REQ for Root cool down

Rohaus

With the up and coming buff to Mag DK's, I imagine we will see more and more Mag DK's on the battlefield as a result. As it stands right now, there are many Sorc and DK’s that are regularly spamming encase and talons while fighting. It has become a chore to be constantly having to break roots only to get rooted immediately afterwards.

For the longest time, I had no problem with DK’s having talons because this was a huge defensive measure for them. However, with the buffs coming soon for Mag DK’s, I don’t want to see an already abused skill get further abused due to the number of Mag DK’s I envision will be on the battlefield.

Fengrush has also expressed his thoughts on root spamming and has stated his desire for there to be a cool down in relation to being rooted. Interesting enough, his latest build has been focused on simply controlling the battlefield and as has been witnessed, Sorc encase is also in need of a CD so as to prevent the spamming of said ability, not that Fengrush spams encase as he is focused on using all of his abilities on his bars.

ZOS, could we please have a CD implemented for root spamming? You did this with bombard which was greatly needed… subsequently, everyone stopped using bombard.

It’s bad enough to be slowed to the point of moving at a snail’s pace… but to also be repeatedly rooted by encase and talons just makes for a very frustrating PvP experience.

Here’s to hoping!

Kutsuu

I think that dodge rolling out of an immobilize or sitting through a full duration immobilize should provide a 4-5 second immunity. I didn't include cleanse here... I just think ritual is already strong enough. This would hurt a lot of my builds - I use immobilize in every way I can to put pressure on player's stamina since everyone runs zero sustain builds these days thinking they will be fine. Still, it just doesn't seem quite right.

NBrookus

I think that all movement restrictions need to be addressed and toned down. We have:

1. buggy CCs (like fear)
2. semi-functioning CC immunity
3. that idiot gap closer snare that is unavoidable -- combined with gap closers that do too much damage
4. gapclosers that just don't work (like empowering chains) or you gap close off the map
5. snaring poisons
6. monster sets that snare or inhibit movement
7. umpteen snare and root skills; we even have a passive that snares

Spammable roots are just a part of the problem IMO.

Rohaus

@NBrookus

I agree that CC's in general could use a good re-tooling. However, instead of looking at all the problems, it'd be advisable to have ZOS focus on a select few initially and work down the list.

ZOS could simply take your list that you posted as a prioritization list... however, I would put ROOT CD at the top of that list.

Bandit1215

Kutsuu wrote: »

I think that dodge rolling out of an immobilize or sitting through a full duration immobilize should provide a 4-5 second immunity. I didn't include cleanse here... I just think ritual is already strong enough. This would hurt a lot of my builds - I use immobilize in every way I can to put pressure on player's stamina since everyone runs zero sustain builds these days thinking they will be fine. Still, it just doesn't seem quite right.

It's not that people don't run sustain builds, but rather, people don't NEED to run sustain builds because with heavy armor, siphoning attacks, dark deal and such, it isn't necessary and they sustain just fine with like 800 regen like Fengrush does.

Rohaus

Put poisons on the target that you think sustains sufficiently and see what happens.

Armitas

I think we need to look at this on an individual basis because a ranged root and a melee root have a lot of differences on the side. For example...

• Difference 1. A ranged root can be immediately reapplied because the target never leaves the area of threat by rolling out of the root. That isn't the case for a melee root. A melee root puts the caster at risk by virtue of it's range, and when the target rolls out of it, he rolls out of the area of threat. For the caster to recast the root he has to gap close and recast. Talons is one of the more expensive skills on the DK, and the gap closer isn't cheap either making it a very costly combo to spam against a fleeing target.
  
• Difference 2. A ranged root prevents all melee damage. A melee root does not prevent any damage, it prevents escape.
  
• Difference 3 Melee roots come with full risk, Ranged roots come with no risk because the intent and purpose of it is to avoid risk.
  
• Note While Talons without immunity is not an essential part of PvE tanking, it is a very convenient part that people are very accustomed too

So I don't think that a global solution would be accurate to the problem.

One of the immediate concerns I would have as a DK with a talon immunity is what am I getting out of my root that is immediately rolled out of? I'm not getting a root, I'm not getting the dot out of burning talons so what am I getting for such a large cost skill? I'm putting myself at high risk on the front line to root so what reward did I get out of that investment in risk?

Rohaus

If you use fossilize too early on a target, you also lose the associated magicka with nothing to show for it.

Perhaps talons DOT damage could go through even if the target is on root CD immunity.

Waffennacht

Armitas wrote: »

I
One of the immediate concerns I would have as a DK with a talon immunity is what am I getting out of my root that is immediately rolled out of? I'm not getting a root, I'm not getting the dot out of burning talons so what am I getting for such a large cost skill? I'm putting myself at high risk on the front line to root so what reward did I get out of that investment in risk?

This:

If you roll dodge and get immunity - the amount of stamina used is grossly smaller than the amount regenerated. Not to mention the roll dodge dodges an attack. What would be the use in Encase? Wouldn't Frost Clench be excruciatingly weak for damage? Wouldn't talons also be worthless?

Kutsuu

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

I think that dodge rolling out of an immobilize or sitting through a full duration immobilize should provide a 4-5 second immunity. I didn't include cleanse here... I just think ritual is already strong enough. This would hurt a lot of my builds - I use immobilize in every way I can to put pressure on player's stamina since everyone runs zero sustain builds these days thinking they will be fine. Still, it just doesn't seem quite right.

It's not that people don't run sustain builds, but rather, people don't NEED to run sustain builds because with heavy armor, siphoning attacks, dark deal and such, it isn't necessary and they sustain just fine with like 800 regen like Fengrush does.

Then they run into someone that keeps them immobilized and their sustain goes down the drain. That's why it's so effective for me. You go ahead and try casting dark deal while you're immobilized and eat a bash in your face. Try light attack weaving someone who's behind you to get siphon sustain. Again, that's why I mentioned people thinking they will be fine with no sustain, right up until they run into a situation where they needed more and can't use the tools they were accustomed to.

Manoekin

There's many times where I can't even cleanse a root/snare on me even though I'm removing 5 for each cast. There is simply so many debuffs that go on you in PvP. Something similar to bombard needs to happen to all roots, and snares should be capped at 50% move speed. The time where you're literally just locked in place for eternity needs to end, and a small root immunity wouldn't hurt your ability to break someone's sustain imo. We shouldn't be pigeonholed into specific builds just so that we can have control over them during a fight. If you just can't move your character for the majority of fights then the game is broken and not fun IMO.

Waffennacht

Manoekin wrote: »

There's many times where I can't even cleanse a root/snare on me even though I'm removing 5 for each cast. There is simply so many debuffs that go on you in PvP. Something similar to bombard needs to happen to all roots, and snares should be capped at 50% move speed. The time where you're literally just locked in place for eternity needs to end, and a small root immunity wouldn't hurt your ability to break someone's sustain imo. We shouldn't be pigeonholed into specific builds just so that we can have control over them during a fight. If you just can't move your character for the majority of fights then the game is broken and not fun IMO.

If you're removing 5 abilities to your one you're getting insane efficiency and draining massive resources from multiple opponents.

Why would you think if 5 players that are targeting one opponent he should be able to ignore all 5s abilities?

The dev team said it themselves: if you're out numbered you're going to have a hard time.

alephthiago

Well, i dont know which class you guys play, but magDKs and magblades are highly dependant on roots for battlefield control, damage control and slowing down bursters, its the only way to survive and be competitive while having 2 - 2.2k unbuffed sp and going against 3 -3.2k wd stam builds, high burst sorc builds or high healing templar builds.

If such things as root immunity would come into play then zos would need to rework how each class causes damage, heals, moves, shields and etc

Lord-Otto

alephthiago wrote: »

Well, i dont know which class you guys play, but magDKs and magblades are highly dependant on roots for battlefield control, damage control and slowing down bursters, its the only way to survive and be competitive while having 2 - 2.2k unbuffed sp and going against 3 -3.2k wd stam builds, high burst sorc builds or high healing templar builds.

If such things as root immunity would come into play then zos would need to rework how each class causes damage, heals, moves, shields and etc

I play magsorc, magblade, magDK. And I don't agree.

Magsorcs barely have a burst anymore. Everyone blocks/dodges frags, Streak doesn't drop block, meteor gets blocked and all projectiles get dodged. We have EotS, that's it.

Magblades are more offensive with EotS and more bursty with proxy det/tether. They are the best zerg wipers in a game which is decided by zergs. Don't need roots, they have an awesome gapcloser. What they need is more 1v1 punch.

MagDKs need chains to work, that's it. Fossilize is already extremely strong, and Power Lash has a cooldown, so perma-rooting is not needed. You give 'em an execute, burst skill and gapcloser, put a cooldown on roots and we can call it a very fine day.

DKsUnite

the day ZOS butchers talons is the day i stop playing mDK

Joy_Division

Armitas wrote: »

I think we need to look at this on an individual basis because a ranged root and a melee root have a lot of differences on the side. For example...

• Difference 1. A ranged root can be immediately reapplied because the target never leaves the area of threat by rolling out of the root. That isn't the case for a melee root. A melee root puts the caster at risk by virtue of it's range, and when the target rolls out of it, he rolls out of the area of threat. For the caster to recast the root he has to gap close and recast. Talons is one of the more expensive skills on the DK, and the gap closer isn't cheap either making it a very costly combo to spam against a fleeing target.
  
• Difference 2. A ranged root prevents all melee damage. A melee root does not prevent any damage, it prevents escape.
  
• Difference 3 Melee roots come with full risk, Ranged roots come with no risk because the intent and purpose of it is to avoid risk.
  
• Note While Talons without immunity is not an essential part of PvE tanking, it is a very convenient part that people are very accustomed too

So I don't think that a global solution would be accurate to the problem.

One of the immediate concerns I would have as a DK with a talon immunity is what am I getting out of my root that is immediately rolled out of? I'm not getting a root, I'm not getting the dot out of burning talons so what am I getting for such a large cost skill? I'm putting myself at high risk on the front line to root so what reward did I get out of that investment in risk?

I hate roots and snares as much as the next person, but I would encourage everyone - including the devs - to read and reread this before anything happens with roots.

The NB 28 meters away spamming Cripple is way more abusive than a DK spamming talons.

mtwiggz

Snares and immobilizations need a cool down. None of your arguments are valid. Accept your fate.

While we're at it, remove snares from gap closers. This quick bandaid fix has been in the game for far too long. Fix it the right way.

Sharee

To borrow a quote from Joy: "This forum has a serious case of post traumatic DK syndrome."

It's unreal... mDK this, mDK that.

All the while we have things like rearming trap that if not broken out of roots the target for 12(!!!) seconds compared to the talons' 4.

The ability of a mDK to spam roots is more than adequately balanced by their own vulnerability to being constantly rooted. Compare that to the ability of any stamina build to spam roots while being virtually immune to them themselves, since they live by dodge rolling, and would have likely rolled anyway, root or not (not to mention stuff like shuffle that is on every stamina char's bar, and not because of roots).

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I think we need to look at this on an individual basis because a ranged root and a melee root have a lot of differences on the side. For example...

• Difference 1. A ranged root can be immediately reapplied because the target never leaves the area of threat by rolling out of the root. That isn't the case for a melee root. A melee root puts the caster at risk by virtue of it's range, and when the target rolls out of it, he rolls out of the area of threat. For the caster to recast the root he has to gap close and recast. Talons is one of the more expensive skills on the DK, and the gap closer isn't cheap either making it a very costly combo to spam against a fleeing target.
  
• Difference 2. A ranged root prevents all melee damage. A melee root does not prevent any damage, it prevents escape.
  
• Difference 3 Melee roots come with full risk, Ranged roots come with no risk because the intent and purpose of it is to avoid risk.
  
• Note While Talons without immunity is not an essential part of PvE tanking, it is a very convenient part that people are very accustomed too

So I don't think that a global solution would be accurate to the problem.

One of the immediate concerns I would have as a DK with a talon immunity is what am I getting out of my root that is immediately rolled out of? I'm not getting a root, I'm not getting the dot out of burning talons so what am I getting for such a large cost skill? I'm putting myself at high risk on the front line to root so what reward did I get out of that investment in risk?

I hate roots and snares as much as the next person, but I would encourage everyone - including the devs - to read and reread this before anything happens with roots.

The NB 28 meters away spamming Cripple is way more abusive than a DK spamming talons.

But this also gets us into the kind of hairy position of: What if DK ever gets a vaible gapcloser (which they desperately need imo)? - Most likely non mobile builds will never be able to leave the talonspam again. Especially magica builds.

However i think snares are more of a problem than roots are. I´d probably convert snares into the major minor buff system having a minor 10% snare and a major 30% snare that can stack - and thats it.
Maximum of 40% snare in total. Implement this without changing roots and see how it works out (and eventually alter the snare duration on certain abilities).

Armitas

alephthiago wrote: »

Well, i dont know which class you guys play, but magDKs and magblades are highly dependant on roots for battlefield control, damage control and slowing down bursters, its the only way to survive and be competitive while having 2 - 2.2k unbuffed sp and going against 3 -3.2k wd stam builds, high burst sorc builds or high healing templar builds.

If such things as root immunity would come into play then zos would need to rework how each class causes damage, heals, moves, shields and etc

Thats my take as well. I have tried a lot of different things and I truly think talons is the greatest survival skill we have. If that immunity hit right now my class would be dead to every non cloak stambuiild out there. I is basically our 20% dodge in that we can cause our inc melee damage from a group or a person to stop for just long enough for our complicated heals to keep up. If it happened right now it wouldn't just be the nail on the coffin it would be the tombstone.

Rohaus

I have read everyone's post and I like the dialogue that is happening here.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT wanting for Mag DK to suffer any further demise than it already has in the last year. I play on a Mag DK and know the frustration of fighting against the odds. In the games current form, Mag DK’s NEED talons the way it is simply because talons are a huge method assisting in survival.

However, on the flipside, depending on the changes that are coming… if Mag DK ends up becoming FOTM… the entire battlefield will turn into an AOE damage / talons spamathon. From my perspective, this will be highly unenjoyable as I prefer to play in your face melee single target damage. The way it stands right now, if I am fighting against a Mag DK or a Mag Sorc… I sit in root half the time… I have had to adapt my gameplay just to make it less frustrating by using a two hander and running with Forward Momentum. In the games current form, I don’t think enough people understand how powerful Forward Momentum is… yet, you give up a significant burst heal by going with Forward Momentum just so you can have 8 seconds of freedom…

I agree with one of the posts above… before said change would occur, Mag DK’s would NEED to be given the following to compensate for root CD:

1. Better heals (which is supposedly coming)
2. Better damage mitigation since talons are a defensive measure
3. More DOTs! Well, I simply want to see DOT damage increased due to how easily it is purged… or maybe even make one of the DOTs unpurgable.
4. Gap closer. If chains worked like they did a long time ago… where they actually worked… would be so lovely!

When I have fought Mag DK’s with Forward Momentum equipped… 1 v 1… they really didn’t have a chance. Take Forward Momentum away and the tables would be turned as I would be spending a lot of stamina to break root. I prefer more fluid game play. (I currently play on my Stam DK)

I do want to see Root CC eventually have a CD in place but there needs to be careful attention made to compensate for the loss of something that has really been the only mainstay for Mag DK’s.

thankyourat

Lord-Otto wrote: »

alephthiago wrote: »

Well, i dont know which class you guys play, but magDKs and magblades are highly dependant on roots for battlefield control, damage control and slowing down bursters, its the only way to survive and be competitive while having 2 - 2.2k unbuffed sp and going against 3 -3.2k wd stam builds, high burst sorc builds or high healing templar builds.

If such things as root immunity would come into play then zos would need to rework how each class causes damage, heals, moves, shields and etc

I play magsorc, magblade, magDK. And I don't agree.

Magsorcs barely have a burst anymore. Everyone blocks/dodges frags, Streak doesn't drop block, meteor gets blocked and all projectiles get dodged. We have EotS, that's it.

Magblades are more offensive with EotS and more bursty with proxy det/tether. They are the best zerg wipers in a game which is decided by zergs. Don't need roots, they have an awesome gapcloser. What they need is more 1v1 punch.

MagDKs need chains to work, that's it. Fossilize is already extremely strong, and Power Lash has a cooldown, so perma-rooting is not needed. You give 'em an execute, burst skill and gapcloser, put a cooldown on roots and we can call it a very fine day.

Magblades most definitely need the imobalize from crippling or every single melee build would be in your face the whole fight. I think it's the same with the dk. They don't have a gap closer so talons is a way to stop you from just kiting them the whole fight. I would also hate to see mag dk get a gap closer because with wings I can't hit them the only thing I can do is kite and a gap closer would prevent that. I don't know what the game should do about roots because they are broken especially when you are outnumbered, but if you take permaroot away some class would be ruined mainly magblade and mag dk.

NBrookus

The OP did preface this discussion with the assumption that mDK is getting buffed. Recent mDK "buffs" have been underwhelming, so while I am hopeful I am not particularly optimistic that the class' issues will get fixed. Apparently I am not alone, because this thread went straight for why Talons shouldn't be nerfed.

I wish Talons could be safely spammed from the security of a blob like Encase. I wish Talons were undodgeable and unavoidable like Trap Beast, that you could put down multiple Talons and they did anywhere near as much damage. I don't wish for the duration... that's just busted and no root should last that long.

I'm not against the concept of root immunity. But right now it would be devasting to mDKs who not only rely on roots, but don't have access to any skill to remove them without going vamp.

TreeHugger1

I think there should be exceptions such as sorc mines,damage is already nothing against heavy armor targets and if they will step inside without getting rooted it will be terrible...
Anyway I like the idea,the game is full with roots and snares(30% 40% 50% 60% 70% and 75%) ,because of this immobility you take much more damage and cant use the area to your advantage.

Ishammael

DKsUnite wrote: »

the day ZOS butchers talons is the day i stop playing mDK

Yup.

In any case, there is a huge gap in power between a ranged root and a melee one.
@Armitas Is spot on in his post. A "universal" solution to roots would not be equitable. Each skill needs to be looked at individually.

alephthiago

Lord-Otto wrote: »

alephthiago wrote: »

Well, i dont know which class you guys play, but magDKs and magblades are highly dependant on roots for battlefield control, damage control and slowing down bursters, its the only way to survive and be competitive while having 2 - 2.2k unbuffed sp and going against 3 -3.2k wd stam builds, high burst sorc builds or high healing templar builds.

If such things as root immunity would come into play then zos would need to rework how each class causes damage, heals, moves, shields and etc

I play magsorc, magblade, magDK. And I don't agree.

Magsorcs barely have a burst anymore. Everyone blocks/dodges frags, Streak doesn't drop block, meteor gets blocked and all projectiles get dodged. We have EotS, that's it.

Magblades are more offensive with EotS and more bursty with proxy det/tether. They are the best zerg wipers in a game which is decided by zergs. Don't need roots, they have an awesome gapcloser. What they need is more 1v1 punch.

MagDKs need chains to work, that's it. Fossilize is already extremely strong, and Power Lash has a cooldown, so perma-rooting is not needed. You give 'em an execute, burst skill and gapcloser, put a cooldown on roots and we can call it a very fine day.

Looks like you play magblade only for group play and having pocket healers and support, also if you consider magblades more offensive and bursty than magsorcs then....i dont know which game you are playing.
I can show you how much damage curse, frags and fury do with 2500 sd compared to how much swallow soul and merciless do with the same (merciless hits harder than frags but to build it up you need to....kite a lot, guess using what?).
This awesome gap closer you talk about hits like a wet noodle and gets you killed by bringing you in melee range, again, your mentality is for group play with support, i main magblade, its what a play 90% of the time and also my duel pick.

"Magsorcs barely have a burst anymore. Everyone blocks/dodges frags"
Not everyone, decent players only and that is why you need to stun them before firing, same thing with merciless.

Lord-Otto

Wrong.
Curse/Frag/Fury gets blocked and dodged. Every monkey in Cyro dodges regularly. And it hits weaker than any stam burst.
I take Merciless over Frags. Sure, frags are awesome, but procc'ing them? Ever since DB, I frequently have to activate at least five skills to proc it. And then it gets blocked.
Stun your opponent? That's what frags are supposed to do. No, Rune Cage, if you have the space, breaks to easily. Streak is short-ranged and doesn't go through block.
Magblades have a bursty AoE, no Sorc has that. Bombblades are a thing. If you pick magblade for duels... Ooooh, boiiiii.... Aweful. Just... AWEFUL!

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I think we need to look at this on an individual basis because a ranged root and a melee root have a lot of differences on the side. For example...

• Difference 1. A ranged root can be immediately reapplied because the target never leaves the area of threat by rolling out of the root. That isn't the case for a melee root. A melee root puts the caster at risk by virtue of it's range, and when the target rolls out of it, he rolls out of the area of threat. For the caster to recast the root he has to gap close and recast. Talons is one of the more expensive skills on the DK, and the gap closer isn't cheap either making it a very costly combo to spam against a fleeing target.
  
• Difference 2. A ranged root prevents all melee damage. A melee root does not prevent any damage, it prevents escape.
  
• Difference 3 Melee roots come with full risk, Ranged roots come with no risk because the intent and purpose of it is to avoid risk.
  
• Note While Talons without immunity is not an essential part of PvE tanking, it is a very convenient part that people are very accustomed too

So I don't think that a global solution would be accurate to the problem.

One of the immediate concerns I would have as a DK with a talon immunity is what am I getting out of my root that is immediately rolled out of? I'm not getting a root, I'm not getting the dot out of burning talons so what am I getting for such a large cost skill? I'm putting myself at high risk on the front line to root so what reward did I get out of that investment in risk?

I hate roots and snares as much as the next person, but I would encourage everyone - including the devs - to read and reread this before anything happens with roots.

The NB 28 meters away spamming Cripple is way more abusive than a DK spamming talons.

But this also gets us into the kind of hairy position of: What if DK ever gets a vaible gapcloser (which they desperately need imo)? - Most likely non mobile builds will never be able to leave the talonspam again. Especially magica builds.

However i think snares are more of a problem than roots are. I´d probably convert snares into the major minor buff system having a minor 10% snare and a major 30% snare that can stack - and thats it.
Maximum of 40% snare in total. Implement this without changing roots and see how it works out (and eventually alter the snare duration on certain abilities).

Hmm...my reply to all these prognostications that DKs will be the FOTM is call me and the thousands of people who quit playing when it actually happens.

I still see a fundamental difference between a melee root and a ranged root. People may have put the bombard spam meta in some dark, forgotten region of their brain, but I have not. The sorc encase is this weird middle ground, but as it is ridiculously expensive and ridiculously narrow AoE (that somehow can be dodged), I don't have a problem with it.

To be honest, the only issue I have with DK roots is that they do not allow my templar to face in the correct direction to use biting jabs. As long as ZoS fixed that, I don't give a hoot what they do to DKs.

I do agree with you about snares. I do not enjoy that my default movement speed is -40%. Anything larger than 50% is ridiculous and should be reserved for ultimates. And this even goes for PvE. Moving at 10% of your speed in vMA makes me want to throw my computer out the window.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hmm...my reply to all these prognostications that DKs will be the FOTM is call me and the thousands of people who quit playing when it actually happens.

I still see a fundamental difference between a melee root and a ranged root. People may have put the bombard spam meta in some dark, forgotten region of their brain, but I have not. The sorc encase is this weird middle ground, but as it is ridiculously expensive and ridiculously narrow AoE (that somehow can be dodged), I don't have a problem with it.

I look at it that way: If a DK decides to take me out of a fight on my sorc they´re literally the only class able to do so reliably (even if they don´t slot wings).
The same goes for our grps templar.

At this time most DKs don´t have a gapcloser slotted because they don´t have one available that´s worth slotting. If they should ever get one a DK would reliably toast me with the ability to permanently impair movement to zero.

I don´t think of a melee root (combined with a gapcloser) as any different to ranged roots (for smallscale fights) because range is effectively non existant with how the games gapclosers work.

I don´t think DK will ever go back to 1.5 levels of strong because infinite reflect won´t come back and quite frankly said - people have also learned to play (which is a biggy for every class).
But i don´t know how i could combat a DK with the ability to reliably stay in melee range of me (and not only every 8s with petrify). I don´t think i could.

thankyourat

I think zos should just make a root immunity potion. I think that would help solo players deal with roots especially magicka builds. That way no classes will be gutted, but we can still get that root immunity when needed

Armitas

I wonder if they shouldn't just remove the empowered rapids and make a magicka version similar to mist. (Not group wide) Mist is such a pvp staple that it needs to be added to alliance skills. Let people be vamps if they want to be rather than because they almost have to be.