Thoughts on how ZOS's proc set changes will affect PVP? (No longer can crit).

bubbygink

I think ZOS is way off the mark with this change. Hilariously, they nerfed the proc sets for PVE (where people actually liked them) while not addressing the problems PVPers face with proc sets whatsoever. You can't crit shields anyway and with impen stacking crit isn't nearly as important in PVP. Making proc sets uncritable does very little to reduce their PVP burst and effectiveness in my opinion. In fact, a shield stacking Mag Sorc or Magblade won't even feel a difference at all until their shields go down. Unless the proc sets are nerfed individually proc sets will still rule cyrodill.


I still think making them dots would have been the best solution. Then the dps stays them same for pve while not allowing for the crazy, instagib burst in PVP.

Paneross

It will be AWESOME!

Lexxypwns

Its not enough, viper + undaunted proc set is still gonna be BiS for pvp, this closes the margin, but not all the way

bubbygink

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Its not enough, viper + undaunted proc set is still gonna be BiS for pvp, this closes the margin, but not all the way

Agreed. Taking away the crit does little to address the problem in my opinion. You can still stack 10k or more worth of procs instantly. I run full impen and use annulment + healing ward. So this change hardly even does anything for me. Proc sets will still be just as effective against me as they were before.

Leandor

I do agree with the OP that this will not be enough to resolve the issue. But as said in the other threads, it is a first step in reducing burst.

If they overdo the changes, we are back to unkillable players because of too much healing.

It HAS to be a step by step process and I am glad that they finally do this instead of sledge hammer changes.

Solariken

This is a really great step in my opinion. It may actually prove to balance procs really well in PvP, especially in cases where multiple procs are stacked.

The only set that I feel needs a mechanic change is Viper - it will still be too much burst on top of an Incap. They could easily make it a 4s DOT and DPS will remain the same.

I don't understand the rage from PvE players on this though - it just leads me to believe the procs were OP in PvE too. Although I already knew they were - one-shotting vMA mobs probably isn't exactly intended.

Xvorg

Well, they shouldn't have crit from the very beginning, nevertheless, it doesn't solve the problem of the lazy playing style some people here likes so much.

My option was the X button, so you activated the proc like any other synergy.

Waffennacht

I think it helps greatly. The only time i see a proc in recap it's a crit, and with 2.6k impen and 26k resist a recap of 12k from selene means MASSIVE crit modifier, meaning, I'll never seet that BS again.

No more 11k skoria for me, but well worth the trade.

Paraflex

It's a step in the right direction that's for sure.

Pros

Hurts stacking sets because now a 5 widow maker 3 viper 2 tremer build won't crit on all three procs(big dps drop)
Less overall dps on all sets
Shifts the meta now so we'll see other builds
Healing will be lessened
Resources management is be lessened

Cons

PvE impacted but so what deal with it.
PvP players typical play with a lot of impen so will it be enough? (Global cool down needed?)
Makes certain sets completely useless in PvP now

Overall it's a good change hopefully it does the trick.... enjoy the next few months on your proc set training wheels because your skill won't change.

GrumpyDuckling

Where did you find this new info about proc set changes?

Jaronking

This does crap for pvp i'll rather they make them dots that would had been so simpler but nahh lets do something stupid and not make them crit,which barely affects pvp.

Rohamad_Ali

We can't see the whole picture yet . There's a balance update coming as well and Wrobel specifically stated he wanted to make health a more needed stat in that update . Who knows what in oblivion is coming with this sneak peek , honestly .

BlackMadara

This was very limited information and I believe that this particular change was directed to PVE, as well as bringing the proc sets in line with how they interacted with other stats (they don't scale off any stat but crit). ZOS did mention that they were looking into making some procs dots. We will see. Just have to wait.

Waffennacht

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

We can't see the whole picture yet . There's a balance update coming as well and Wrobel specifically stated he wanted to make health a more needed stat in that update . Who knows what in oblivion is coming with this sneak peek , honestly .

This is a really good point. Really good, if the over all dynamics of damage/heals change as a result of the balancing, this crit change may be the least impactful.

XoxHANNIBALxoX

At first i hated being killed by proc sets but i L2P basically and its now amusing when i dont die instantly and they seemed all confused lol

Own

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Its not enough, viper + undaunted proc set is still gonna be BiS for pvp, this closes the margin, but not all the way

this was my first thought.

bubbygink

I agree with what those are saying about waiting to see the whole picture. Perhaps certain proc sets will be nerfed directly (e.g. viper cooldown increases to 8 seconds) or indirectly (e.g. you can no longer "taunt" a real player) in other ways. And i sincerely hope this is the case. However, @ZOS_RichLambert 's post seemed to indicate that making them "non-critable" was ZOS's over-arching solution to the PVP proc set problem. If the sets are going to be adjusted individually, then why even create this no-crit mechanic? I think ZOS intends the no-crit mechanic to be the fix and I just don't thing this addresses the problem at all. I haven't seen one person on forums suggest such a fix. I just don't get where ZOS pulled this idea from.

FriedEggSandwich

Personally I just think it's easier to code out crits than it is to code out the procs from procs. Path of least resistance, easy way out, money saving measures and all that.

Waffennacht

@bubbygink lmao, were you around for the ward change? Not one person suggested duration as the answer. I even made a post about how ZoS pulls some of the most unforseen ways to change things.

bubbygink

@Waffennacht Yes,I've been around since console launch so I remember that change well.

I am glad that ZOS has at least listened to the community on what we think are issues - i.e. proc sets in this case and infinite shield stacking in that case - and has made efforts to fix the problems. Their idea of making proc sets unable to crit will undoubtedly decrease burst potential against unshielded opponents - so they are trying to lower the ability to instagib with procs. But I don't think that change really addresses the core problem which is that players are able to stack 2-3 proc sets and hit for a massive amount of instant damage simply by light attacking. Even without crit, a stam build wearing viper, widowmaker, and selene will still proc a massive amount of instant damage from a single light attack.

Furthermore, from a PVP stand point these sets will still massively over perform when compared with existing sets. For example, take Hundings which has the same 4 piece set bonuses as Viper. The damage from viper every 4 seconds, even if it can't crit, is far and away more valuable than the 400ish weapon damage from hundings (factoring in medium armor passive and major brutality). 400 weapon damage translates to 435 more damage on a surprise attack (not taking CP or other buffs into account). When factoring in typical PVP CP, buffs, battle spirit, and resistances, this is only going to be like 200-250 more damage per surprise attack. I'll take the non-critable viper proc damage every time. I'm not saying some sets can't be more valuable than others, that will always be the case. But my point is that if the no-crit is the only change made to proc set then proc sets will still over perform and will still overwhelmingly be the stam meta.

Sigtric

It's a single step in the right direction for both PVP and PVE

Proc sets are out of control all around. You just don't hear about it in PVE because it's not killing other players.

Brrrofski

Everyone with half a brain uses 5-7 impen anyway. So they aren't getting critted hard. The change won't actually change barely anything.

The big culprit is viper. Just delete it from the game. Tremorscale needs it's % dropped and so does velidreth. Selene's double proc needs to be fixed and grothdrarr probably needs toning down a bit too. Honestly think they'd be fine overall then.

olsborg

It was a weak fix, hell it wont rly fix it at all. PvP will still be a proccfest of proportions emphasizing on proccs instead of skill. Boo.

Bakven

TBH they just need to remove proc sets that give free dmg from the game. Rebalance them to be similar to Kena, i.e. you need to do something specific to get the added dmg and it also costs something too

mtwiggz

It's because @ZOS_RichLambert is an absolute moron. He doesn't understand why proc sets are so over powered in PvP. He doesn't understand the simple fact that two proc sets hitting at the same time, crit or not, is nearly half - or more - of someone's HP. This wouldn't be an issue if it was a players skills causing said damage, but it's damage due to just wearing a *** armor set.

These idiots keep coming up with moronic ways to fix ESO PvP. @Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert are by far the worse game developers I have ever seen in action. Neither one seem to understand the game, it's mechanics or what the players actually want.

It's absolutely appalling that they're still working for ZoS after all of these years of mistakes.

Biro123

Waffennacht wrote: »

I think it helps greatly. The only time i see a proc in recap it's a crit, and with 2.6k impen and 26k resist a recap of 12k from selene means MASSIVE crit modifier, meaning, I'll never seet that BS again.

No more 11k skoria for me, but well worth the trade.

I'm with this. The times when its really noticed in the old death recap isn't just when they proc together, but when they proc together AND crit (often from high-crit builds) multiplying that burst massively.

Dropping the crit WILL reduce the burst - which is good, right?

BlackMadara

Stacking proc sets isn't an overwhelming issue by itself. It's the sets that people stack.
-Viper shouldn't be guaranteed with that much damage. The damage or chance to proc should be lowered.
-Tremorscale has too high a chance to proc.
-Widowmaker is fine imo due to being melee range with essentially a 20% chance too proc on a 10 second cd. The post from @ZOS_RichLambert stated that poisons would go on cd no matter the weapon used.
-Velidreth might need it's chance lowered since it is a high damage aoe.

Here is an example that shows why I believe stacking "balanced" sets isn't an issue. Widowmaker has a 20% chance to proc on weapon attacks and selene a 15% on light attacks. That means that the chances that both proc on the same light attack is 3%.

ManDraKE

Brrrofski wrote: »

Everyone with half a brain uses 5-7 impen anyway. So they aren't getting critted hard. The change won't actually change barely anything.

that is a common misconception. Even with 5-7 impen, a build with high crit damage still does a ton *** of damage with critical hits. Impen reduces crit damage, it dosn't negate crit damage.

Crown

The changes to crit are completely irrelevant to PvP. Some other changes are going to be made with the goal to make it easier for "newer players" - this is definitely not one of them.

I suggest we get some of the ZOS folks to play for an hour with us, so we can laugh at the masses of stam sorcs wearing black rose, viper, and tremor scale who charge in, hold block, and spam taunt at them. Maybe then there will be some rational thought regarding how to address proc set issues.

bubbygink

Crown wrote: »

The changes to crit are completely irrelevant to PvP. Some other changes are going to be made with the goal to make it easier for "newer players" - this is definitely not one of them.

I suggest we get some of the ZOS folks to play for an hour with us, so we can laugh at the masses of stam sorcs wearing black rose, viper, and tremor scale who charge in, hold block, and spam taunt at them. Maybe then there will be some rational thought regarding how to address proc set issues.

I agree. In my opinion, the two biggest issues of proc sets are 1) that they allow a person to output a huge amount of damage from a single light attack, and 2) that the damage output from stacked proc sets allows player to build extremely tanky (sword and board, black rose stam sorcs) while still easily putting out enough damage to get a kill. Making proc sets unable to crit does not address these issues alone. I can only hope the full patch notes reveal some other changes to help fix these problems.

Knootewoot

Crit was never the issue in PvP since 90% wear full impernetrable.

Even with 0% crit people can one shot when wearing 3 procs sets. This is a nerf for PvE and a nothing for PvP.

I do wish we get full patch notes soon. I want to know:

- will magicka better damage on par with stamina
- will light armor be viable and not like fighting naked
- must i just drop magicka and also start wearing my viper+velidreth just to keep up with PvP and DPS in PvE

I hardly feel any urge to login last few days. Oh well, maybe next year.