The Evolution of the Crown Store

Pandorii · December 2016

JackDaniell wrote: »

The best part is all the money is getting reinvested in server maintinane and pvp balance!

... to me it almost looks like they are trying to bleed the game dry for as much money as they can

I agree with this. ^

To think we'll go almost a year without new DLC...

Phinix1 · December 2016

1) Totally optional cosmetics as game is sub-based. Everyone knows what they are getting, the game makes steady reliable income, and develops new quality content at a reliable rate. Good times.

2) "Someone" at ZOS gets greedy that they aren't milking customers quickly enough and forces the game to go B2P. It seems like a good deal on the surface: Monthly sub lets you play all DLC and earns you crowns to buy cosmetics. And for a time, it was good...

3) The greedy clearly aren't satisfied. Prices for mounts slowly begin to climb, first to 2500 crowns, then 3500, then 4000, and later 4500+. No monthly sub crown allotment increase to match, EVER. Cosmetics that were once 700 for 3 costumes now cost 1500+ for one. Virtually every new item becomes a "limited time only" cash grab. Still, even with the increasing unavailability of crown items to the average person few complain as DLC are still free with sub and you still get monthly crowns for subbing.

4) The crafting bags make subbing more or less non-optional for most. Crown-exclusive motifs are introduced, and you have to buy the mats to even make them for real money as well, directly breaking the promise that all crown store consumables will have in-game options to acquire. New content drops off to near zero, with the focus on One Tamriel as it requires essentially no development yet can be passed of as "new content." Quality control is apparently disbanded, and the game becomes totally unstable for months on end . The exclusivity of content to those able to pay much more than a standard monthly sub begins alienating the majority of customers. People no longer know what they are getting for their money.

5) Introduce the Gambling Casino. Now more than 4 months without any meaningful new content. 90% of new items don't even go to the crown store where people can buy them for a straight up price. Now you have to gamble real money, on average $200 or more based on community statistics, for a CHANCE to get a SINGLE mount.

6) Performance continues to suffer. The camera is de-synced from the character since One Tamriel and jerks around any time you dismount or stop suddenly: Not even acknowledged by ZOS. Old issues like mounts constantly starting and stopping and player jumping lacking all forward momentum when a small rock is in their path go undressed for years. Increased revenue from gambling addicts is clearly not going back into the game. New content is a distant memory. Prices for crown mounts are now hitting 4500.

7) Patch notes have gone from 2+ pages of quality fixes, balancing, and changes to 1-2 lines about basically "fixing stuff we broke with the last fix." If they even have a dev team anymore they seem to be on extended vacation. Even planned future content is really non-content "housing" likely chosen because it is a way to milk micto-transactions in the gambling house. No new actual content DLC in the forseeable future. It seems the game is going in a direction where the only emphasis moving forward will be to push more flashy, increasingly lore breaking attention deficit junk onto the gambling casino to fleece addicts with no self esteem as a business model.

8) F2P?

Pandorii · December 2016

@Phinix1 I really appreciate your post.

You say exactly what I wanted to say in a very easy to read way. I feel like I should change my title to 'de-evolution of the crown store,' but that might get it closed. xD

Phinix1 · December 2016

TheValkyn wrote: »

These things were actually said! Zenimax is a morally bankrupt organization. You should see Pete Hines' mistruths. The list is even longer.

ZOS_MattFiror wrote:

"Elder Scrolls is about being in a giant world, where you’re exploring, and you go to a dungeon, and you don’t get a paygate in front of you saying you don’t have this dungeon," Firor says. "Which means, to us, you need to monetise it outside of the game."

ZOS_MattFiror wrote:

"The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door."

ZOS_MattFiror wrote:

"Our teams have already rolled off of launch content, a lot of them, and some are going to polish the launch, and some are driving straight ahead to post-launch."

ZOS_MattFiror wrote:

"Our target (for updates) is a month to six weeks,"

ZOS_MattFiror wrote:

"You go outside the game, you pay your month, you go in the game, and when you’re in the game, you’re in the game," Firor clarifies. "There’s no real world stuff reaching in to grab you." (Few things break immersion quicker than a game telling you that you can spend cash to unlock chests or get special gear.)

ZOS_MattFiror wrote:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

I love this game and I love The Elder Scrolls but I'd be an absolute fool to look the other way when I'm being lied to.

Does anyone have the quote offhand that promised there would be no consumable items added to the crown store that didn't have an in-game equivalent means to acquire?

Because selling new motif for real money then requiring you to buy the materials to craft with it for real money every time you want to actually use it forever, with no way to acquire those materials in-game, seems like a blatant lie and betrayal to me.

Agobi · December 2016

Pandorii wrote: »

...Pardon me if I question the morality of the company.

There is no such thing ...they are here to make money..and will grab yours any way they can.End of story

Esquire1980g_ESO · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

You've summed it all up really well @Pandorii

I just wish that it wasn't like this. They could have fixed PvP and focused on the community so ESO could have a massive population. Then the Crown Store could've stayed as simple as it was back when it launched (Ex: 3 costumes for 700 Crowns).

Honestly? No.

I mean, I like the idea, and there's a lot of people that will gleefully say that PvP is the panacea for MMOs. But... the problem is, that's not really true.

There's a major problem.

There aren't that many players. Outside of MMOs completely built around PvP, where you don't have any choice on participation, your PvP community is vanishingly small. Other developers have published stats and I've never seen one above 10%, rarely above 5%. There are exceptions, but ESO was never going to be one of those, because of how it handles PvP.

To take an MMO in 2014 and say you expected it to be kept afloat on PvP is probably the result of an echo chamber of fellow PvP enthusiasts distorting your views of the world.

What you need to make PvP appealing is a low barrier for entry, and a combat system built around skill rather than statistical advantages.

ESO does not have a low barrier for entry into PvP. We see complaints all the time about players having to get to Level 10 before they can even hit Cyrodiil, to say nothing of needing to complete significant amounts of PvE content in order to obtain the skills they needed.

This is ignoring the time commitment necessary to gear up, and equip yourself, and keep yourself stocked on consumables like Soul Gems and pots. This means, they need to stop what they're doing, leave PvP, and engage in PvE for extended periods of time in order to go back in.

Or... they could just fire up Call of Duty. I know, COD is a punching bag for a lot of people, but it does allow immediate access and a (theoretically) level playing field. PvP in videogames has evolved into it's own creature with different priorities. As with so many other things, ESO was a nostalgia hit, dragging up loads of mechanics that had been abandoned by MMOs in the last decade. In this case, for good reason. It's amazing when it works, but the way it's designed... the design decisions that are necessary to set up those cool elements, guaranteed that it would appeal to an extreme niche.

I love PvP in this game. You can't get it anywhere else these days. But... I also understand that there aren't tens of millions of people out there who want a PVP game, and are willing to spend the time grinding a character to 50, then grinding their CR to 561, then grinding to get gold upgrade mats, and grinding to get the ideal gear sets, before they start being able to participate in PvP in any serious way. They'll just dig out Call of Duty, or For Honor, or even Dark Souls. Because as much work as DS requires to get you into the PvP meta, it's still a fraction of the time commitment ESO sticks up front as the barrier for entry.

Could this be fixed? Yes, but not without completely overhauling how Cyrodiil works, and how characters are prepped for going there. But, you can't stick template characters into the game, (prebuilt, level 50, CR300, all your skill lines maxed, just add water) without getting a lot of salt from people screaming, "P2W,P2WPW2JEAIDLJEADASPAAAHHHYYY TOOOOOWWWWIIIINNNN!"

So... not happening.

And the reason you couldn't do that is because PvP is advantage based, not skill based. Yes, I know, it takes skill to run high end PvP builds. Hell, it takes skill to run any PvP build that isn't just proc-spam. But, it isn't a game like, let's drag out that dead horse again, CoD. Where a new player can potentially gun down someone who's on their 80th prestige, so long as they're lucky. What cannot happen (without driving people bugnuts) is a level 10 waxing a CR561 in Cyrodiil (ignoring level scaling for the moment). It doesn't matter how skilled the level 10 is, they're up against someone with a much larger repertoire of skills, full gold gear (presumably), better consumables (hell, purple food didn't even exist for level 10s before the Witchmother event). It doesn't matter how good they are, they're toast.

This still applies to newbies hitting Cyrodiil, even with scaling. It's not as one sided. But they're still at a massive statistical disadvantage when paired against veterans who've been in there for ages.

In short, you cannot play ESO as a PvP title. If you just want PvP combat... you're going to look somewhere else. You're going to look for a game that lets you sit down, get straight into combat, and not have to worry about things like stocking up, or asking how many soul gems you've got.

Ironically, for a PvP focused game, consumables as refreshing resources would probably be a much wiser choice. Like the Estus Flasks in Dark Souls, or half the garbage in Dragon Age: Inquisition. Asking someone to manage tripots in the warzone means they're going to need to pop their head out of Cyrodiil from time to time. It means they're going to have to deal with downtime. In a vacuum, or if it was 1999, that's fine, because no one else is offering something like this, and you can afford to break up PvP like that. But, it's 2016. People want PvP, they're going to fire up Overwatch.

I'd like to believe the novelty of a full on campaign is enough to draw people in, but in the end it's not. It is too niche. In a game that's not designed around people doing nothing but PvP.

Vaoh wrote: »

Instead they've continually neglected their game, diminished their reputation, crushed their playerbase, and monetized everything and at higher prices to sqeeze what they can out of the players left. Console release and the concept behind One Tamriel was easily enough (with proper care) to grow ESO bigger than WoW. That's why so many players stuck with it for 6-12 months after it began going downhill.

A game like ESO had almost infinite potential, but ZOS has taken great measures in throwing it away. An inexperienced Dev team with little care for their product and no vision for the game's future. They care strictly for money through monetizing everything possible.

So, I'm actually going to have to stop you there. I don't fully agree with what you're saying, but there are a few huge errors.

First is about monetization. I understand if this is your first exposure to MMOs, it seems like stuff's getting monetized left and right. It's not.

Let's look at Star Trek Online for a moment.

Star Trek uses a resource called Dilithum. This is a little flaky because in theory you can grind it up, but in practice you can buy it for cash. Each character can earn about $0.25 per day (as I recall, it's been awhile.) You're technically buying from other players, which is why you'll see people saying, "oh, but you can play for free, you just need to grind a bit." You can, but you're getting someone else to pay your way.

Dilithium is used for crafting. You can't make purple or higher gear without spending real money.

Dilthium is used as the currency for endgame items. Again, you can't buy endgame gear without spending real money.

Dilithium is used to build the player bases, which include non-cosmetic improvements. Such as increased XP gains, or gear that is (when purchased) flat out better than anything else you can buy in the game.

Dilithium is used for upgrading gear. You see, actual endgame gear doesn't drop at all, and can't be crafted. You can craft up to mk12, but to mk14 you need to... you guessed it, spend real money, and as a bonus, there's actually a gambling mechanic baked into this one.

Dilithium is used to purchase skills for your character (it's a little more involved, but it's part of the crafting system).

And this is before you look at the cash shop. Ships sold in the cash shop (or through lockboxes) are statistically superior to "free" ones (purchased with Dilithium, by the way). Initially this was just a 10% buff on some, and others simply had unique skill configurations. But now, there's an entire tier of ships that are exclusive to those sources. In other words you need to actually pay real money to level up.

Let me say that again, you need to pay real money to level up.

You need to pay real money to gain access to new classes. (Again, ship variants, and your ship is your class in space.)

Those new classes are flat out superior to ones that can be obtained for "free." Again, in scare quotes because... yep, you get one legitimately free ship each time you get access to a new tier.

There are entire systems that function to produce Dilithium, but it's generated at such a slow rate, and characters are hard capped, that you are pointed at the exchange and told to cough up some cash if you want to advance.

Additionally, STO's lockboxes flat out gate top tier class options. The equivalent in ESO would be if instead of Storm Attronach mounts, the Apex rewards actually allowed you to gain additional skill lines, more active ability slots you could use, potentially even additional weapon bars, on top of flat out giving you a +10% boost to your hitpoints, weapon/spell damage, and resistances.

It gets better if you look at other games by the same developer. Neverwinter flat out sticks superior player classes in their lockboxes, which utterly invalidate your existing class choices. Champions Online wins, though. They gate "freeform" characters to subscribers and sell them at $50 per slot. These are characters that can select any player ability in the game, each time they pick one. And, yes, it's exactly as broken as it sounds.

So, no, I've seen far more monetized games. I realize, where you're coming from, you might not realize it. But this stuff can get really predatory. What we've seen in ESO looks like someone following directions from corporate. Not the product of people who are driven by avarice. Because, trust me, they could choke the life out of the whales if they were so inclined.

Vaoh wrote: »

Everything that will come to us in 2017 has likely been almost completely finished since around 2014-2015, which is why we already have trailors/gameplay of it all. They will release this content slowly and monetize every bit of ESO in-between.

Which is why Murkmire didn't release with One Tamriel. Because it's been done for two years, but ZOS doesn't want to charge us for it because they're busy monetizing... what, exactly? We got the crown crates. We got the stupid elk mount. But, again, an expansion of new content, which they could charge for? No, that they needed to keep in the fridge until the right moment because they don't want people paying for it? What?

Now, I could be wrong, but at the beginning of 2016, I think we knew about Thieves guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Those got announced in January. Before that, we didn't really know what was coming out in 2016. This time two years ago, what we knew about 2015 was the Champion System and Justice System (and I think it was still being pitched as open world PvP at that point). We didn't know about the IC or Orsinium yet. (They'd been teased along with a lot of other content, some of which we still haven't gotten. But they hadn't been announced yet.)

Now, you're partially right. ZOS does drip feed information about upcoming releases, basically for the reason you said, though the payoff isn't money, it's attention. They drip feed what's coming next in bits and pieces because they want you excited about the next release. They don't (usually) undercut that by talking about the stuff after that in their main info releases, because it, "distracts from the message," read: "undermines the excitement for the next release." It's not malicious or nefarious, but it is marketing. If you don't like that... I'm sorry, there isn't much you can do. That kind of information delivery actually works to keep attention on a product.

Vaoh wrote: »

That's how ESO is now. Would love for ZOS to prove me wrong, but they know what's up as well.

Yeah, on the scale of MMOs with serious monetization... ESO doesn't raise much of a blip. On the range of games to pick up if you want PvP? Even fantasy PvP, it's not a great choice. Not because of things like the lag in Cyrodiil, but because its PvP design philosophies are stuck in the 20th century. And it would be impossible to fix those without killing the PvP you enjoy.

EDIT: Yay typos. ._.

You talk about STO and the way-worse paygates are in that game. But, if you remember right, STO didn't start with all of that either. It came over time and as their last attempt at monetization failed to bring them what they wanted. So, Cryptic added another form, and another, and another, and another.

I certainly see the similarities between early F2P STO and what ZOS is doing here now. From the advantages to subs (giving some freebies for the sub package), lockboxes (only STO's is about 1/4 of the price), and now raising prices in the store to just stupid levels. And they'll (ZOS) fail too, the same way Cryptic did in STO, so I would fully expect for Dilithium and full on P2W to rear it's ugly head here too. You've already seen the start with adding the XP boost to the lockboxes. Remember when the Defiant was added into the store? Just a hint of P2W there with a full, LONG, way to get the ship via the grind. You've got the exact same thing here, now. This is a path that seems all too easy for studios to run down. Will be interesting tho to see Zos's version of the "bug-ship" altho I'll just look from the outside. Been here, done that, got the T-shirt and the ballcap.

Developers and Studios heads ruining their own games, and now? It's totally acceptable cause it's been going on with so many games and for so long. At least way back when, Smed was in effect ran out of the business. Now? They just move on to another studio and game to destroy.

Phinix1 · December 2016

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

You've summed it all up really well @Pandorii

I just wish that it wasn't like this. They could have fixed PvP and focused on the community so ESO could have a massive population. Then the Crown Store could've stayed as simple as it was back when it launched (Ex: 3 costumes for 700 Crowns).

Honestly? No.

I mean, I like the idea, and there's a lot of people that will gleefully say that PvP is the panacea for MMOs. But... the problem is, that's not really true.

There's a major problem.

There aren't that many players. Outside of MMOs completely built around PvP, where you don't have any choice on participation, your PvP community is vanishingly small. Other developers have published stats and I've never seen one above 10%, rarely above 5%. There are exceptions, but ESO was never going to be one of those, because of how it handles PvP.

To take an MMO in 2014 and say you expected it to be kept afloat on PvP is probably the result of an echo chamber of fellow PvP enthusiasts distorting your views of the world.

What you need to make PvP appealing is a low barrier for entry, and a combat system built around skill rather than statistical advantages.

ESO does not have a low barrier for entry into PvP. We see complaints all the time about players having to get to Level 10 before they can even hit Cyrodiil, to say nothing of needing to complete significant amounts of PvE content in order to obtain the skills they needed.

This is ignoring the time commitment necessary to gear up, and equip yourself, and keep yourself stocked on consumables like Soul Gems and pots. This means, they need to stop what they're doing, leave PvP, and engage in PvE for extended periods of time in order to go back in.

Or... they could just fire up Call of Duty. I know, COD is a punching bag for a lot of people, but it does allow immediate access and a (theoretically) level playing field. PvP in videogames has evolved into it's own creature with different priorities. As with so many other things, ESO was a nostalgia hit, dragging up loads of mechanics that had been abandoned by MMOs in the last decade. In this case, for good reason. It's amazing when it works, but the way it's designed... the design decisions that are necessary to set up those cool elements, guaranteed that it would appeal to an extreme niche.

I love PvP in this game. You can't get it anywhere else these days. But... I also understand that there aren't tens of millions of people out there who want a PVP game, and are willing to spend the time grinding a character to 50, then grinding their CR to 561, then grinding to get gold upgrade mats, and grinding to get the ideal gear sets, before they start being able to participate in PvP in any serious way. They'll just dig out Call of Duty, or For Honor, or even Dark Souls. Because as much work as DS requires to get you into the PvP meta, it's still a fraction of the time commitment ESO sticks up front as the barrier for entry.

Could this be fixed? Yes, but not without completely overhauling how Cyrodiil works, and how characters are prepped for going there. But, you can't stick template characters into the game, (prebuilt, level 50, CR300, all your skill lines maxed, just add water) without getting a lot of salt from people screaming, "P2W,P2WPW2JEAIDLJEADASPAAAHHHYYY TOOOOOWWWWIIIINNNN!"

So... not happening.

And the reason you couldn't do that is because PvP is advantage based, not skill based. Yes, I know, it takes skill to run high end PvP builds. Hell, it takes skill to run any PvP build that isn't just proc-spam. But, it isn't a game like, let's drag out that dead horse again, CoD. Where a new player can potentially gun down someone who's on their 80th prestige, so long as they're lucky. What cannot happen (without driving people bugnuts) is a level 10 waxing a CR561 in Cyrodiil (ignoring level scaling for the moment). It doesn't matter how skilled the level 10 is, they're up against someone with a much larger repertoire of skills, full gold gear (presumably), better consumables (hell, purple food didn't even exist for level 10s before the Witchmother event). It doesn't matter how good they are, they're toast.

This still applies to newbies hitting Cyrodiil, even with scaling. It's not as one sided. But they're still at a massive statistical disadvantage when paired against veterans who've been in there for ages.

In short, you cannot play ESO as a PvP title. If you just want PvP combat... you're going to look somewhere else. You're going to look for a game that lets you sit down, get straight into combat, and not have to worry about things like stocking up, or asking how many soul gems you've got.

Ironically, for a PvP focused game, consumables as refreshing resources would probably be a much wiser choice. Like the Estus Flasks in Dark Souls, or half the garbage in Dragon Age: Inquisition. Asking someone to manage tripots in the warzone means they're going to need to pop their head out of Cyrodiil from time to time. It means they're going to have to deal with downtime. In a vacuum, or if it was 1999, that's fine, because no one else is offering something like this, and you can afford to break up PvP like that. But, it's 2016. People want PvP, they're going to fire up Overwatch.

I'd like to believe the novelty of a full on campaign is enough to draw people in, but in the end it's not. It is too niche. In a game that's not designed around people doing nothing but PvP.

Vaoh wrote: »

Instead they've continually neglected their game, diminished their reputation, crushed their playerbase, and monetized everything and at higher prices to sqeeze what they can out of the players left. Console release and the concept behind One Tamriel was easily enough (with proper care) to grow ESO bigger than WoW. That's why so many players stuck with it for 6-12 months after it began going downhill.

A game like ESO had almost infinite potential, but ZOS has taken great measures in throwing it away. An inexperienced Dev team with little care for their product and no vision for the game's future. They care strictly for money through monetizing everything possible.

So, I'm actually going to have to stop you there. I don't fully agree with what you're saying, but there are a few huge errors.

First is about monetization. I understand if this is your first exposure to MMOs, it seems like stuff's getting monetized left and right. It's not.

Let's look at Star Trek Online for a moment.

Star Trek uses a resource called Dilithum. This is a little flaky because in theory you can grind it up, but in practice you can buy it for cash. Each character can earn about $0.25 per day (as I recall, it's been awhile.) You're technically buying from other players, which is why you'll see people saying, "oh, but you can play for free, you just need to grind a bit." You can, but you're getting someone else to pay your way.

Dilithium is used for crafting. You can't make purple or higher gear without spending real money.

Dilthium is used as the currency for endgame items. Again, you can't buy endgame gear without spending real money.

Dilithium is used to build the player bases, which include non-cosmetic improvements. Such as increased XP gains, or gear that is (when purchased) flat out better than anything else you can buy in the game.

Dilithium is used for upgrading gear. You see, actual endgame gear doesn't drop at all, and can't be crafted. You can craft up to mk12, but to mk14 you need to... you guessed it, spend real money, and as a bonus, there's actually a gambling mechanic baked into this one.

Dilithium is used to purchase skills for your character (it's a little more involved, but it's part of the crafting system).

And this is before you look at the cash shop. Ships sold in the cash shop (or through lockboxes) are statistically superior to "free" ones (purchased with Dilithium, by the way). Initially this was just a 10% buff on some, and others simply had unique skill configurations. But now, there's an entire tier of ships that are exclusive to those sources. In other words you need to actually pay real money to level up.

Let me say that again, you need to pay real money to level up.

You need to pay real money to gain access to new classes. (Again, ship variants, and your ship is your class in space.)

Those new classes are flat out superior to ones that can be obtained for "free." Again, in scare quotes because... yep, you get one legitimately free ship each time you get access to a new tier.

There are entire systems that function to produce Dilithium, but it's generated at such a slow rate, and characters are hard capped, that you are pointed at the exchange and told to cough up some cash if you want to advance.

Additionally, STO's lockboxes flat out gate top tier class options. The equivalent in ESO would be if instead of Storm Attronach mounts, the Apex rewards actually allowed you to gain additional skill lines, more active ability slots you could use, potentially even additional weapon bars, on top of flat out giving you a +10% boost to your hitpoints, weapon/spell damage, and resistances.

It gets better if you look at other games by the same developer. Neverwinter flat out sticks superior player classes in their lockboxes, which utterly invalidate your existing class choices. Champions Online wins, though. They gate "freeform" characters to subscribers and sell them at $50 per slot. These are characters that can select any player ability in the game, each time they pick one. And, yes, it's exactly as broken as it sounds.

So, no, I've seen far more monetized games. I realize, where you're coming from, you might not realize it. But this stuff can get really predatory. What we've seen in ESO looks like someone following directions from corporate. Not the product of people who are driven by avarice. Because, trust me, they could choke the life out of the whales if they were so inclined.

Vaoh wrote: »

Everything that will come to us in 2017 has likely been almost completely finished since around 2014-2015, which is why we already have trailors/gameplay of it all. They will release this content slowly and monetize every bit of ESO in-between.

Which is why Murkmire didn't release with One Tamriel. Because it's been done for two years, but ZOS doesn't want to charge us for it because they're busy monetizing... what, exactly? We got the crown crates. We got the stupid elk mount. But, again, an expansion of new content, which they could charge for? No, that they needed to keep in the fridge until the right moment because they don't want people paying for it? What?

Now, I could be wrong, but at the beginning of 2016, I think we knew about Thieves guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Those got announced in January. Before that, we didn't really know what was coming out in 2016. This time two years ago, what we knew about 2015 was the Champion System and Justice System (and I think it was still being pitched as open world PvP at that point). We didn't know about the IC or Orsinium yet. (They'd been teased along with a lot of other content, some of which we still haven't gotten. But they hadn't been announced yet.)

Now, you're partially right. ZOS does drip feed information about upcoming releases, basically for the reason you said, though the payoff isn't money, it's attention. They drip feed what's coming next in bits and pieces because they want you excited about the next release. They don't (usually) undercut that by talking about the stuff after that in their main info releases, because it, "distracts from the message," read: "undermines the excitement for the next release." It's not malicious or nefarious, but it is marketing. If you don't like that... I'm sorry, there isn't much you can do. That kind of information delivery actually works to keep attention on a product.

Vaoh wrote: »

That's how ESO is now. Would love for ZOS to prove me wrong, but they know what's up as well.

Yeah, on the scale of MMOs with serious monetization... ESO doesn't raise much of a blip. On the range of games to pick up if you want PvP? Even fantasy PvP, it's not a great choice. Not because of things like the lag in Cyrodiil, but because its PvP design philosophies are stuck in the 20th century. And it would be impossible to fix those without killing the PvP you enjoy.

EDIT: Yay typos. ._.

You talk about STO and the way-worse paygates are in that game. But, if you remember right, STO didn't start with all of that either. It came over time and as their last attempt at monetization failed to bring them what they wanted. So, Cryptic added another form, and another, and another, and another.

I certainly see the similarities between early F2P STO and what ZOS is doing here now. From the advantages to subs (giving some freebies for the sub package), lockboxes (only STO's is about 1/4 of the price), and now raising prices in the store to just stupid levels. And they'll (ZOS) fail too, the same way Cryptic did in STO, so I would fully expect for Dilithium and full on P2W to rear it's ugly head here too. You've already seen the start with adding the XP boost to the lockboxes. Remember when the Defiant was added into the store? Just a hint of P2W there with a full, LONG, way to get the ship via the grind. You've got the exact same thing here, now. This is a path that seems all too easy for studios to run down. Will be interesting tho to see Zos's version of the "bug-ship" altho I'll just look from the outside. Been here, done that, got the T-shirt and the ballcap.

Developers and Studios heads ruining their own games, and now? It's totally acceptable cause it's been going on with so many games and for so long. At least way back when, Smed was in effect ran out of the business. Now? They just move on to another studio and game to destroy.

If you are going to quote 40 pages of TL:DR, is it really so hard to take 2 seconds to put [ spoiler ][ /spoiler ] tags around it so people don't have to scroll through 40 pages of repeats?

Aeladiir · December 2016

The entire OP is awkwardly biased and very hard to take seriously. While long and expansive, it clearly wants to convince the reader that Zenimax's actions are bad and doesn't present any kind of constructive criticism (quantity is not quality). It's a sad attempt at manipulation and I sincerely hope that newcomers (who are also addressed in the post) won't buy into it.

OP seems to be catering to the people that share his own opinion and is fishing for easy "insightfuls" and "agrees", and the sad part of it is that it's actually succeeding. And if it is - by any chance - an attempt to make people at ZOS feel bad about their Crown Store policies, it most definetly isn't a very good one, as it never presents a single rational argument, leading to one simple, albeit trashy conclusion: OP is butthurt AF because he feels that a digital elk is too expensive and that crown crates are cancer.

Sad. Entering a thread, titled "The Evolution of Crown Store", I would've expected an objective criticism of ZOS' policies, yet all I have been given is a bunch of manipulative sentences. Last time I checked, the evolution was based on facts, not beliefs and personal convictions. There's another word for that.

Hammy01 · December 2016

That was a great read OP!!
Zos has a great short game so far but they are goinng to get to greedy and in the end this will kill their long game!!!

I have also been thinking about the direction Zos is going....
We have been told that we will all get a free home with the HomeStead DLC but I am thinking we might have to buy the front door key from the CROWN STORE!!

starkerealm · December 2016

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

You talk about STO and the way-worse paygates are in that game. But, if you remember right, STO didn't start with all of that either. It came over time and as their last attempt at monetization failed to bring them what they wanted. So, Cryptic added another form, and another, and another, and another.

I remember. I also remember that the C-Store had non-cosmetic sidegrades pretty early on. When Cryptic ditched subscriptions it was straight to the grab bags, and those started with the JAS. They introduced Dilithium at that point.

And...

At that point there was a policy instituted internally. If a system was broken, or bugged, it would not get fixed unless it could be monetized. Which is why Dilithium's been leaking into every aspect of the game since then.

Again, to really cry about ZOS being aggressive about monetization when housing will (apparently) not be a crown store exclusive is a bit excessive. I'm more than a little worried about what lockboxes can do to game development, and you can certainly find my posts on the subject if you don't believe me, but saying, "this is the worst ever," followed by, "buh-buh-but, boiling frogs!" is crying wolf.

starkerealm · December 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

2) "Someone" at ZOS gets greedy that they aren't milking customers quickly enough and forces the game to go B2P.

I didn't realize Microsoft worked for ZOS.

Phinix1 wrote: »

3) The greedy clearly aren't satisfied. Prices for mounts slowly begin to climb, first to 2500 crowns, then 3500, then 4000, and later 4500+.

Yeah, because the Ice Wolf was 4,500 crowns! No... wait. The Doom Wolf? Was that 4,500? No. I know there was something after the Dro-M'athra that was more than it.

Oh, I know, it was that freakin fire horse that was introduced, that was... 2,500. Right...

So, a price can't "climb," to where it starts at. And, when the crown store dropped the nightmare courser was 2,500.

In fact, near as I can tell, there never was a 3,500 crown mount. The Ice Horse was 3k, the Dro-M'athra Senche was 4k, so you did remember that right. And of course after the Dro-M'athra Senche they came back down to 2,500 again.

In fact the Zombie Horse actually went down in price when it came back on the store. It was originally 2,500, but when it was available this October it was 1,200. A surer sign of greed, I've not seen... oh, wait.

Now, 4,500 is a stupid price for the Elk. You want to say it's not worth that? Then we can actually agree on something. Especially given the previous 2,500+ mounts actually brought something really special to the table. The Ice Horse and Dro-m'athra are both really distinctive mounts that stood out.

Of course, none of this addresses the most expensive mount of all... the $150 Senche Tiger. But... I guess you were interested in yelling at the crown store first and foremost.

Phinix1 wrote: »

No monthly sub crown allotment increase to match, EVER. Cosmetics that were once 700 for 3 costumes now cost 1500+ for one. Virtually every new item becomes a "limited time only" cash grab. Still, even with the increasing unavailability of crown items to the average person few complain as DLC are still free with sub and you still get monthly crowns for subbing.

So, all those Imperial costumes that got added this month permanently don't count? Or the part that the three costumes for 700 was just existing items) put together as a Costume? I know, we don't have access to the Nedic and Ashlander motifs yet. But, those combo packs were exclusively using launch and Craglorn era assets.

Look at the 1k costumes? Even the non-limited time ones. New meshes. Outfits that can't be mistaken for you simply wearing low tier armor. Stuff that actually stands out.

When you see someone wandering around in a Crafty Larissa outfit, you need to ask yourself, "are they wearing a costume, or just an idiot who isn't wearing shoulder pads, and hasn't upgraded from rawhide?"

Phinix1 wrote: »

4) The crafting bags make subbing more or less non-optional for most. Crown-exclusive motifs are introduced, and you have to buy the mats to even make them for real money as well, directly breaking the promise that all crown store consumables will have in-game options to acquire.

And... here you have a valid point. But you buried it in the middle of a long diatribe. The people you could convince with this have already left because of the earlier wild hyperbole, so the only people left are the ones who already agree with you, and don't know what they're looking at, and me, telling you how you stepped over a line for far too long.

Phinix1 wrote: »

New content drops off to near zero, with the focus on One Tamriel as it requires essentially no development yet can be passed of as "new content." Quality control is apparently disbanded, and the game becomes totally unstable for months on end . The exclusivity of content to those able to pay much more than a standard monthly sub begins alienating the majority of customers. People no longer know what they are getting for their money.

I don't believe you. So, here's a trick. I want you to dig up... let's say Skyrim. Then, from scratch rework the game's entire leveling system from the ground up. If you prefer, you can grab Fallout 4 instead. Let me know how long that takes.

Phinix1 wrote: »

5) Introduce the Gambling Casino.

Meh. I'm tuned out. If you derped anything up after this point, I can't be bothered to check.

Esquire1980g_ESO · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

You talk about STO and the way-worse paygates are in that game. But, if you remember right, STO didn't start with all of that either. It came over time and as their last attempt at monetization failed to bring them what they wanted. So, Cryptic added another form, and another, and another, and another.

I remember. I also remember that the C-Store had non-cosmetic sidegrades pretty early on. When Cryptic ditched subscriptions it was straight to the grab bags, and those started with the JAS. They introduced Dilithium at that point.

And...

At that point there was a policy instituted internally. If a system was broken, or bugged, it would not get fixed unless it could be monetized. Which is why Dilithium's been leaking into every aspect of the game since then.

Again, to really cry about ZOS being aggressive about monetization when housing will (apparently) not be a crown store exclusive is a bit excessive. I'm more than a little worried about what lockboxes can do to game development, and you can certainly find my posts on the subject if you don't believe me, but saying, "this is the worst ever," followed by, "buh-buh-but, boiling frogs!" is crying wolf.

There's no "crying wolf" here. Of course housing will have a monetization to it. They're copying the TOR set up with good reason, there's people here that have experience with it. Head on over there and look at what you can get without spending any real cash, subbed or not. And you can get the 1st bit of housing free but not a heck of a lot to go in it. Then, there's an in-game contest and who's winning list for deco making cosmetics clearly P2W in that set up. The only reason STO doesn't have that is their engine limited what they could do with ship interiors/slots. So, if you look at the history there, no monetization, no ship interiors, even with the lockbox ships coming out. I had a couple of ships that barely had a bridge.

Point is, monetization has started in TESO and it will evolve in all probability along the same exact paths that all the others have went down. Doesn't matter what's there today, it will get better or worse depending on what your viewpoint actually is after this or that try at monetization doesn't bring in the numbers that the studio is looking for or someone up there believes they can even do better.

JimT722 · December 2016

It has almost been 7 months since Dark Brotherhood released. I like the idea of housing, but it makes no sense to be released now. The likely reason is because they have plans to make tons of money with it. the housing is in game or crown currency. Some exclusive crown homes. Crown decorations are going to be added. I wonder how the in game items will stack up but I'm not holding my breath.

starkerealm · December 2016

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

They're copying the TOR set up with good reason...

I didn't realize being able to equip gold rarity items was a subscriber perk.

I thought subscribers actually got access to new content zones in ESO, as opposed to TOR where you're expected to subscribe and cough up.

I was under the impression free players could sprint in ESO. Have I been deceived?

Esquire1980g_ESO · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

They're copying the TOR set up with good reason...

I didn't realize being able to equip gold rarity items was a subscriber perk.

I thought subscribers actually got access to new content zones in ESO, as opposed to TOR where you're expected to subscribe and cough up.

I was under the impression free players could sprint in ESO. Have I been deceived?

My comment was based on housing as detailed in my original comment. But, you bring up some interesting ideas which I'm sure HAS or most certainly WILL be discussed, or may be already on the "white board" at this time. After all, it worked soooo well in TOR.

Maybe, in hindsight, your ideas or some just like them, might be the real reason that the crafting bag is a sub only perk and not sold separately in the C-store...., uhhhh, Crown Store.

TheValkyn · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

They're copying the TOR set up with good reason...

I didn't realize being able to equip gold rarity items was a subscriber perk.

I thought subscribers actually got access to new content zones in ESO, as opposed to TOR where you're expected to subscribe and cough up.

I was under the impression free players could sprint in ESO. Have I been deceived?

You're misinformed. There are no "Free Players" in ESO. You can buy the "artifact authorization" allowing you to wear high quality gear in SWTOR with in-game/earned credits(gold). You will have that many credits by the time you hit level 30. You are also not required to purchase the expansions when you're a sub either. It's all included and if your sub expires then you still keep the DLC/expansions you were subscribed for and anything that came before your subscription ended. That's actually better than ESO's content leasing model.

In addition, every cash shop item is tradeable and allows anyone to purchase them or gift them to friends. So two of the flaws you pointed out are actually done better in SWTOR than they are in ESO.

Pandorii · December 2016

We should probably try not to derail the thread and risk getting deleted. =( maybe just tie back your analysis to eso?

TheValkyn · December 2016

Pandorii wrote: »

We should probably try not to derail the thread and risk getting deleted. =( maybe just tie back your analysis to eso?

Correlating the "Worst Business Model of 2016" award winner (SWTOR) to ESO and how it still does things better is not a derailment.

Embarrassing for Zenimax though? Maybe.

Xsorus · December 2016

People feel the need to whine for silly reasons; this game has yet to release anything in the crown store that is absolutely needed by anyone. That includes most of the actual dlcs as well. If you're subscribed you actually don't need anything from the crown store and anyone who begins to compare it to things like SWTOR or STO shows how inept and frankly Uninformed they are.

In other words; you want to *** atleast *** about something valid.

TheValkyn · December 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

People feel the need to whine for silly reasons; this game has yet to release anything in the crown store that is absolutely needed by anyone. That includes most of the actual dlcs as well. If you're subscribed you actually don't need anything from the crown store and anyone who begins to compare it to things like SWTOR or STO shows how inept and frankly Uninformed they are.

In other words; you want to *** atleast *** about something valid.

You're incredibly uninformed then. In SWTOR, outside of your subscription you pay nothing if you don't want to. Absolutely nothing. You can purchase anything off of the cash shop for in game gold/credits including xp boosts or vanity items. Expansions and all of the perks are available via in-game gold/credits or included in your subscription. You can't do that with ESO.