ZOS, We all know that proc sets needed adjustments but this is not the way to do it.[Maths included]

susmitds

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

We all know that certain proc sets were outperforming actual skill in PvP. As such they seriously needed changes, and I wholeheartedly support the initiative. But a mathematical breakdown of how it affects the two spheres of the game shows otherwise.


Let's first focus on the affect of the this change in PvP.

Currently, one of the most overpowered setup in PvP is a Stamina Sorcerer/DK using 5 Black Rose/5 Viper/2 Tremorscale. This setup gives you like 28% critical hit chance and around 55% critical hit damage. Now the average PvPer has 2000-2700 critical hit resistance. On the mean of 2350, it's 35% critical hit damage reduction. So only (28*(55-20))/100^2% or 5.6% of proc damage comes from critical hit damage. That means even after the change, we will see proc sets like Viper/Tremoscale do 94.4% of its current damage after the change. That's way too high and still guarantees 7-8k damage every 4 seconds ON TOP OF OTHER SKILLS.

Now let's concentrate on its effect on PvE.

Average PvErs have 80%+ critical hit chance with 100%+ critical hit damage fully buffed. Now that means 80%+ of all damage dealt is critical damage without even Major Force. That means now monster sets will deal 25% of their current damage in PvE. That's huge nerf to PvE.


Now that the maths have been summed up, let's discuss the effects.

• This change hardly changes the root problem in PvP - free damage. 7k damage (even without critical hit) every 4 seconds with additional CC is huge in PvP terms.
• This change makes many of monster sets not worthwhile in PvE.
• It kills all variety in PvE gear. All stamina DPS will now run 5 Vicious Ophidian, 5 any of the select few options like TBS, NMG, vMA weapons. Without the damage of proc sets, the last 2 pieces of Vicious Ophidian are too good to give up. Magicka DPS gear will also be in a similar state.
• It makes vMA weapons more necessary, especially for stamina DPS. Previously without vMA weapons, you could run two 5-piece sets and a monster set. With the massive PvE damage nerf to monster sets, vMA weapons easily become way more worthy of the last two free slots.
• Few thousand damage per second is hardly overpowered against bosses with millions of health.
• It hits StamNB, MagNB and Stamplar PvE DPS the hardest due to their added critical hit damage and chance. Stamplars and StamNBs have already deal the lowest DPS among other stamina classes while it is the same case for MagNB in the magicka bracket.
• High crit builds already have little place in PvP due to impenetrable gear and traits. This makes it worse for them in PvP and also decreases their effectiveness in PvE.
• Not all proc sets are about burst. This change kills lots of builds. R.I.P. Toxic Venom, Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, Twin Sisters, Vicecannon, Night Terror, Eternal Hunt, Morihaus, tons of other cliche sets. R.I.P MagickaNB Saptank, you will be missed.
• Now, pretty only direct debuffs and stat boosting sets are the only choice now.

The list could go on but I think we have already established how this change hardly fixes the core issues while killing tons of potential builds and variety.

As such, I would ZOS please rethink this change. Viper is a set that needs total remake into a DoT set of some kind. Tremorscale should not even work in PvP in the first place. All proc sets could use a single global cooldown with lesser proc chance and damage in PvP. But not allowing it to crit hardly changes anything, as established earlier. I really wish ZOS revises their way of nerfing these gear.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_RichLambert , @Wrobel , @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_Finn

Paneross

Lulz since when do the majority players have a 80%+ crit chance. More like very few have that.

Unsent.Soul

Average pve players have 80%+ crit? Where did this data come from? I've been away from dungeons/trials for a few weeks (console) but I can't possibly see how you got that information from.

susmitds

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Average pve players have 80%+ crit? Where did this data come from? I've been away from dungeons/trials for a few weeks (console) but I can't possibly see how you got that information from.

Thief gives you 15.7%, Major+ Minor Crit passive gives 13%, CP gives 12%, Armor passives give like 12%. You have base 20%. That's like 75% right there. Khajiit gives 8% more. Some weapons increase critical hit chance like daggers and bows. Then there are class passives. Also if using DW, BiS using 1 sharpened, 1 precise. You are crossing 90% at this point and that's without gear

Sigtric

all of this mathing it out is pretty much pointless until we have the entirety of the patch notes and the PTS

Akimbro

Yup the problem isn't in the crit of the proc set damage, it's in the stacking of multiple proc sets together. This will hardly change the damage done to someone wearing full impen.

Unsent.Soul

susmitds wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Average pve players have 80%+ crit? Where did this data come from? I've been away from dungeons/trials for a few weeks (console) but I can't possibly see how you got that information from.

Thief gives you 15.7%, Major+ Minor Crit passive gives 13%, CP gives 12%, Armor passives give like 12%. You have base 20%. That's like 75% right there. Khajiit gives 8% more. Some weapons increase critical hit chance like daggers and bows. Then there are class passives. Also if using DW, BiS using 1 sharpened, 1 precise. You are crossing 90% at this point and that's without gear

Once again, this doesn't scream average players....

susmitds

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Average pve players have 80%+ crit? Where did this data come from? I've been away from dungeons/trials for a few weeks (console) but I can't possibly see how you got that information from.

Thief gives you 15.7%, Major+ Minor Crit passive gives 13%, CP gives 12%, Armor passives give like 12%. You have base 20%. That's like 75% right there. Khajiit gives 8% more. Some weapons increase critical hit chance like daggers and bows. Then there are class passives. Also if using DW, BiS using 1 sharpened, 1 precise. You are crossing 90% at this point and that's without gear

Once again, this doesn't scream average players....

I should have probably mentioned stamina DPS. It is pretty average among mid-tier Stamina DPS with proper gear to cross 80% fully buffed.

Auricle

As someone who mains a magNB, and already struggles with being slightly less effective than sorcs or templars, these proposed changes have me a little nervous. I've been burned before... *stares longingly at crafting-station-parked magDK*

SnubbS

I play the StamDK Blackrose, Viper & Tremor/Veli build a lot. I have 40% Crit with it, and every decent player who plays it will also have 40%. There's no real point to run anything apart from Theif on that build. I would also argue that that this build (While being OP as hell) is not the build that annoys cyrodiil the most. In my view, that honor goes to the Gankblade build with Viper&Veli.

In my opinion, this hurts the BR/Viper/Tremor build more because it actually does rely on RNG crits to hit high bursts of damage -- that's really the only way to increase the dmg of the proc sets. The gank build doesn't have that particular problem. They're hitting 6-7k Vipers & 9-10k Velis because of Minor Berzerk & Incap Dmg buff. I definitely feel like they should keep procs from being buffed by those two sources.

Rohamad_Ali

Maybe they just have no way to separate armor sets in PvP from PVE . Maybe this was the least nerf they could pull off without gutting the proc suit system .

Toc de Malsvi

susmitds wrote: »

Currently, one of the most overpowered setup in PvP is a Stamina Sorcerer/DK using 5 Black Rose/5 Viper/2 Tremorscale. This setup gives you like 28% critical hit chance and around 55% critical hit damage. Now the average PvPer has 2000-2700 critical hit resistance. On the mean of 2350, it's 35% critical hit damage reduction. So only (28*(55-20))/100^2% or 5.6% of proc damage comes from critical hit damage. That means even after the change, we will see proc sets like Viper/Tremoscale do 94.4% of its current damage after the change. That's way too high and still guarantees 7-8k damage every 4 seconds ON TOP OF OTHER SKILLS.

You screwed up your math big time on this (28*(55-20))/100^2 does not equal 0.056 or even 5.6 but rather 0.098. Which is more correctly reflected as 9.8%. Which does exactly as it espouses to do and is a small nerf to proc set spike damage.

Dev

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Maybe they just have no way to separate armor sets in PvP from PVE . Maybe this was the least nerf they could pull off without gutting the proc suit system .

the existance of Battle Spirit is proof that there were better options.

what we are getting is simple laziness and poor decision making.

Dagoth_Rac

Paneross wrote: »

Lulz since when do the majority players have a 80%+ crit chance. More like very few have that.

10% base
12% CP
17% Thief
10%-ish from armor
10% from Major buff
3% from Minor buff
7% from Precise
10% from Daggers

That is 79% before set bonuses. Throw in the critical bonuses on popular sets like Vicious Ophidian, Infallible Aether, Hundings, Julianos, Night Mothers Gaze, Mothers Sorrow, Leviathan, etc., etc., and 80% crit is downright easy to reach, especially for stamina builds.

stevepdodson_ESO888

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Maybe they just have no way to separate armor sets in PvP from PVE . Maybe this was the least nerf they could pull off without gutting the proc suit system .

and yet they have sets that do damage to "players only" (e.g Vicious Death, Marksman)...so they already have a way to separate them

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

This post is to let you know that we've felt it necessary to close this thread. The reason being that there is already a more active thread on the topic that can be found here. Please feel free to repost your findings there if you'd like, as it'll be much easier to track everyone's feedback on the matter when it is all focused on few threads rather than spread out in many.

Thank you for understanding!