sets of requirements placed upon a game by PvP and PvE players are markedly different and I think all games struggle to satisfactorily answer them both within the same game. It's always something of a compromise between meeting both sets of requirements. The games where I have seen it best done however, do tend to seperate the PvE and PvP paths far more than in ESO. I think ZOS tried something new in ESO, quite laudible really, but we're now seeing the fallout of this attempt to please all of the people all of the time, and the end result is a product that doesn't please any of the people entirely.

I'll add that I support the nerfing of the proc-sets from a PvE perspective anyway, they are gimmicky and unnecessary for most content IME. And if they are required, then the content ought to not be designed in such a way that RNG has to become a player mandate. ZOS focussing on the proc-sets has had a knock on effect to build and gear diversity, which has served to make PvE become rather bland in itself.

Rokushoh

Well it's not really RNG when a chance is over 10% and you have 2-3 abilities able to proc it with over 2 enemy targets.